Pleasant Surprise...

Training Bodybuilding
21

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
They were 20" in his later run as the Michelin Man. The 15" figure is from his first championship reign.

So far as I know he did not lift weights. So I suppose any added muscle mass in the arms compared to when he was in his prime was only from what might be called the sumo-wrestler effect, with most of the added inches simply being fat, and probably all of the added inches disappearing if he were to get cut again.

A lot of fat guys proud of their arm size would, like the fat Foreman, have very considerably smaller arms if they ever came down or back down to trim condition. Which I think is a contributing reason for why some just will not do that. As a total aside.[/quote]

No offense, but I’ve stood next to the man more than once. That isn’t just fat. If you shake hands with him it feels like he’s going to rip your arms off. He did lift some weights just like Holyfield does (Holyfield used to train at my gym in Houston and he looks WAY smaller in person), however, most of his training surrounded actually getting in a ring for sparring. I have no doubt that if he lost weight his arms would be way bigger than 15". Hell, Holyfield had 17" arms and if you didn’t know who he was, he wouldn’t even stand out compared to bigger weight trainers.

22

[quote]namor wrote:
I would expect most of us would see ourselves as smaller than we truly are because we compare ourselves to people bigger than us thanks to the internet.

Almost everyone on this forum if they have been lifting and eating properly for a few years should be one of the biggest and strongest persons in this gym unless you are in a gym where pros train. If your gym was your only point of reference you would most likely be satisfied with your physical prowess.

However, the second you have access to a larger comparison pool (i.e. the internet) you become exposed to a vast array of people with whom you can compare yourself…suddenly you are no longer as impressive as you seem in your own gym because you are now aware of a lot more people who are bigger and stronger than you. This forces you to adjust your perception of yourself.

I know that if I wasn’t on here or IM I would probably be pretty complacent regarding my lifting because as weak as I am I don’t see anyone at my gym lifting anywhere near the weights I lift. However, the second I come on here (and hang out in the BOI) my perception of myself changes as my lifts are now much less impressive compared to others who post on here. As such, I see myself smaller when I log on here than if I was at the gym.

At the end of the day, I visit T-Nation and read threads like the BOI because I like to see people bigger than me lifting more weight so that my competitive streak drives me to go further. I may never be better than those I compare myself to, but I will be a lot better than I am now just by trying.
[/quote]

Your gym sucks. Your surroundings have much to do with your own progress because, as you pointed out, you tend to gear yourself and your goals around what you see in front of you. If everyone around you is smaller than you, there is little motivation to keep going even further. I ran into that problem in the military and changed gyms because of it. I know in Houston, there is a relatively large population of impressive weight lifters. I may technically be one of the bigger people in the gym, but there is always someone coming through that makes me look like shit and gives me even more motivation to kick it up a notch.

23

The older I get the better I was.

24

[quote]amphibian wrote:
The older I get the better I was.[/quote]

Sucks for you. I can’t say the same.

25

Research shows that men tend to view themselves in a more positive light than they really are, and women tend to view themselves in a more negative light than they really are.

I think many of the guys at T-Nation counteract that tendency through educating ourselves and participating in a larger comparison pool. It’s easy to look at what people are lifting in your local gym and feel buff, until you actually get to know people at the advanced/elite level.

No matter how swole you think you are, there will always be people that are bigger and stronger than you. Knowing that fact is the best motivation for pushing yourself to the next level.

26

I feel so small in the gym (lots of 260+ lean freaks) but outside I am a bit freakish. I know about 2 people who actually lift weights.

27

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
They were 20" in his later run as the Michelin Man. The 15" figure is from his first championship reign.

So far as I know he did not lift weights. So I suppose any added muscle mass in the arms compared to when he was in his prime was only from what might be called the sumo-wrestler effect, with most of the added inches simply being fat, and probably all of the added inches disappearing if he were to get cut again.

A lot of fat guys proud of their arm size would, like the fat Foreman, have very considerably smaller arms if they ever came down or back down to trim condition. Which I think is a contributing reason for why some just will not do that. As a total aside.

No offense, but I’ve stood next to the man more than once. That isn’t just fat. If you shake hands with him it feels like he’s going to rip your arms off. He did lift some weights just like Holyfield does (Holyfield used to train at my gym in Houston and he looks WAY smaller in person), however, most of his training surrounded actually getting in a ring for sparring. I have no doubt that if he lost weight his arms would be way bigger than 15". Hell, Holyfield had 17" arms and if you didn’t know who he was, he wouldn’t even stand out compared to bigger weight trainers.[/quote]

Ah, well that is a key fact. I did not know that he lifted weights, though I’d read a fair bit about him over time, and as a final though I knew inconclusive check, tried seeing if any mention of it on the Internet could be found with Google. Could come up with nothing.

So I qualified the statement as “So far as I know.”

If he hadn’t lifted weights, the sumo-wrestler theory was all that was left for going from 15" to 20".

But given that he did, whereas it’s unlikely that he did in his first title reign as extremely few boxers did so then, it stands to reason he would have added very substantially to his arms in terms of muscular size, and nowhere near as much need be attributed to fat (still easily an inch: even a roughly 1/6th inch layer of sub-Q fat adds an inch to circumference, not even considering intramuscular fat.)

And if he were to cut up while still lifting, then he wouldn’t be back to the ol’ 15’s, just as you say.

Anyway I thought it worth adding that in his second title reign his arms were by no means the 15" figure given in the previous post (which is the official figure that had been put out by the International Boxing Hall of Fame, though no longer is available on their website.)

28

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
They were 20" in his later run as the Michelin Man. The 15" figure is from his first championship reign.

So far as I know he did not lift weights. So I suppose any added muscle mass in the arms compared to when he was in his prime was only from what might be called the sumo-wrestler effect, with most of the added inches simply being fat, and probably all of the added inches disappearing if he were to get cut again.

A lot of fat guys proud of their arm size would, like the fat Foreman, have very considerably smaller arms if they ever came down or back down to trim condition. Which I think is a contributing reason for why some just will not do that. As a total aside.

No offense, but I’ve stood next to the man more than once. That isn’t just fat. If you shake hands with him it feels like he’s going to rip your arms off. He did lift some weights just like Holyfield does (Holyfield used to train at my gym in Houston and he looks WAY smaller in person), however, most of his training surrounded actually getting in a ring for sparring. I have no doubt that if he lost weight his arms would be way bigger than 15". Hell, Holyfield had 17" arms and if you didn’t know who he was, he wouldn’t even stand out compared to bigger weight trainers.

Ah, well that is a key fact. I did not know that he lifted weights, though I’d read a fair bit about him over time, and as a final though I knew inconclusive check, tried seeing if any mention of it on the Internet could be found with Google. Could come up with nothing.

So I qualified the statement as “So far as I know.”

If he hadn’t lifted weights, the sumo-wrestler theory was all that was left for going from 15" to 20".

But given that he did, whereas it’s unlikely that he did in his first title reign as extremely few boxers did so then, it stands to reason he would have added very substantially to his arms. And if he were to cut up while still lifting, then he wouldn’t be back to the ol’ 15’s.

Anyway I thought it worth adding that in his second title reign his arms were by no means the 15" figure given in the previous post (which is the official figure that had been put out by the International Boxing Hall of Fame, though no longer is available on their website.)[/quote]

I seriously doubt they were only 15" back then either. My family…“knows” his family well and most of the guys in his family look like tanks well into their 50’s until old age catches up with them and/or they quit training for anything. Those stats you listed had Ali as having bigger arms…and that’s just retarded.

29

You can’t really compare boxers to guys who primarily focus on lifting and getting huge. Boxers do a ton of running, padwork, sparring and bag work. The bag work alone will help keep muscle size down.
These guys don’t wanna get overly huge with muscle as it limits them in the ring.

Do a check for Frank Bruno, that guy was huge late in his career and actually did a alot of weight training, it really showed in his physique and boxing, very robotic, and got gassed easily but looked like a sculptured greek god. Near the end of his career his was more bodybuilder like than boxer.

30

I gotta say, some of those stats for the HW champs are a little mind-boggling. Tyson and Holyfield with 16" arms??? I remember watching those guys in their prime and thinking how huge they were. 16" at sub-10% BF is still nothing to sneeze at, but man, that’s a little disconcerting.

31

I’m 6’4" 310lbs and feel small. I remember going to hong kong and having old asian women stare at me like I was a freak though. that was funny. I think it’s funny when my mom was walking out of the ER with me one time and someone mentioned how big they thought I was. She said “na he’s just my little guy”.

Like X said you get used to yourself. I always forget how big I am because I’ve been big my whole life. I’ve been busting my ass to get strong and only recently really tried to lean out. People think I look bigger now then 20lbs of fat ago since I now have more definition.

32

[quote]doubleh wrote:
I gotta say, some of those stats for the HW champs are a little mind-boggling. Tyson and Holyfield with 16" arms??? I remember watching those guys in their prime and thinking how huge they were. 16" at sub-10% BF is still nothing to sneeze at, but man, that’s a little disconcerting.

[/quote]

He had 17" arms when fighting. I remember reading that specific number and then seeing him soon afterwards in person. Those measurements are off. There is no way in hell Foreman was smaller than Ali in that department.

33

[quote]Professor X wrote:
doubleh wrote:
I gotta say, some of those stats for the HW champs are a little mind-boggling. Tyson and Holyfield with 16" arms??? I remember watching those guys in their prime and thinking how huge they were. 16" at sub-10% BF is still nothing to sneeze at, but man, that’s a little disconcerting.

He had 17" arms when fighting. I remember reading that specific number and then seeing him soon afterwards in person. Those measurements are off. There is no way in hell Foreman was smaller than Ali in that department.[/quote]

Ya know, off the cuff I would have agreed with you, but googling some old pics I’m not so sure. Granted, the pics are old and quality is poor, but I just don’t see a young Foreman clearly bigger. Later on in his career, yes, absolutely. But not early on.

I think Tyson had bigger arms than 16" as well.

34


Foreman…

35

[quote]doubleh wrote:
Professor X wrote:
doubleh wrote:
I gotta say, some of those stats for the HW champs are a little mind-boggling. Tyson and Holyfield with 16" arms??? I remember watching those guys in their prime and thinking how huge they were. 16" at sub-10% BF is still nothing to sneeze at, but man, that’s a little disconcerting.

He had 17" arms when fighting. I remember reading that specific number and then seeing him soon afterwards in person. Those measurements are off. There is no way in hell Foreman was smaller than Ali in that department.

Ya know, off the cuff I would have agreed with you, but googling some old pics I’m not so sure. Granted, the pics are old and quality is poor, but I just don’t see a young Foreman clearly bigger. Later on in his career, yes, absolutely. But not early on.

I think Tyson had bigger arms than 16" as well.[/quote]

Foreman was known for size and power though. Ali was known for strategy and speed…along with a strong punch. I like these arguments because they never end but I really have a hard time believing Foreman was smaller.

36

Oh, and that 17" was in regards to Holyfield.

37

Just goes to show you need to consider leanness when deciding how impressed to be by arm size. And at the risk of resurrecting a very dead horse, it shows that functional strength doesn’t always translate to massive visible muscle.

38

I’ve been wondering about this lately as well. I’ve put on 40 lbs since November and now within the last month I’ve been called huge, monster, and a couple of other ridiculous adjectives. All by people who don’t work out. I’d say at my gym if there are 30 guys in there at any given time, 10 of them are bigger than me. And if you guys have ever been down the Jersey shore, you’ll know about the tons of big roided out dudes that flock to the clubs down there each summer. Both scenario’s make me feel tiny. As far as the self image thing goes, I weighed 150 lbs at 6 ft tall throughout high school so I think that’s primarily the way I’ll see myself.

I have a hard time believing the boxer stats. Not saying whether they’re accurate or not, just hard to believe that I’m bigger then most of them at weight 230 with 44,16,26,17 . (even considering they’re all much leaner than me). The Holyfiend and Tyson ones suprise me the most. 43" chest? no way.

39

[quote]doubleh wrote:
I gotta say, some of those stats for the HW champs are a little mind-boggling. Tyson and Holyfield with 16" arms??? I remember watching those guys in their prime and thinking how huge they were. 16" at sub-10% BF is still nothing to sneeze at, but man, that’s a little disconcerting.
[/quote]
Maybe they were measuring the arms relaxed rather than flexed?

Still… How tall are these guys? In that picture, I’d guess them at 16-16.5 and very lean if they’re of average height (say, around 5’10). They’re certainly not big, but they both have their elbows bent etc.

40

[quote]forlife wrote:
Just goes to show you need to consider leanness when deciding how impressed to be by arm size. And at the risk of resurrecting a very dead horse, it shows that functional strength doesn’t always translate to massive visible muscle.[/quote]

WTF?