I’ve seen the gear vs. RAW debate rage several times on this site, and I have one question that keeps cropping up internally that I never ask (I’m a bit of a lurker).
First off, let me qualify some things before I ask the question so my intentions aren’t misunderstood. Namely, I’m not a powerlifter and have no plans currently. I’m relatively indifferent as to raw vs. gear. Having said this, my question may seem somewhat pointed, but to ensure the altruism of the debate I intend to generate, I add this qualifier:
If you think the answer to the question is “Gear is excessive, RAW for life!”, you should probably post elsewhere (not to say that raw lifters shouldn’t read the post, just please don’t turn it into another raw/gear [tastes great/less filling] debate).
Now my question,
At what point does gear in powerlifting become excessive?
Raw proponents often offer the “forklift” argument and I think that implies a slippery slope that doesn’t necessarily exist (e.g. a golf ball can easily be propelled >400 yds. but nobody shows up at the course with a golf cannon). However, If I made a shirt/suit of a contractile polymer that responded to human sweat or body temperature that literally COULD bench on its own (on a mannequin, or even “lying on a bench”) would it get used, banned, or largely disregarded? If it wasn’t banned, would YOU use it?
Sorry that it’s more than one question, but it’s a topic I’ve mulled over for a while.
As long as you are lifting within the rules of the federation it is not excessive. From an outsiders view a lot of sports and activities have their respective excessives. Is the drug use by pro bodybuilders excessive, to me as an outsider yes, to a competitive bodybuider, probably no.
To be honest, I don’t think people know yet. I’ll start with an example that some people might find contradictory, yet it is very common.
Guys on steroids who squat in double ply canvas suits on top of double ply poly briefs while wearing 2.5m knee wraps and elbow sleeves will throw hissy fits if someone suggests allowing straps for the deadlift. Guys with very poor grips even scoff at allowing such an aid. So even people who are liberal in some respects have absolute limits in other areas. I cannot recall any legitimate powerlifting federation allowing these in any division. Strongman doesn’t count because they’re all about the cheater gear. <–Just a joke.
Some people have already drawn their own line - at raw, single ply, etc. So the membership of some of these organizations could be a decent indicator of how people will vote currently. But the question at hand is how liberal will the ones in the multi-ply feds go.
I honestly don’t see stuff getting too much beyond the kind of equipment available today. I think things about the equipment might change (seamlines, material, methods of tweaking it), but I just don’t see much acceptance for anything moving beyond that. Perhaps I’m wrong.
You misunderstand my question, not so much “What IS excessive (according to a given federation)?” but “What WOULD BE excessive (by any federation standards, anywhere i.e. taboo)?” And not to offend, but of course, to an outsider, mere participation would/could seem excessive.
RickJames,
“I honestly don’t see stuff getting too much beyond the kind of equipment available today.”
To be clear, even if it added #s to the lift (above and beyond what current gear can do), you think it wouldn’t get used? Would you use it if it did?
“I honestly don’t see stuff getting too much beyond the kind of equipment available today.”
To be clear, even if it added #s to the lift (above and beyond what current gear can do), you think it wouldn’t get used? Would you use it if it did?[/quote]
If it took too much human effort and reward out of PL training, I don’t think it’d get used. Even at the level of multi-ply gear, it’s still a sport and requires years of mastery to get good at. Just look at Mendelson - strongest raw bencher ever, but he can’t come within 100lbs of Rychlak in a shirt. Obviously using a shirt is much more difficult than using a forklift to do all the work. When these lines actually become blurred, I think that is where the limits will lie at most.
However, I really don’t think the nature of equipment is going to change much in the future. A controlling hand will be federations in general. If there is more consolidation, I think there will be more gear restrictions. With more federation proliferation, I think there will be less restrictions in certain feds.
If the sport of it is taken out of powerlifting, it will no longer be interesting.
if you’re saying you’ve developed a new shape/memory polymer, I would just go ahead and develop a shirt.
if you build it, the people will come buy it or at least try it out, as long as it’s built within the rules of the competing federation(s). I’m sure that if some sort of equipment really made that big of a difference, it’d be outlawed, such as with the strap example before (which makes sense, if you cannot hold onto a given weight, how can you be expected to lift it?).
I haven’t got a NEW polymer, but, like I said, I’ve seen the “forklift” argument a few times and know that even an average (or above average, my ideals may be skewed) chemist or engineer could come up with something superior to multi-ply denim (maybe not superior cost-wise). But, judging from RickJames’ answer it seems that there wouldn’t be a demand for gear that works on a level greater than storing/generating kinetic energy with tension/compression. I agree with him on the fact that stitching, materials, and tweaking will continue to make the “groove” easier to learn and the % recovery of KE greater, but it sounds like anything that goes beyond that would be “cheating”. (This is based solely on RickJames’ input, any others?)
If you come out with a better shirt or suit that gives the lifter an advantage, the Powerlifting world will beat a path to your door. I disagree with Rick when he says that this is all the further equipment will go. Back 20 years ago I heard that about single ply and look where we are now. What is to stop a federation allowing straps or some kind of grip aid for the deadlift? Why not? The lifter is still using the major muscles of his legs and back. It still takes some skill and years of mastery to perform such a lift. Why doesn’t Inzer develop a tiny hydraulic cylinder in the shoulders of a bench shirt. Maybe it could be an implant with the hydraulic fluid being the users own blood. There you go. Then the lifter is using their own skills.
My point is that the PL world has not evolved beyond the basic premise behind a bench shirt or squat suit. They have gotten better at making these items, but there are no metal springs, hydraulics, etc. anywhere. The PL world does not allow elbow wraps when benching, straps when deadlifting, a stool to squat down on, etc. Lines have been drawn even though other boundaries have been pushed.
Another limiting factor is cost. We have the ability to make all kinds of contraptions to help us lift, but it would be cost prohibitive for the average powerlifter.
And if guys who are using all available gear are vehemently against the use of something as simple as straps, that should give you an idea as to how the current gear actually aids the lifts. The people that know the gear and use it still view powerlifting as the same sport with gear included, but view something like straps as too much of a deviation. Are all these multi-ply guys just that deluded? No, not at all.
Like I said, if it takes too much of the sport out of powerlifting, it’s not going to be too popular.
To some nothing, to others everything. It’s not a valid question, but it is a current aurgument hence all the federations with wildly different rules. Raw, single ply up to triple ply. Personnally single ply is enough to keep things safe and still test ones strength, everything beyond that tends to get out of proportion to the actual strength of the individuals competing.
[quote]lucasa wrote:
Crow,
You misunderstand my question, not so much “What IS excessive (according to a given federation)?” but “What WOULD BE excessive (by any federation standards, anywhere i.e. taboo)?” And not to offend, but of course, to an outsider, mere participation would/could seem excessive.
RickJames,
“I honestly don’t see stuff getting too much beyond the kind of equipment available today.”
To be clear, even if it added #s to the lift (above and beyond what current gear can do), you think it wouldn’t get used? Would you use it if it did?[/quote]
[quote]Basso wrote:
Personnally single ply is enough to keep things safe and still test ones strength, everything beyond that tends to get out of proportion to the actual strength of the individuals competing.
[/quote]
It depends on what single ply you are using. Using a tight Rage X is in some cases better than double denim for instance.
overall it’s already excessive. I think at whatever point the use of gear moved from simply being a minimal protective measure to a significant aide to the lift is when it became excessive. While I don’t fault the makers of these products as they’re just capitalizing on the advances in technology and know how, I think it’s up to the federations to crack down on the use of canvas, denim and multiple layers of support. And quite frankly its up to the fans as well, since it?s the fans who dictate a lot of the direction of the sport. If people want to see a 1,000 lb bench and don’t care what type of shirt the guys wearing, then so be it. That’s where the sport goes. But if enough people turn their back on triple ply shirted lifts, etc, then I think the federations would scale back a bit. I think the problem is sort of addressed by having multiple federations, if you like minimal equipment and stricter rules then the USAPL or AAU is for you, if you don?t mind the multiple plys and questionable ranges of motion then there are plenty of federations out there to entertain you as well. IMHO If you can’t safely move the weight without the cocoon then you can’t move the weight.