[quote]DukeBoSox wrote:
Squat 1RM: 195 to 325
Deadlift 1RM: 245 to 375
Bench Press 1RM: 195 to 235
Vertical leap: 28 to estimated 30
[/quote]
GOOD RESULTS wat kind of training did u do?
GL
I started off doing more higher rep range/higher volume stuff upper/lower split, and that worked ok for me, but I’ve really thrived since I started 3 day a week Full body workouts with low reps on squats and deads (1-4) and medium range on the assistance work (4-8), with 20-35 total reps per excercise, 4 exercises a session. Now this could just be that I have been eating more and better, and could have nothing to do with the rep ranges, but I like it more.
First off, Good luck to you. I admire the fact that you are actually putting yourself out there and trying to succeed at something you love. I wish I was 6’8" as basketball is my favorite sport. I’d have been one dunking mofo if I was your height.
I’d suggest working on your off hand dribbling and shooting. No one expects a “big” to be able to shoot jump hooks with either hand. I would also suggest you ALWAYS warm up properly and ice your knees/ankles whenever you can after playing. You might want to look into Glucosamine supplementation as well, it’s done wonders for my joints.
Good luck.
[quote]DukeBoSox wrote:
…[/quote]
The program you were using sounds a lot like the 5x5 eclipsegym.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57
that I’ve been getting similar gains off of lately.
I just checked that 5x5 out. Similar to mine now, and I think i might do something like that for my next block. Maybe a 4-5x6 or something.
Hey all,
A little update/question for yall
I’m 243ish right now, Squat is up to 335 or so… I’m pretty much basing that off my improvements in my 3RM from before. Deadlift is 395. VJ I really don’t have anyway accurate way of testing at the moment.
ANYWAY what I wanted to ask is this: I just talked to one of the bball coaches, and they want to bring me in to workout for them sometime in the next two weeks, probably sooner. The problem is that I’ve been following an early offseason plan of increasing base strength and size, and am not nearly in bball shape to show for the coaches.
I really don’t know what this workout will entail, but I’d like to get quicker and be a little better conditioned. Is there anyway to make an appreciable difference in two weeks? I’m basically starting from scratch with these two qualities so I hope so. Thanks guys.
[quote]DukeBoSox wrote:
Hey all,
A little update/question for yall
I’m 243ish right now, Squat is up to 335 or so… I’m pretty much basing that off my improvements in my 3RM from before. Deadlift is 395. VJ I really don’t have anyway accurate way of testing at the moment.
ANYWAY what I wanted to ask is this: I just talked to one of the bball coaches, and they want to bring me in to workout for them sometime in the next two weeks, probably sooner. The problem is that I’ve been following an early offseason plan of increasing base strength and size, and am not nearly in bball shape to show for the coaches.
I really don’t know what this workout will entail, but I’d like to get quicker and be a little better conditioned. Is there anyway to make an appreciable difference in two weeks? I’m basically starting from scratch with these two qualities so I hope so. Thanks guys.[/quote]
Congrats on the progress!
As for trying to improve in two weeks, I don’t think you can make a huge difference physically but you probably can make a mental difference. When I used to run cross-country, it always took a couple of races to “toughen up”.
Through the first few races of the year my times would always improve far faster than what would be expected by my actually conditioning. Go out and do a few tough interval workouts - maybe three - to get a bit more used to pushing yourself hard and then take a few days off before the practice.
I don’t think it will make a huge difference, but it may help a bit. Also, if you are starting from scratch, you likely want to start including general conditioning (mainly interval work) soon.
Also, you should say to your coach that you are out of shape from a cardio perspecitve and explain why. You’ve been focusing on getting bigger and stronger with a fair bit of success. Point out that you have a plan, and your goal is to be in shape for the first day of the try-outs.
Its one thing to be out of shape because its part of your plan and expected at this point in the offseason. Its another to be out of shape becasue you’re lazy.
If you explain it to the coach and point out the progress you have made lifting he should respect that (hopefully, not all coaches know a lot wrt strength and conditioning - see the fittness summit article for an example of a pro trainer who is 15 years out of date).
I’m going to reiterate and improve on most of the comments already posted. My reiteration, ?You came to the right place…? My improvement: ?for half of your training.? Division 1 basketball at the mid-major level is a more classic style of basketball. Yes, at a larger university you would be a three but at this level you are a five, and you are competing with players that will be bigger and stronger than you EVERYNIGHT. Most will not be taller than you but they will have more experience ball-wise and weight room wise (from the year you took off). This is why the site is good for you.
What do you need to do now to fill out that other half? Realize that weights should not be your focus. You have built a base, and you should continue maintaining that. But now you need to work on incorporating all the other aspects of basketball into your workouts.
Now, before I get destroyed from all the dedicated weightlifters who feel that I am crazy to say stop trying to gain realize this?. I am an ex-professional basketball player and I played mid-major Division 1 basketball. I not only love the game but I love weight training, it has been a “cornerstone” for my success and improvements. That last word in quotations is very important for a ball player to realize. I didn’t say it was the REASON, it was A CORNERSTONE.
Basketball is one of the most complex sports to engage, let alone be successful in. Case in point, look at your basketball court in your gym and then turn on a collegiate or professional game… big difference? EXACTLY…
In basketball you incorporate anaerobic and aerobic exercise in perfect harmony. The correct balance of strength, form, footwork, and fast and slow twitch muscle fibers must be found to successfully improve your abilities and outperform others.
“How do I do this?”
After reading the long winded introduction, you may not give a hoot. But this will be the most important information you will need to not only make, but play on the Drexel team.
We are going to skip strength because it already has been discussed ad nauseum. And we will jump into form. This may be the most key aspect for you as a ball player. Many athletes who were not athletic have made a career out of having proper form (see Mike Dunleavy, Pat Garrity, JJ Redick, Dirk Nowitski and the prime example ?LARRY LEGEND?). None of these athletes are overly athletic but they have made a career at having an intangible TOUCH and an extremely HIGH BASKETBALL IQ. Now the IQ part is you to learn on your own, touch (or form) is easy.
Take ten minutes out of your workout to form shoot. Start right under the bucket going through your shooting motion, make five (swishes) before moving back. Do these until you get to the three point line then shoot ten free throws. For every one you miss run and ?Up Back? (that is up and down the court once). Continue shooting your free throws until you hit ten in a row. This should not take you longer than TEN minutes.
Our next area of topic is your footwork. This can be done through consistent work on your post moves. Start slowly going through each move up and unders, drop steps, drop drops and reverse pivots. As you start truly mastering the movements have a friend dish the ball to you (you may not want to ask a chick unless she plays ball ? you want game like passes). Do five reps of each move from the right and left block, this will greatly improve you footwork? REPETITION is key!
Another thing to do is what I call dots. Dots can easily be made and you?ll find them to greatly improve your footwork. Dots look like a five card in a deck of cards. You can draw them on the ground or use little mats. What you are going to do with these are different combinations of movement. You?ll utilize two spots and do ?side to side? movements, you?ll use two to do ?up and back?, you?ll go ?two one two? turns all performed for thirty seconds.
BELIEVE ME? By performing on these you?ll change from an uncoordinated clutz to making your college coaches say ?How did we miss out on this guy??
Now we are on to your fast and slow twitch muscle fibers. In regards to fast twitch muscle fibers you?ll need to do heavy plyometrics. Squat jumps, split squats, bounding, and box jumps, and medicine ball squat backboard touches for 3 sets of 10 reps. Most of those are self explanatory, but for the medicine ball squat backboard touches you stand under the backboard with a medicine ball in between your legs, squat down and jump, slamming the backboard as hard as you can but landing with a solid base.
These improve the fast twitch muscles fibers which are essential for explosiveness and speed. To develop your slow twitch muscle fibers you need to look at extended running. I?d look into do thirteens. To perform these you will run sideline to sideline thirteen times in a minute in 15 seconds, now you may think of this as sprinting, but you will be doing this 5 times with 30 second breaks. Your slow twitch muscle fibers are what you need for endurance/stamina. You will be exhausted, but it will be ten minutes that will be more than worth it.
Lastly you need to play, with whoever, whenever. If you are above the competition, work on stuff you can?t against better players. If you aren?t a dunker, start dunking, if you are a shooter, start shooting. Work on your weaknesses with lesser players so you can make them your strengths when you play better ones. And never take a day off, you don?t need it. If you workout 6 times a week, workout 6 times a week. Not more, not less.
[quote]Stiles55 wrote:
I’m going to reiterate and improve on most of the comments already posted. My reiteration, ?You came to the right place…? My improvement: ?for half of your training.? Division 1 basketball at the mid-major level is a more classic style of basketball. Yes, at a larger university you would be a three but at this level you are a five, and you are competing with players that will be bigger and stronger than you EVERYNIGHT. Most will not be taller than you but they will have more experience ball-wise and weight room wise (from the year you took off). This is why the site is good for you.
What do you need to do now to fill out that other half? Realize that weights should not be your focus. You have built a base, and you should continue maintaining that. But now you need to work on incorporating all the other aspects of basketball into your workouts.
Now, before I get destroyed from all the dedicated weightlifters who feel that I am crazy to say stop trying to gain realize this?. I am an ex-professional basketball player and I played mid-major Division 1 basketball. I not only love the game but I love weight training, it has been a “cornerstone” for my success and improvements. That last word in quotations is very important for a ball player to realize. I didn’t say it was the REASON, it was A CORNERSTONE.
Basketball is one of the most complex sports to engage, let alone be successful in. Case in point, look at your basketball court in your gym and then turn on a collegiate or professional game… big difference? EXACTLY…
In basketball you incorporate anaerobic and aerobic exercise in perfect harmony. The correct balance of strength, form, footwork, and fast and slow twitch muscle fibers must be found to successfully improve your abilities and outperform others.
“How do I do this?”
After reading the long winded introduction, you may not give a hoot. But this will be the most important information you will need to not only make, but play on the Drexel team.
We are going to skip strength because it already has been discussed ad nauseum. And we will jump into form. This may be the most key aspect for you as a ball player. Many athletes who were not athletic have made a career out of having proper form (see Mike Dunleavy, Pat Garrity, JJ Redick, Dirk Nowitski and the prime example ?LARRY LEGEND?). None of these athletes are overly athletic but they have made a career at having an intangible TOUCH and an extremely HIGH BASKETBALL IQ. Now the IQ part is you to learn on your own, touch (or form) is easy.
Take ten minutes out of your workout to form shoot. Start right under the bucket going through your shooting motion, make five (swishes) before moving back. Do these until you get to the three point line then shoot ten free throws. For every one you miss run and ?Up Back? (that is up and down the court once). Continue shooting your free throws until you hit ten in a row. This should not take you longer than TEN minutes.
Our next area of topic is your footwork. This can be done through consistent work on your post moves. Start slowly going through each move up and unders, drop steps, drop drops and reverse pivots. As you start truly mastering the movements have a friend dish the ball to you (you may not want to ask a chick unless she plays ball ? you want game like passes). Do five reps of each move from the right and left block, this will greatly improve you footwork? REPETITION is key!
Another thing to do is what I call dots. Dots can easily be made and you?ll find them to greatly improve your footwork. Dots look like a five card in a deck of cards. You can draw them on the ground or use little mats. What you are going to do with these are different combinations of movement. You?ll utilize two spots and do ?side to side? movements, you?ll use two to do ?up and back?, you?ll go ?two one two? turns all performed for thirty seconds.
BELIEVE ME? By performing on these you?ll change from an uncoordinated clutz to making your college coaches say ?How did we miss out on this guy??
Now we are on to your fast and slow twitch muscle fibers. In regards to fast twitch muscle fibers you?ll need to do heavy plyometrics. Squat jumps, split squats, bounding, and box jumps, and medicine ball squat backboard touches for 3 sets of 10 reps. Most of those are self explanatory, but for the medicine ball squat backboard touches you stand under the backboard with a medicine ball in between your legs, squat down and jump, slamming the backboard as hard as you can but landing with a solid base.
These improve the fast twitch muscles fibers which are essential for explosiveness and speed. To develop your slow twitch muscle fibers you need to look at extended running. I?d look into do thirteens. To perform these you will run sideline to sideline thirteen times in a minute in 15 seconds, now you may think of this as sprinting, but you will be doing this 5 times with 30 second breaks. Your slow twitch muscle fibers are what you need for endurance/stamina. You will be exhausted, but it will be ten minutes that will be more than worth it.
Lastly you need to play, with whoever, whenever. If you are above the competition, work on stuff you can?t against better players. If you aren?t a dunker, start dunking, if you are a shooter, start shooting. Work on your weaknesses with lesser players so you can make them your strengths when you play better ones. And never take a day off, you don?t need it. If you workout 6 times a week, workout 6 times a week. Not more, not less.
[/quote]
This sounds like some pretty good advice. There are only a couple (minor) things I would change.
-
for the form shooting, I would stop at about 15 feet and use the time saved to work on hook shots. Perhaps do the same thing out to 10 feet.
-
You probably don’t need too much plyometrics. Basketball is inherently plyometric in nature so this is the first thing I would cut if you are getting sore joints/tired. Plus, you aren’t trying to be a MJ like player. Many big men have had great college careers without being all that explosive. For a first hand example, watch Hansbrough next year (sorry, had to rub it in a little).
-
Playing often is important, but I think skill work (practicing post moves especially) would be more beneficial than playing against crappy players. Try to be a bit selective in when you play and who you play with as your body can only take so much abuse (and basketball is hard on you). If you end up playing in a low-level game, that is the perfect time to work on weaknesses or moves you are trying to perfect. Its always different when there is a defender.
All in all, I agree with this post far more than I disagree (and he certainly knows more about basketball than I do). The footwork stuff was really great advice. I’ve heard of the dot-drill before, and good footwork in the post is key.
Yes, plyometrics are inherent in the game, but you need to train for that explosiveness. I was not telling him to perform these to get a better vertical leap but he needs it to generate power. You can squat all day and not be able to power through an opponent when his 6’8’’ 250 lb frame is banging against you. To use your example OBoile, Hansborough. His whole game is explosiveness.
That is a common misconception for the novice basketball eye. Big men do not glide like Clyde, certainly aren’t refered to as “His Airness”, and can’t do 360 windmills like VC, but they are explosive. Guards are able to use their explosiveness for sweet dunks and flashy play, big men need it to drive through fouls (which are often missed more than called) and power through bodies.
In regards to playing, I stated earlier about moves and assumed (and DUKE you better be) he was taking allotted time for skill work, but playing is key. When you are a ball player you play everyday whereever you can get it. Especially when your behind. First off, its the best conditioner and secondly it puts you in a game like situation constantly.
By the way, thanks for the compliment OBoile…
Thanks a lot for such a thorough post… I really did get a lot from that so your time isn’t wasted here. A lot of your suggestions I’ve been planning on following in my long term strategy to make the team (which I assumed my tryout would be in early october) but this workingout for the coaches soon was kind of unexpectedly sprung on me. I think that mainly it’ll be them looking to see if I have potential enough to make the team, and I’m pretty confident I do.
As a note to O’boile I work 90-95% on my shot within say 17 ft or so, but as far as bigmen go I’m pretty good from beyond the arc, and having watched my team’s games, the 4 or 5 position players are occasionally asked to help out at the perimeter, and I’d like to have a shot that would make defenders play up on me and free up some other players. So I like to keep a little bit of my practice time devoted to outside shooting.
[quote]Stiles55 wrote:
Yes, plyometrics are inherent in the game, but you need to train for that explosiveness. I was not telling him to perform these to get a better vertical leap but he needs it to generate power. You can squat all day and not be able to power through an opponent when his 6’8’’ 250 lb frame is banging against you. To use your example OBoile, Hansborough. His whole game is explosiveness.
That is a common misconception for the novice basketball eye. Big men do not glide like Clyde, certainly aren’t refered to as “His Airness”, and can’t do 360 windmills like VC, but they are explosive. Guards are able to use their explosiveness for sweet dunks and flashy play, big men need it to drive through fouls (which are often missed more than called) and power through bodies.
In regards to playing, I stated earlier about moves and assumed (and DUKE you better be) he was taking allotted time for skill work, but playing is key. When you are a ball player you play everyday whereever you can get it. Especially when your behind. First off, its the best conditioner and secondly it puts you in a game like situation constantly.
[/quote]
You’re wrong about Hansbrough. He has lots of strength, great hands and great balance, but very little explosiveness. At 6’9" the guy has to really gather himself to dunk. He is not an explosive athlete and he is not a “reactive” athlete. The power he displays has nothing to do with reactive ability and everything to do with weight room strength.
Compare him with Oden, Terry, Noah, Wright or even McRoberts. All of those guys get up much quicker due to their superior reactive ability. They take a much quicker counter movement when they jump than Hansbrough does.
Its not just me saying Plyometrics are overrated for a basketball player. Ben Cook (UNC S & C coach from 1994 to 2001) says the same thing in his book Total Basketball Fittness. He states, as I do that the sport is inherently plyometric in nature and thus plyometric training should be kept to a minimum.
Plyometrics also happen be over trained in many cases. To quote Kelly Bagget in this article Vertical Jump FAQ
"Most of the sports involving lots of jumping inherently involve excessive amounts of activity to begin with.
A perfect example is basketball. The avg basketball player runs over 5 miles during the course of a game and jumps 100’s of times. Would you take a sprinter and train him by having him run marathons?
Consider that most basketball players play year around multiple times weekly and this volumous training has a negative influence on the capacity to display bouts of extreme fast twitch characteristics like jumping or sprinting short distances."
DukeBoSox, if you feel the need to work on power outside of playing regularly, I would stick to low impact activities like DE squats, or olympic lift variations. Box jumps would also be okay as they are fairly low impact.
I would listen to Stiles55 on just about everything else - especially the drills, but on this issue, I’m sure I’m right. Also, if you are a decent 3-pt shooter and the bigs at your school have a chance to shoot them, then by all means, practice it.
OBoile, it is no use getting in a pointless argument over what you think and/or read. I’ve read a lot as well, and I wasn’t stating anything from what I read. I write on what I know and what I’ve done. As a 6’8" 250 lb ball player, plyometrics has been one of the catalysts in my improvement throughout playing. You are obviously a big fan of UNC (I’m actually thinking you may go there) but I challenge you to do this, power through someone (well you’ll need a couple people to match what Hansborough drives through) and see if you can do it without power and explosiveness… YOU CAN’T…
You can have this one if you want it, cause honestly this conversation is wasting Duke’s time, but I speak from experience. Textbooks may say its the wrong thing, but almost every college trainer will have you performing them. We can ask Duke about that next year. Remember, Columbus thought the world was round… every book and cultural sentiment said it was flat, he proved it by doing it.
I’m loving this thread man, Keep up the good work Duke. I’m taking all this advice in as well. I’m more of a guard type player at 6’7 1/2" and 220lbs, 7’4 wingspan… who is desperately trying to up his poor squat 
[quote]Stiles55 wrote:
OBoile, it is no use getting in a pointless argument over what you think and/or read. I’ve read a lot as well, and I wasn’t stating anything from what I read. I write on what I know and what I’ve done. As a 6’8" 250 lb ball player, plyometrics has been one of the catalysts in my improvement throughout playing. You are obviously a big fan of UNC (I’m actually thinking you may go there) but I challenge you to do this, power through someone (well you’ll need a couple people to match what Hansborough drives through) and see if you can do it without power and explosiveness… YOU CAN’T…
You can have this one if you want it, cause honestly this conversation is wasting Duke’s time, but I speak from experience. Textbooks may say its the wrong thing, but almost every college trainer will have you performing them. We can ask Duke about that next year. Remember, Columbus thought the world was round… every book and cultural sentiment said it was flat, he proved it by doing it. [/quote]
Stiles55, you are right, this is nit-picking over a fairly minor topic. I re-read your origional post which said the following:
"These improve the fast twitch muscles fibers which are essential for explosiveness and speed. To develop your slow twitch muscle fibers you need to look at extended running. I?d look into do thirteens.
To perform these you will run sideline to sideline thirteen times in a minute in 15 seconds, now you may think of this as sprinting, but you will be doing this 5 times with 30 second breaks. Your slow twitch muscle fibers are what you need for endurance/stamina. You will be exhausted, but it will be ten minutes that will be more than worth it."
I think you and I disagree on what exactly is a plyometric exercise and what is power. Most of the exercises you give aren’t really plyometric in nature, or are very low intensity.
Plyometric ability refers to reactive strength. That is, there is an initial counter movement which results in energy being stored in the muscles/tendons which is then released when the muscle contracts and results in significantly greater force. This is largely an involuntary action. Examples of this would include a one-foot take-off on a high jump or dunk, or a two-foot takeoff following a jump stop.
Guys like Kobe and especially TJ Ford are great examples of reactive jumpers. These are the guys that just seem to bounce up. True plyometric exercises like depth-jumps are good for training this, although in truth I think it is hard to make huge gains. Things like sprinting and repeated jumps with as short a time spent on the ground as possible would be examples of lower intensity plyometric activities.
Most big men fall into the category of a strength jumper. Compare the way Shaq jumps to how Iverson or Kobe jumps. The typical drop-step dunk that Shaq does has a very small reactive component. The power for the jump is also almost entirely voluntary in nature. Almost all the power displayed there is strength based. Same goes for Hansbrough - in fact, I can’t think of a good player with less reactive ability.
When a “strength jumper” jumps, it looks like it takes far more effort than a reactive jumper. Compare how Hansbrough looks when he “powers up” for a jam compared to somone like T-Mac who just seems to bounce up effortlessly (not that it actually is effortless). This doesn’t mean they are necessarily bad jumpers (Dwight Howard is a prime example of a great strength jumper - although he has some good reactive ability as well) however Hansbrough’s jumping ability is average at best.
This type of power can be trained using a bunch of techniques including:
Box Jumps
Olympic lifts and their variations
Dynamic Effort Squats
Medicine ball throws
Any other activity where you accerate a weight quickly
I agree that it is important to be powerful. However, I don’t think most basketball players need to increase their reactive ability since they get a lot of reactive work just through playing. Also, its pretty hard on your joints (particularly if you are 6’8" and 240 lbs). Doing some of the 2nd list of exercises will increase a players power/rate of force and is lower impact. Watch an olympic weightlifter and tell me you don’t think he could “power through someone” yet the majority of his power is developed through in the weight room.
As for UNC ties, I have none. I actually live in Canada. I’m a big college basketball fan however and UNC is the team I cheer for (you pretty much have to pick a “bandwagon” team up here as they are the only ones that we get on TV regularly). As for the “textbook” I quoted, it was written by UNC’s former basketball strength coach and had the routines actually performed by their players. The plyometric work was minimal and always done as the final component of some drill (i.e. do some sort of activity like a 3-man weave followed by 10 backboard touches).
Doing some low-intesity jumps are fine, however they would be the first thing I would cut if you start getting sore knees or other joints. They are largely redundant as players jump alot while playing (and playing is definitely more important at this stage, earlier in the year I strongly believe that playing should be limited to a couple of times per week) and it is easy to overtrain with jumping.
As far as improving your shooting, these videos did wonders for me. If youre going to play the 4 its really important that you can hit the midrange jumper and shoot free throws well.