Please, won’t someone think of the CHILDREN!?!
(figured if we pulled out the Hitler thang, might as well go for more histrionics)
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
McDonalds pays more.[/quote]
Depends on how you break down the pay rates of the military. The military actually pays pretty well, especially for those with little work experience, no technical skills, and no formal education, which is the vast majority of new recruits.
[quote]Gael wrote:
No. Reread. “If you follow orders that require you to go against your conscience, you are not a hero. You are a moral coward.” This holds true regardless of what your specific moral convictions are.
[/quote]
see this type of absolutism is easy to say, like saying “If you don’t throw a rope to a drowning man you are a murderer.”… well what if I don’t have arms, or I don’t have a rope and I can’t swim?
Most things are never so black and white
[quote]malonetd wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
McDonalds pays more.
Depends on how you break down the pay rates of the military. The military actually pays pretty well, especially for those with little work experience, no technical skills, and no formal education, which is the vast majority of new recruits.[/quote]
Not to mention health care, housing, chow hall benefits. I think you’re doing a little better then Mcdonalds. As an e-3 I even got extra pay to live off base.
D
[quote]Dedicated wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
McDonalds pays more.
Depends on how you break down the pay rates of the military. The military actually pays pretty well, especially for those with little work experience, no technical skills, and no formal education, which is the vast majority of new recruits.
Not to mention health care, housing, chow hall benefits. I think you’re doing a little better then Mcdonalds. As an e-3 I even got extra pay to live off base.
D[/quote]
Exactly. The comparisons to fast food only work when you assume a service member is on call at all times. Then the salary is broken down by 24 hours in the military, as opposed to a 6 or 8 hour shift at a fast food joint.
[quote]lixy wrote:
For what it’s worth, I believe you romanticize the military and extrapolate the patriotism of your acquaintances to the rest. The US is peculiar like that. Don’t know if it’s Hollywood or something else that’s causing this distortion in the mind of Americans, but it is there. You folks worship the military more than any other place.
[/quote]
I probably do romanticize them to a certain extent. I’ve only had good experiences. But I also think you demonize the military and America’s policies so maybe we are just the flip sides of the same coin.
it’s good to have both sides speaking on an issue.
[quote]Gael wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
…
You launched right into Hitler, Nazi’s and atrocities. Why did you introduce this into the discussion?
“Hate the leader, not the troops” did not apply then, so why should it apply anywhere?[/quote]
Of course it applied then. Learn some fucking history. Not all Germans were Nazis and not all German soldiers were treated as such or hated.
German prisoners of war in America were actually pretty popular in the local communities.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
McDonalds pays more.
Depends on how you break down the pay rates of the military. The military actually pays pretty well, especially for those with little work experience, no technical skills, and no formal education, which is the vast majority of new recruits.
Not to mention health care, housing, chow hall benefits. I think you’re doing a little better then Mcdonalds. As an e-3 I even got extra pay to live off base.
D
Exactly. The comparisons to fast food only work when you assume a service member is on call at all times. Then the salary is broken down by 24 hours in the military, as opposed to a 6 or 8 hour shift at a fast food joint.[/quote]
I know but it illustrates the point that joining the Army is not a get rich quick scheme.
Iraq: rant
Wait a minute . . . .I thought we were bringing democracy to a people who sorely wanted it. Now you are telling me we were protecting our freedom? I would have thought bringing down a tyrant would have been the next reason. No wait, it is because there are WMDs pointed at us right now isn’t it? Sorry, it is because Iraq gave money to Al-quieda. Right?
All of these things have one thing in common. They are all misleading.
My freedom is always under attack. Why wont we go after those guys?
OH RIGHT - they are the ones that get to send our troops to other countries and fuck them up.
I am so confused but that is a topic for another thread.
Sociopathic and Psychopathic Tendencies:
First thing is first - Anyone deranged enough to put the event on video tape needs serious medical help. When he does it again with something or someone larger we should know we had fair warning.
Second - It is reprehensible what this solider did. I think he should be punished and he would be very upset if I was the one doing the punishing. I have some serious issues with animal cruelty.
While I do not condone this terrible act I can understand where it came from. The government does not make these men and women into killing machines. They give them the means and opportunity to do it but the only thing that makes someone act in any particular way is their environment. Someone trying to kill you changes the rules a bit. Waiting around for months on end for someone to try and kill you changes the rules a bit.
mmllcc may kill sheep for food or he may get his jollies watching another living thing suffer or die. I do not know. I knew kids that would torture animals for fun. Most are or will be in jail.
Violence against the defenseless, for violence sake, is an act of cowardice and is designed to feed a psychosomatic malfunction that is not easily explained. The hard thing for most sane people is that we must admit that there is no one reason or root cause of that triggers these terrible acts.
Lastly:
Knowing men and women who have served our country I would think that his military brethren would exact a very different kind of justice. This is a blight on the armed services. To all of the people who have served before and all the people who will serve after. Having done it is one thing. Having done in it in a forum that was capable of broadcasting it to the rest of world and disgracing the US Armed forces is something totally different.
The kid is a shitbag and should get what is coming to him. I know a few Marines who have told me if they had 5 minutes with him he would not have the ability to throw anything ever again.
[quote]MikeShank wrote:
Hey Guys,
A member of my gym made a comment the other day about our military that didn’t sit well with me. I wanted the opinion of the people on T-Nation about it, particularly those who have served in the armed forces.
The story about the solider who had thrown the puppy off a cliff in Iraq had come up the other day.
A lady in the room made the comment: “Well, what else do you expect. They train these young kids to become killing machines. This is what happens”.
I would like to hold what was my response until I see what the people on here think.
Thanks,
Mike Cruickshank [/quote]
As a former soldier her comment doesn’t bother me in the least. I’d take it with a grain of salt. She is an ignorant fuck and I wouldn’t bother to explain to her why. She knows little of the subject and it would be a waste of oxygen to educate her.
If she directed the comment to me I would respond to her on a much more personal level.
Makavali,
I’ve seen that essay before. Excellent analogy to this story and it cuts to the core of the issue. The sheep feel safe again. Time for them to think about getting rid of the dogs.
After 5 pages of discussion it certainly seems that T nation could use a shot of T itself. It wasn’t professional but it was a dog. Have an NCO deal with it and move the fuck on.
[quote]mmllcc wrote:
STFU you idiot. I have killed many an animal in my life. I just cut the throat of a sheep and put it in my freezer the other day. [/quote]
Killing an animal for sustenance, clothing or self-defense is one thing. Killing them for fun is totally different.
Not to mention that what we have here is a harmless puppy. How anyone can be defending this heinous act and equate it to slaughtering livestock is beyond me.
[quote]will to power wrote:
Makavali wrote:
will to power wrote:
How exactly were Iraqis threatening your freedom?
I was more pissed at this comment: “Well, what else do you expect. They train these young kids to become killing machines. This is what happens”
As far as I’m concerned, the soldier did their job. The fault lies with the people who organized such a half assed occupation. But I’m sure Saddam was a nice enough guy. You know, aside from gassing villages and such.
I love how any time someone questions the motives, execution and morality of the invasion it means they’re supporting Saddam. I’ve hated Saddam probably longer than you knew who he was, and what he did hits a damn lot closer to me than you so don’t give me that bullshit. The point was, whatever you want to say about the troops, the job they have been given isn’t defending your freedom.[/quote]
Actually, I worked quite close with many in the military intelligence field during the invasion. If the public knew what those with high enough clearance found out right after the invasion you would reconsider your statement and probably send the Pentagon roses for a year.
There were plans well underway in Iraq by Saddam and other groups he was working with that would have made 9/11 look like a day at the park. They weren’t just on paper either. They were very well laid plans and they had most of what they needed already set up. These operations were well underway.
You might want to look at this:
Enriching yellowcake for use as a dirty bomb component is not trivial, but not hard either. Saddam had the facilities and people all set up to do this.
Spend a few minuted thinking about what that stuff can do to the human body.
I guess I have to agree that their job wasn’t to defend our freedom. It was to defend our lives.
[quote]lixy wrote:
mmllcc wrote:
STFU you idiot. I have killed many an animal in my life. I just cut the throat of a sheep and put it in my freezer the other day.
Killing an animal for sustenance, clothing or self-defense is one thing. Killing them for fun is totally different.
Not to mention that what we have here is a harmless puppy. How anyone can be defending this heinous act and equate it to slaughtering livestock is beyond me.[/quote]
no… let’s not twist what is being said.
No one is defending the actual action, what they are doing is putting it in perspective.
You do this all the time lixy. I’ve seen you compare events in relation to the tragedy of the taking of human lives.
So no, no one here is saying the soldier was right to kill the puppy. What they are saying is in relation to the tragedy of the war, the deaths of people, that there are animals killed every day, it has a place far below those events on the outrage for the world scale.
[quote]RWElder0 wrote:
Iraq: rant
mmllcc may kill sheep for food or he may get his jollies watching another living thing suffer or die. I do not know. I knew kids that would torture animals for fun. Most are or will be in jail.
[/quote]
I kill coldly. Killing a sheep is no more to me than breaking a glass or a machine - or whatever. Animals – all of them fit into that category (and no I do not put animals and humans into the same category). I don’t get pleasure or guilt from killing anything.
However – if one does think it is funny to kill an animal. Whatever. Some people like to smash cars with a sledge at the county fair. Some people like to throw dogs off of cliffs. Not that animal cruelty should be condoned; but it should not be met with such emotional calls of justice either - especially considering the far greater human injustices in the world - all that said there is a difference between cruelty to an animal to get off on it and killing them.
At most the offending marine should have been told to quit wasting time and ordered to a do a few push ups for being a dick.
[quote]RWElder0 wrote:
Iraq: rant
The kid is a shitbag and should get what is coming to him. I know a few Marines who have told me if they had 5 minutes with him he would not have the ability to throw anything ever again.
[/quote]
All the Marines I know think that this is Much Ado About Nothing. The Marines you speak of exemplify everything that is wrong with the Marine corps today. I guarantee you Chesty Puller could care less if these Marines though a puppy or a cow over a cliff. Although - he would have preferred that they not waste their energy and instead throw an Iraqi.
[quote]mmllcc wrote:
RWElder0 wrote:
Iraq: rant
mmllcc may kill sheep for food or he may get his jollies watching another living thing suffer or die. I do not know. I knew kids that would torture animals for fun. Most are or will be in jail.
I kill coldly. Killing a sheep is no more to me than breaking a glass or a machine - or whatever. Animals – all of them fit into that category (and no I do not put animals and humans into the same category). I don’t get pleasure or guilt from killing anything.
However – if one does think it is funny to kill an animal. Whatever. Some people like to smash cars with a sledge at the county fair. Some people like to throw dogs off of cliffs. Not that animal cruelty should be condoned; but it should not be met with such emotional calls of justice either - especially considering the far greater human injustices in the world - all that said their is a difference between cruelty to an animal to get off on it and killing them.
At most the offending marine should have been told to quit wasting time and ordered to a do a few push ups for being a dick.
RWElder0 wrote:
Iraq: rant
The kid is a shitbag and should get what is coming to him. I know a few Marines who have told me if they had 5 minutes with him he would not have the ability to throw anything ever again.
All the Marines I know think that this is Much Ado About Nothing. The Marines you speak of exemplify everything that is wrong with the Marine corps today. I guarantee you Chesty Puller could care less if these Marines though a puppy or a cow over a cliff. Although - he would have preferred he that they not waste their energy and instead throw an Iraqi.
[/quote]
Chesty Puller would have kicked him square in the nuts for being a stupid asshole and filming his moronic actions.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Chesty Puller would have kicked him square in the nuts for being a stupid asshole and filming his moronic actions.[/quote]
Yeah right! Ol’ Chesty would have his own videos all over youtube.
[quote]mmllcc wrote:
I kill coldly. Killing a sheep is no more to me than breaking a glass or a machine - or whatever. Animals – all of them fit into that category (and no I do not put animals and humans into the same category). [/quote]
And why is that, may I ask?
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
no… let’s not twist what is being said.
No one is defending the actual action, what they are doing is putting it in perspective.[/quote]
I didn’t twist anything. Read the post he made right below yours.
[quote]lixy wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
no… let’s not twist what is being said.
No one is defending the actual action, what they are doing is putting it in perspective.
I didn’t twist anything. Read the post he made right below yours.[/quote]
you mean where he goes on to say:[quote]
Not that animal cruelty should be condoned; but it should not be met with such emotional calls of justice either - especially considering the far greater human injustices in the world - all that said their is a difference between cruelty to an animal to get off on it and killing them.[/quote]
and which was also posted AFTER your post?
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
lixy wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
no… let’s not twist what is being said.
No one is defending the actual action, what they are doing is putting it in perspective.
I didn’t twist anything. Read the post he made right below yours.
you mean where he goes on to say:
Not that animal cruelty should be condoned; but it should not be met with such emotional calls of justice either - especially considering the far greater human injustices in the world - all that said their is a difference between cruelty to an animal to get off on it and killing them.
and which was also posted AFTER your post? [/quote]
Ok, guilty! I admit I stopped reading at “However – if one does think it is funny to kill an animal. Whatever.”