yes I know there isn’t much new material in general, but I do feel when I look back on the last ten years and current , Poliquin has defenitely risen above the rest.
I bet that if anyone actually had a few sessions and had there hormonal profiles done by him they would wake up with a whole new light.
(professor X dont you miss the site when it wasn’t so in your face, when it was info, not ads?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
MISCONCEPTION wrote:
Who remembers the first time you did 1-6, GBC, GVT, isometric deadlfits w a RACK, stretched hipflexors between sets, WHO brought the PW0 nutrition and made it better?
Not me. I was never one of the ones here worrying about which program came out next…which is probably why you are just now figuring out that there isn’t much new info being published. It was never all that new to begin with.
The more experienced you become, the LESS interesting the next new fad becomes.
When I was 16 years old, I believed nearly every ad in every magazine. Now, I don’t even look at ads. I couldn’t tell you what MuscleFleck is selling or how great NOS is…because it doesn’t mean anything to me.[/quote]
I agree, when i was 14 i pretty much followed whatever the messiah at the time said to do. I overtrained so badly i LOST muscle mass 
Its a good thread, so good i felt the need to contribute.
If you want some good books to read heres a few:
1)Supertraining
Author: Mel Cunningham Siff, 2003
2)Science and Practice of Strength Training
Authors: Vladimir Zatsiorski and William Kramer, 2006
4)Starting Strength
Sub-Title: A Simple and Practical Guide for Coaching Beginners
5)The strongest shall survive - Bill Starr
6)One More Rep! Lessons from the World’s Biggest, Strongest, and Best Bodybuilders by John Little
7)The Poliquin Principles: Successful Methods for Strength and Mass Development - Charles Poliquin
8)- Theory and Applications of Modern Strength and Power Methods - Christian Thibaudeau
And what you will come to notice is… you have seen it all before and in 20 years something in those or other books will be put up on an alter and declared the holy grail of bodybuilding programs (sigh)
I fully agree with the T-Nation contributor, people FAR underestimate their bodys ability to handle stress… i have seen people “come down” with overtraining after 1 day of training… after eating 2 fries before working out and mc donalds after… BAH.
As for what you need to do, another somehat contributor these days had this to say:
This is how i judge what i need to do, if my str is going up i keep doing hypertrophy, my str stalls i switch to low reps for awhile to “restart” my system.
Maybe its not 100% scientific but its gotton me well beyond some people on this forum.
Also may i say, that it seems these days that coaches are developing “followers”
I mean HIT have their “jedis” name a random coach and you will find some die hard fans who will protect his name to their keyboards demise.
People seem to be for lack of a better word “seduced” by ideas rather than actually stepping back thinking logically and THEN posting “OMGAWD YOUR THE BEST”
Im sure the internet has done many many positive things for bodybuilding et al. but sometimes you have to wonder how many less people would be suffering paralysis by anyalysis if they only had books to go by.
Then they would HAVE to try it for themselves, rather than leaning back and trawling through the internet looking for “reviews” done by some random joe 150lb’er who wouldnt know a squat from taking a dump.
This thread could so easily be about any coach, every “follower” thinks THEIR coach has invented the miracle program… now if only they realized that every coach is right for 4-6 weeks this place would be filled with 300lbs+ people.
One of the best books I picked up years ago was The Poliquin Principles. Though I don’t care for his occassional hyped-up stories, his ability to cut through some of these bullshit training fads or theories with sarcasm is the tits.
[quote]300andabove wrote:
Also may i say, that it seems these days that coaches are developing “followers”
I mean HIT have their “jedis” name a random coach and you will find some die hard fans who will protect his name to their keyboards demise.
People seem to be for lack of a better word “seduced” by ideas rather than actually stepping back thinking logically and THEN posting “OMGAWD YOUR THE BEST”
Im sure the internet has done many many positive things for bodybuilding et al. but sometimes you have to wonder how many less people would be suffering paralysis by anyalysis if they only had books to go by.
Then they would HAVE to try it for themselves, rather than leaning back and trawling through the internet looking for “reviews” done by some random joe 150lb’er who wouldnt know a squat from taking a dump.
This thread could so easily be about any coach, every “follower” thinks THEIR coach has invented the miracle program… now if only they realized that every coach is right for 4-6 weeks this place would be filled with 300lbs+ people.[/quote]
Sorry LEVEL 0 but im make look young around here but i had my last account frozen for being critical, and before that I was under a different name that didn’t make the transitions, but this all started about under MMIIK, and back then Poliquin and duchaine were what most of us around here looked forward to more than anything else.
As I look back over those last eleven years and how this magazine developed certain strength coaches really paved the way more than others. Not many on here actually work with pro athletes and gold medalists but thats another point ( i digress) when I read programs that are all to familar with what was brought up by Poliquin and king many years ago I see that A they had to replace Poliquin because he is not gonna give much free advice thats the bottom line and king left as well so we had fill ins we never really actually got to see how they develop. As I read more and more, with things that are merely the shadow of the origins. This has nothing to do with the following the mentor of the month.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
In the off-season I like either:
DAY 1. Chest/Biceps
DAY 2. Legs
DAY 3. Back/Triceps
DAY 4. OFF
DAY 5. Shoulders/Traps
DAY 6. OFF
DAY 7. Repeat
or
DAY 1. Chest/Back
DAY 2. Legs
DAY 3. OFF
DAY 4. Arms
DAY 5. OFF
DAY 6. Shoulders
DAY 7. OFF[/quote]
Chris, just wondering why you seem to prefer doing the heaviest most taxing training two or three days in a row instead of splitting them more? In the second split you have chest/back followed by legs and then 5 days less taxing stuff.
Personally, I always feel my nervous system is fried next day or two after a leg or chest/back day.
Good thread.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Seriously though. He trained twice a day, 5 days a week. Same body part both workouts. Heavy lifts in the morning, isolation work in the afternoon.
I’ve heard that works for quite a few at that level even though those like Lee Haney and others would do the larger body part in the morning (like chest) and then come back in the afternoon to either hit a few more sets for chest but to mainly focus on triceps or some other smaller muscle group.
[/quote]
Iv read that Brandon Currey also trains this way.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
This thread needs to be stickied.[/quote]
I thought this only halfway through the first page. This needs to be put up in both the bodybuilding and beginners forum. anyone for it?
The funny or ironic thing is that when I came across Poliquin’s information at 20, it opened my eyes to more useful training methods but it also marked a temporary downfall in my bodybuilding aspirations.
It went something like this…
I saw The Poliquin Principles in the bookstore. Then I googled Poliquin and came across T-Nation. Then I came across a whole slew of other trainers and “nutritionists” on this site and the internet. In hindsight, all of these guys were prescribing methods that bodybuilders do not even use!
So, I went routine to routine of all of these great trainers, Don Alessi, Ian King, and Charles Poliquin and so on. I tried different diets too. I did make progress and gained some muscle and but I never looked like a bodybuilder.
This is also when my training - my passion and hobby - turned into a nightmare! I discussed this in a previous thread on this board. I can find it later. It became a nightmare because I:
Even friends started saying to me “dude, what happened to you? You used to be big!” Funny thing is that I was bigger when I knew less and got more information from bodybuilding sources.
I have yet to see one successful bodybuilder follow a program that looked like it was written by Poliquin. I am sure he knows his stuff when it comes to strength and conditioning. However, I ask without sarcasm or cynicism “why is it that I have never seen a bodybuilder follow a routine that looked like it was prescribed by Ian King and Poliquin?”
Do you think any top WNBF (natural) or IFBB pros follow a chest and back routine that looks like this:
A1) Bench Press
A2) Chinups
B1) Incline Dumbbell Press
B2) Seated rows
Rest period: 1.5 min
Sets: 5
Reps: 5
I think not. No one does anything remotely similar to Ian King either.
I remember Ron Harris stating that there was difficulty in his writing career because the competitors he covered did things so similar that it was tough to make each article he wrote different from one another.
You do know Dorian Yates frequents Poliquin’s centre of excellance for rehabbing ?
And do you know that Miros Sarev also was trained by Poliquin…
Or do you know he has trained multiple mutiple multiple people who needed mass put on in a hurry ??
Or do you know that
IS definately not something Poliquin would write
Or do you know that being overloaded with information would be YOUR fault… not anyone elses… last i checked no one FORCED you to read multiple books/articles.
That is the exact workout Poliquin wrote about here once.
Who said it was not my fault for being overloaded with information?
I already knew Dorian attended Poliquin’s center multiple times.
What you have to realize, is that Poliquin is responsible for a huge shift in the way the west views strength training and weight lifting. Since he is responsible for such a shift in paradigm, of course others are going to sound somewhat similar.
Besides that, it works. I’d rather hear about 1 “thing that works” 5 times, than 5 “things that might work” once.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
That is the exact workout Poliquin wrote about here once.
Who said it was not my fault for being overloaded with information?
I already knew Dorian attended Poliquin’s center multiple times. [/quote]
If you know all of this, then why the attack on Poliquin ?
He is one of 3-4 people responsible for dragging the western world away from 3*10 Canada produced an amazing amount of people in that area in the last 30 years.
Eastern Europe is still without a doubt miles ahead of the western world, and unless we have people like Pierre Le Roy, Poliquin and co. dragging the west along the USA and co will never catch up.
As for who said it was your fault you are implying it in your post no ?
Hmm, I’m with bricknyce… P
Poliquin’s influence may be great in sports, I don’t know, I’m neither an athlete nor someone casually interested in that field.
But in regards to bodybuilding, sorry guys… He influenced a few people maybe, but 99 percent of successful bb’ers have never heard of him…
I own the Poliquin principles (the latest version, I believe) and well… That’s all either common knowledge (and has been long before poliquin came) or stuff that
a) no successful bodybuilder does/would do.
b) is generally obsolete because much faster/simpler methods exist
c) has little to no bearing on results(over-analyzing)/ is utterly trivial.
Not that I’m bashing the man here, he seems to be a god of his own field(athletics/sports s&c)…
And while his methods may work to some extent as far as bodybuilding goes, the alternatives available make them obsolete in my opinion…
Feel free to flame me all the way to hell, but it won’t change my opinion.
On another note, anybody else notice that there are quite a bunch of mistakes/misprints in his books? A table that is supposed to show one thing, but is filled with the wrong data, loads of spelling mistakes and such…
I’ve seen that in both the “principles” and “modern trends” books… Not that important, but kind of weird.
#Edit: I’m from eastern Germany, so if his influence is largely limited to America, then it’s no wonder that nobody over here knows about him…
He supposedly came here for research or something, if I remember correctly… But none of the people active in sports research/weightlifting/athletics/sports medicine from back then seem to know anything about that… Not the ones I or my father know, anyway.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Hmm, I’m with bricknyce… P
oliquin’s influence may be great in sports, I don’t know, I’m neither an athlete nor someone casually interested in that field.
But in regards to bodybuilding, sorry guys… He influenced a few people maybe, but 99 percent of successful bb’ers have never heard of him…
I own the poliquin principles (the latest version, I believe) and well… That’s all either common knowledge (and has been long before poliquin came) or stuff that
a) no successful bodybuilder does/would do.
b) is generally obsolete because much faster/simpler methods exist
c) has little to no bearing on results(over-analyzing)/ is utterly trivial.
Not that I’m bashing the man here, he seems to be a god of his own field(athletics/sports s&c)…
And while his methods may work to some extent as far as bodybuilding goes, the alternatives available make them obsolete in my opinion…
Feel free to flame me all the way to hell, but it won’t change my opinion.
On another note, anybody else notice that there are quite a bunch of mistakes/misprints in his books? A table that is supposed to show one thing, but is filled with the wrong data, loads of spelling mistakes and such…
I’ve seen that in both the “principles” and “modern trends” books… Not that important, but kind of weird.
#Edit: I’m from eastern Germany, so if his influence is largely limited to America, then it’s no wonder that nobody over here knows about him…
He supposedly came here for research or something, if I remember correctly… But none of the people active in sports research/weightlifting/athletics/sports medicine from back then seem to know anything about that… Not the ones I or my father know, anyway.[/quote]
It would be nice if these awesome new bodybuilding methods were published by someone. And why I enjoy Poliquin's work because of the exactness that you deemed trivial. The exactness gives a good starting point when starting a new workout.
Yeah, the Poliquin Principles sucked, no argument there. Ian King's book is far superior, at least to me. Why the mention you beggingly ask? Because, it seems to me that Poliquin borrowed, but gave credit, to Ian King on many of his own theories. Ian King does a better job at explaining his own ideas.
Whatever, I'm enjoying the results I get from magnesium sups and his advanced body comp workout that is all his own. I really enjoy not having to do cardio to lose fat.
CC,
I see we think alike; I mean A LOT alike. I was not bashing Poliquin in my post. What I meant was that his methods are not used by bodybuilders and that aspiring bodybuilders should be cautious as to whose advice they may take on the way up.
There is no doubt that Poliquin is dedicated to his trade, works and studies A LOT, and truly loves what he does! Who would say that is not admirable.
However, I think his expertise is useful in the strength and conditioning world, not in bodybuilding. Well, I can’t say that his information is completely useless for bodybuilding. I have picked up a tip here and there for bodybuilding from Poliquin’s writings.
Contrary to popular belief, the fact is that many top bodybuilders are far from stupid, hence why they are successful. Most of them got to their level of success, not only from genetics, but from being methodical in their approach. The ones that relied more on genetics never reached the upper echelon of pro bodybuilding or never reached their true potential.
I am almost certain that if Poliquin’s methods were of high value for bodybuilding, then many bodybuilders would rely more on his methods. But they don’t! Most big bodybuilders guys I know or know of never even HEARD of him or if they did, never followed any of his material.
AGAIN, this is not to bash him. I give credit for what he does in the S&C and athletic world and for him being a successful and competent professional. Plus, he seems like an overall good guy.
Instead I prefer to get bodybuilding information from BODYBUILDING writers:
CT
Ron Harris
Greg Zulak (I used to love his old Musclemag articles in the '90s and early 2000s; he is a true bodybuilding historian)
Dorian Yates
Skip Lacour
Jeff Willet
Tom Venuto
Dante Trudel
Justin Harris
Fred Dimmena
I only use information from the S&C guys for the areas of structual balance, flexibility, recovery, and some general anatomical and physiological information. I actually use the mobility and flexibility drills written about by Eric Cressey, Mike Robertson, and Mike Boyle. When I write my programs, I also keep their structual balance information in mind too (ie: balancing pushing and pulling exercises, flexibility, one legged exercises like lunges and stepups).
The real beef I have is when these super nerdy S&C guys start bashing bodybuilders, something they have no shame in doing. Meanwhile, BBers don’t bash the S&C community since they pay no attention to it at all. And if they did pay attention, probably wouldn’t bash S&C coaches, I believe.
The thing is that I couldn’t write my own workouts after reading the Poliquin Principles.
Take an article like CT’s “Pump Down the Volume” or “How to Write a Damn Good Program, Parts I and II” or his newbie series, and you can write your own programs for the rest of your strength training carer. And this information is free to us and is beautifully written. I actually refer to these articles when I make adjustments in my training; and they are FAR easier to understand. They also apply to bodybuilding for bodybuilding’ sake.
I think a lot of bodybuilders on this site became jaded when S&C coaches started pointing to bodybuilders and stated that we are training “wrong”, despite the fact that our methods serve our objectives and goals.
By the way, and I ask this being shamelessly sarcastic: “when the fuck did everyone become a ‘fighter’”?
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
By the way, and I ask this being shamelessly sarcastic: “when the fuck did everyone become a ‘fighter’”?[/quote]
Hee hee hee…
Edit: I think we just catapulted ourselves into the top 10 of T-Nation’s “most hated” list…
We did.