Poliquin's Mega Dose Fish Oil

Nutrition
62

4th and final week is over. I have grown to really dislike taking fish oil supplements.

Interesting experiment. I never did develop the “soft skin” or the surge of energy, which was reported to be some of the primary benefits. In fact, about all I seemed to have gotten is a case of constipation (and the associated bloatedness), plus I gained 4 pounds over the 4 weeks.

I did get a blood workup, which was an adventure in and of itself. Turns out physicians don’t won’t to do a cholesterol screening without seeing the primary doctor first. I finally got that sorted out however and should have the result back early next week.

At this point I can’t personally endorse CP’s high dosage fish oil protocol. The blood test may change my opinion however so I’ll have to wait and see.

TD

63

I dont post a lot but after reading yours i have to say something. I thinks that the current bodybuilding concencus in megadosing fish oil is retarded. Polyunsaturated oils in large dose SUPRESS THE IMMMUNE SYSTEM AND INCREASE CANCER RATES.

  1. Uldall PR, et al. Unsaturated fatty acids and renal transplantation. Lancet 1974; ii: 514.

  2. Pearce M L, Dayton S. Incidence of cancer in men on a diet high in polyunsaturated fat. Lancet 1971; i: 464.

Although dated more than thirty years ago, the above papers detail the use of polyunsaturated fatty acids to suppress the immune system after kidney transplants, and the increase in cancer rates when polyunsaturated oils first entered the food chain in a major way in the seventies.

The use of polyunsaturated oils in treating autoimmune diseases is also well documented.

In reasonable doses I agree that they are likely to be very benefical, but anyone who wants to megadose them (there is no research as to the LONG TERM effects of this) i think needs to seriously rethink their choices. This is mainly directed to the guy with the heart problems, if i were you id be extremely careful with what you decide to take for your condition.

With regards to your heart, after reading the following, I think a magnesium supplement might help you out…

There are stacks of references, of particular note…

I hope this helps you out dude, let me know what you think.

64

Isnt it just like creatine loading? An attempt to get the concentration in your cell walls upto a certain point? Something i think would take awhile with 3g a day.

I think people mistake higher doses for higher effects. Often, if it does anything, is just speed it up.

Nothing magic.

65

[quote]Moomin wrote:
I dont post a lot but after reading yours i have to say something. I thinks that the current bodybuilding concencus in megadosing fish oil is retarded. Polyunsaturated oils in large dose SUPRESS THE IMMMUNE SYSTEM AND INCREASE CANCER RATES.[/quote]

Sorry I can’t post any references at the moment, but I believe the polyunsaturated fat that is the cause of all the problems is the omega 6 linoleic acid, which is found in high amounts in most vegetable oils.

Fish oils have a much higher omega 3 content, and if you’re not cooking with vegetable oil, or eating margarine, and eat mostly whole foods, you’re consumption of linoleic acid should be minimum.

66

I have done this experiment for almost 5 days now. So far, the absolute best effects have been with regard to inflammation (duh!). To elaborate, I have a bulging disc at C5-6 that I keep aggravating, and the process of putting it back in causes a lot of residual inflammation throughout the nerve and makes the symptoms much worse. After my first day, the effects astounded me as I felt absolutely nothing from the previous day, and the effects have remained the same since! I may look into trying to start some research focused directly toward this population.

As a side, I haven’t noticed any fat loss as others have noticed, but the reports of fat loss may have been stalled by my running out of HOT-ROX this past week. As for now, I’ll keep on truckin’ forward.

67

Well, got the test results back… nothing earth shattering as the results were somewhat mixed.

-------------Jan------Apr
Total Chol—117-------98
HDL-----------21-------22
LDL-----------88-------65
VLDL---------8.2-----10.6
Triglyc-------41-------53

(hard to post a table here - results from Jan/07 and Apr/07 bloodwork)

The drop in LDL looks good, but it was ok before. The rise is VLDL is not particularly appealing however as many think this is more important than LDL now. What I was really looking for was an increase in HDL and this was relatively unchanged.

Moomin, I understand your concerns regarding polyunsaturated fats, however I believe Miserere is correct that it is primarily the omega-6’s which are the problem (and are the bulk of the polyunsaturated fats americans take in).

As far as the magnesium, I guess this is one more reason to take ZMA.

Of course my cardiologist’s response was, “I told you not to expect much on the HDL movement”. He was more impressed with the LDL than I was however.

So, in conclusion, will I do it again? No.

I will continue to take 4-6 Flameouts per day however as there is reported anti-inflammatory benefits to DHA and EPA, which is the problem I suffer from. Of course the Zocor (Simvastatin) is supposed to cover this also.

TD

68

Its hard to make my point without going into extreme detail but I am researching this and will probably be writing a paper as a meta analysis on this subject in the future.

Yes misere is correct that the n-3 fatty acid linoleic acid responsible for many of the problems in the western diet. The reason for this is not because linoleic is bad. Quite the contrary, it is an EFA, an essential fatty acid and is therefore necessary for survival. The problem is the total QUANTITY found in the western diet. It is vast excess compared to the amount necessary in the body.

Polyunsaturated oils are extremely vulnerable to oxidative stress, in chemical terms they oxidise easily. It is this physical characteristic that makes them bad in excess. In short what I am getting at is that consuming large amounts makes YOUR cell membranes more vulnerable to oxidative stress as a result.

In biochemical terms the polyunsaturated fatty acids differ little in this respect.

High dose fish oil supplementation at what is currently considered “safe” levels increases laboratory markers of oxidative stress. Many studies have I believe interpreted this information incorretly and presented false conclusions.

EPA and DHA are essential fatty acids and many people are likely to be deficient in them, and sensible supplemetaion is likely to be beneficial. However, I believe the current supplementation concencus of MEGA DOSE fish oil to be madness, and In time this will be proven. Until then its a free for all, as is the rest of the supplement industry, but thats a different discussion entirely…

Our scientific understanding of such matters, despite what people like to think, is actually very limited, and I am of the opinion that caution should always be advised.

In the end, its up to everyone to make their own minds up, but to the guy that inspired me to comment PLEASE take this on board. The original studies in the seventies used heart patients, and many died of cancer instead of heart attacks. Fish oil at sensible levels is likely to do you good, but dont overdo it!

69

Thanks for that post, Moomin. It would be great if you’d let us know when you publish your meta study. And good luck with it!

70

Moomin, thanks again for your posts and your concern.

One of the things I have learned is to listen to my body, and as I posted, I had begun to absolutely HATE taking the fish oil capsules by the last day of the 4th week. This was telling me that something wasn’t right… at least for me as far as this protocol goes.

Also, after the blood test, I see no compeling reason to endorse this for anyone. I never experienced any of the “benefits” purported by others which included:

soft skin, abundant energy, pain free joints.

I did notice a little improvement in my shoulder (old injury), but not enough to justify the large dosages. Also, my skin actually became quite dry and tight (very noticeably), and probably as a consequence of the bloating/constipation I also felt sluggish near the end. So for me, this mega-dosing isn’t a good thing, and won’t be repeated.

Regarding the highly oxidative nature of these EFA’s, part of CP’s protocol includes taking 1700 IU’s of vitamin E to help combat the oxidative stress on the tissues. Whether this is sufficient or not, I can not comment.

So in summary, I’ll just begin a more normal dosage of 4 Flameouts per day and leave it at that.

TD

71

[quote]Moomin wrote:
Yes misere is correct that the n-3 fatty acid linoleic acid responsible for many of the problems in the western diet. The reason for this is not because linoleic is bad. Quite the contrary, it is an EFA, an essential fatty acid and is therefore necessary for survival. The problem is the total QUANTITY found in the western diet. It is vast excess compared to the amount necessary in the body.

[/quote]

Not to get nitpicky here (well maybe a little), but I thought it was Omega 6’s that were out of control in the Western diet?

72

[quote]Tokendude wrote:
Moomin, thanks again for your posts and your concern.

One of the things I have learned is to listen to my body, and as I posted, I had begun to absolutely HATE taking the fish oil capsules by the last day of the 4th week. This was telling me that something wasn’t right… at least for me as far as this protocol goes.

Also, after the blood test, I see no compeling reason to endorse this for anyone. I never experienced any of the “benefits” purported by others which included:

soft skin, abundant energy, pain free joints.

I did notice a little improvement in my shoulder (old injury), but not enough to justify the large dosages. Also, my skin actually became quite dry and tight (very noticeably), and probably as a consequence of the bloating/constipation I also felt sluggish near the end. So for me, this mega-dosing isn’t a good thing, and won’t be repeated.

Regarding the highly oxidative nature of these EFA’s, part of CP’s protocol includes taking 1700 IU’s of vitamin E to help combat the oxidative stress on the tissues. Whether this is sufficient or not, I can not comment.

So in summary, I’ll just begin a more normal dosage of 4 Flameouts per day and leave it at that.

TD[/quote]

TD

Did you change any part of your diet and supplement routine? Me, I just added in more fish oil and a multi-anti-oxidant instead of a single ingredient. Also, if you were already in decent shape (with respect to Omega 3 intake) and just added more it may have had some negative impact.

Someone that is defecient it would help. Someone that isn’t it would hurt.

73

I did notice some rapid fat loss. Also, I had an injury that healed two to three times as fast as it should have. (When I went in to get checked out, my doc said: “You shouldn’t be doing this well for at least another two weeks!”)

But as others have noted, fish oil started to make me literally gag around week 4. I think that’s when you hit your saturation point.

74

Never tried fish oil myself, but i am currently taking Udo’s oil blend. I was wondering if anyone else has taken this? I read somewhere that when producing fishoil they have to use a chemical to seperate the oil from the fish, which can potentially be bad for you. Has anyone else heard this?

75

Thread resurrection…

Is the recommended Fish Oil amounts with regards to body comp based on the EPA/DPA ratios or is it the actual oil itself that has the effect? Obviously, you’re taking in less oil w/ Flameout than with a standard cap, and I’m curious if the body comp benefits are actually related to the physical amount of oil or not.

76

[quote]Dominator wrote:
Thread resurrection…

Is the recommended Fish Oil amounts with regards to body comp based on the EPA/DPA ratios or is it the actual oil itself that has the effect? Obviously, you’re taking in less oil w/ Flameout than with a standard cap, and I’m curious if the body comp benefits are actually related to the physical amount of oil or not.[/quote]

It depends on whose opinion you go by. I will say this, the more time goes by (and therefore, hopefully, more studies) it appears to be the EPA/DHA amounts are what to worry about. However, fat (aka oil) has been known to keep you fuller longer. This hopefully will keep you from being hungry and less likely to snack/eat poorly.

Bottom line just go for the EPA/DHA first and make up any fats with Olive Oil and such.

77

Has anybody seen any any studies on repairing brain damge, or MS treatment with Mega doses?

78

One year bump. Interesting topic.

79

best damn supplement ever, too many noticable benefits to count

currently 36 grams a day here of 180/120