Picking A Modern Muscle Car

Off Topic
61

[quote]Ferrum wrote:
Moriarty,

I’ll make this reply and then I’m done. I won’t argue German engineering vs. Muscle car, it’s like arguing which is better a hammer or a screwdriver. Originally, I thought you did misunderstand the muscle car ideal (you proposed the following, a z8, z06, and a 330Ci) and why someone would prefer it. I was wrong, you were mistaken as to why the thread was started. The thread was started as “picking a modern muscle car” and, as you said, the z06 is a viable muscle car option. I’ll talk corvette vs. mustang vs. charger etc. I appreciate the discussion of the body styling (in relevance strictly to the muscle cars). I would even enjoy a seperate “picking a german engineered driving machine” thread, but the German engineering vs. muscle car debate is another thread at the least if even debatable.[/quote]

I agree with you completely, however I saw a 350Z mentioned (a couple of times) and when those psoters weren’t flamed suggested a test drive of what I thuoght were also viable alternatives. Why is it ok to suggest a 350Z but not other cars? (BTW I don’t remember suggesting a z8).

Also, can someone tell me how suggesting a test drive of an 3-Series/M3 and a Z06 for reference is somehow negative? How does having the extra information of a test drive hurt the thread starter? Fine, you win, don’t test drive those cars! Happy now?

As you can see from RJ’s posts, a lot of people don’t really research automotive purchases. They disregard models and brands based on marketing and biases. He thinks the BMW 3-Series isn’t a good value in the 35-50k performance segment! (Guess he knows something Car & Driver has overlooked for the last 10 years).

Two things I’ve learned about this thread:

  1. Suggesting test drives = bad
  2. Disregarding cars you don’t even know the specs on = good
62

[quote]Kuz wrote:
michaelv wrote:
I’ll take my 350Z over any of those cars any day. It’s a much more competant car at the limits of handling, and generally better balanced. If you want a true “muscle car”, it probably doesn’t fit. It’s more power with finesse. But it’s not a wussie car by any stretch, and I’ll take that finesse when drifting around a 35-mph ramp at 85, any day.

Every car I’ve owned up to this point has been a Nissan, so I like them quite a bit, they’ve been good to me and the 350Z is a beautiful car. My only problem is that it is a pure 2 seater. But for that, it would be under serious consideration.[/quote]

Huh? What’s this? The thread starter would consider a Nissan if it sat 4 people? Well don’t I feel stupid for suggested a car that isn’t an American muscle car.

Should the thread starter shut up too RJ?

63

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
Ferrum wrote:
Moriarty,

I’ll make this reply and then I’m done. I won’t argue German engineering vs. Muscle car, it’s like arguing which is better a hammer or a screwdriver. Originally, I thought you did misunderstand the muscle car ideal (you proposed the following, a z8, z06, and a 330Ci) and why someone would prefer it. I was wrong, you were mistaken as to why the thread was started. The thread was started as “picking a modern muscle car” and, as you said, the z06 is a viable muscle car option. I’ll talk corvette vs. mustang vs. charger etc. I appreciate the discussion of the body styling (in relevance strictly to the muscle cars). I would even enjoy a seperate “picking a german engineered driving machine” thread, but the German engineering vs. muscle car debate is another thread at the least if even debatable.

I agree with you completely, however I saw a 350Z mentioned (a couple of times) and when those psoters weren’t flamed suggested a test drive of what I thuoght were also viable alternatives. Why is it ok to suggest a 350Z but not other cars? (BTW I don’t remember suggesting a z8).

Also, can someone tell me how suggesting a test drive of an 3-Series/M3 and a Z06 for reference is somehow negative? How does having the extra information of a test drive hurt the thread starter? Fine, you win, don’t test drive those cars! Happy now?

As you can see from RJ’s posts, a lot of people don’t really research automotive purchases. They disregard models and brands based on marketing and biases. He thinks the BMW 3-Series isn’t a good value in the 35-50k performance segment! (Guess he knows something Car & Driver has overlooked for the last 10 years).

Two things I’ve learned about this thread:

  1. Suggesting test drives = bad
  2. Disregarding cars you don’t even know the specs on = good[/quote]

No No, what you’ve learned on this thread is that there’s a difference between true drivers, like you and me and posers or should i say dirvers tht drive for reasons other then loving to drive, transportation. A true driver appreciates all cars that contribute to the experience of driving, the engine, the feel, the cars spirit if you will. Each one is unique, and some lack any substance, like the new mustang, it’s a empty shell of a once great car who’s time has passed, it’s like trying to rekindle an old relationship only to realise it won’t work and is best left in the past.

The new corvette (c6) is the first time in a long time that I’m finally Impressed by an American sports car. It’s the car i always knew the USA could make but scratched my head as to why it didn’t. So now it’s here and a viable option. The C5 is a great chioce as well. BMW brings a different feel to the table and is an excellent drivers car, I loved driving them. With cars it’s not just all about HP. It’s the balance, weight, chasis stifness, weight transfer charasteristics, powerband, etc etc etc. Currently i drive the Z32 300zx 5 spd and it’s been named as one of Dupont registry’s top 10 sports cars in the world, as well as making motor trends import car of the year for what like 6 years straight? So Nissan is also adept at making a good drivers car, but i am sceptical of the new 350 Z. In Europe however the Z car is hailed as the Japanese Porsche.

On a final note I just want to say why i think American cars like ford suck in generall.

Cheap metals used in construction of body, and meachanics.

Cheap paint quality.

Interior plastics are way cheap and crude.

The engineering is VERY subpar compared to imports but interestingly the Price is in a very similar range. Go figure pay the same or more and get less is the motto of domestics, but they hide it well with glitter and flash. Don’t plan to keep a ford for more then 5 years and expect it to look, drive new.

Cars we’ve owned.

  1. Ford Thunderbird
  2. Ford Aerostar
  3. Ford Explorer (Eddie Bauer)POS!
  4. Pontiac Trans Am

All these cars were crap right from the showroom.

Then we got these

Nissan 300zx
Infinity Q45
Mitsubishi Montero

The imports are so far ahead of demestics it’s not even funny. You get what you pay for, and i think we can all like that.

64

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
Kuz wrote:
michaelv wrote:
I’ll take my 350Z over any of those cars any day. It’s a much more competant car at the limits of handling, and generally better balanced. If you want a true “muscle car”, it probably doesn’t fit. It’s more power with finesse. But it’s not a wussie car by any stretch, and I’ll take that finesse when drifting around a 35-mph ramp at 85, any day.

Every car I’ve owned up to this point has been a Nissan, so I like them quite a bit, they’ve been good to me and the 350Z is a beautiful car. My only problem is that it is a pure 2 seater. But for that, it would be under serious consideration.

Huh? What’s this? The thread starter would consider a Nissan if it sat 4 people? Well don’t I feel stupid for suggested a car that isn’t an American muscle car.

Should the thread starter shut up too RJ?[/quote]

No, because I’m the coolest. lol Also, because I know what RJ’s point is.

Look, before this turns into an all out pissing contest, there is a pretty big difference, Moriarty, from how you posted your opinion and the 350Z guy did. He posted it as, “Well, I think you should consider the 350Z. I like mine, etc.” Your approach was completely condescending about the point of the entire thread, i.e. “How could anyone over 18 even consider a muscle car?” and then you proceeded to spend the rest of your post ripping the entire concept of a muscle car. THAT is completely off point from this thread… did you seriously expect NOT to get flamed for something like that?

A side diversion from a thread is one thing, but your post basically insulted the entire point of the thread and everyone who was enjoying the discussion on that topic. That will always result in a flame around here. It’s almost like the tattoos thread from a few months back where someone jumped into the middle just to talk about how they hate tattoos.

Kuz

65

[quote]Kuz wrote:
Moriarty wrote:
Kuz wrote:
michaelv wrote:
I’ll take my 350Z over any of those cars any day. It’s a much more competant car at the limits of handling, and generally better balanced. If you want a true “muscle car”, it probably doesn’t fit. It’s more power with finesse. But it’s not a wussie car by any stretch, and I’ll take that finesse when drifting around a 35-mph ramp at 85, any day.

Every car I’ve owned up to this point has been a Nissan, so I like them quite a bit, they’ve been good to me and the 350Z is a beautiful car. My only problem is that it is a pure 2 seater. But for that, it would be under serious consideration.

Huh? What’s this? The thread starter would consider a Nissan if it sat 4 people? Well don’t I feel stupid for suggested a car that isn’t an American muscle car.

Should the thread starter shut up too RJ?

No, because I’m the coolest. lol Also, because I know what RJ’s point is.

Look, before this turns into an all out pissing contest, there is a pretty big difference, Moriarty, from how you posted your opinion and the 350Z guy did. He posted it as, “Well, I think you should consider the 350Z. I like mine, etc.” Your approach was completely condescending about the point of the entire thread, i.e. “How could anyone over 18 even consider a muscle car?” and then you proceeded to spened the rest of your thread ripping the entire concept of a muscle car. THAT is completely off point from this thread… did you seriously expect NOT to get flamed for something like that?

A side diversion from a thread is one thing, but your post basically insulted the entire point of the thread. That will always result in a flame around here. It’s almost like the tattoos thread from a few months back where someone jumped into the middle just to talk about how they hate tattoos.

Kuz[/quote]

Kuz is DA MAN!

66

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
Should the thread starter shut up too RJ?[/quote]

I believe YOU were the only one I told to shut up. Is there something confusing about that statement?

67

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Moriarty wrote:
Should the thread starter shut up too RJ?

I believe YOU were the only one I told to shut up. Is there something confusing about that statement?[/quote]

Yes. Moriarty is very confused. Shit, he thinks alvin owns people…

68

Moriarty,

  1. Sorry not z8, z4 (silky smooth I6 right?) You missed my point though, trashing the V8 in favor of the V6, hating the body style(s), and then suggesting a genre of car outside the ideals of the thread, of course, piss people off as similar behavior would on any thread. Next time, “if you want similar performance characteristics/$ (or whatever) I suggest…” will work better than “Versions of the cars you suggested suck, try something that isn’t in the same genre as what you’re looking for”.

  2. Check up on the 300C SRT8 and the Charger SRT8 (basically the same car) I think they stand up pretty well next to the z06 (especially considering their size), but as you state correctly, I would have to drive them. If I had the $, those would be my top three for muscle car picks.

  3. I think the only lesson needed is tact. Maybe some debate/logic lessons too.

69

[quote]shady659 wrote:
my roommate has an '04 gto and that is a great ride. the '05 has 50 more horsepower and a higher redline with the added hoodscoops and redesigned rear bumper and dual exhaust ports. it sounds like a pissed off bulldog and easily gets rubber in 4 gears. anyway, give the gto a testdrive at least. i think you’ll definitely be impressed. besides, aftermarket parts are easy to find for general motors engines should the need for more power ever come up. isn’t the charger 4 doors, anyway?[/quote]

totally agree from experience, the gto is a 4 seat vette (same engine, same power) with a little bit more supple ride. the sound from the exhaust is amazing. It has independent rear suspension so it definitely can handle the bumps nicely. The interior is fantastic.

My freind had the new Acura TL for 2 months before it got flooded and he opted to go for the gto instead of getting a new TL again. modern muscle cars have not only gotten faster in straight line performance, they have improved suspension dynamics for changing directions (turning) and absorbing road irregularities (bumps). I’m personally saving for the new Z06. laters pk

70

The ride on this horse is awesome. It responds quickly, it’s strong, and it’s a great car to look at. Chooose a car that defines your personality.

71

[quote]Kuz wrote:
michaelv wrote:
I’ll take my 350Z over any of those cars any day. It’s a much more competant car at the limits of handling, and generally better balanced. If you want a true “muscle car”, it probably doesn’t fit. It’s more power with finesse. But it’s not a wussie car by any stretch, and I’ll take that finesse when drifting around a 35-mph ramp at 85, any day.

Every car I’ve owned up to this point has been a Nissan, so I like them quite a bit, they’ve been good to me and the 350Z is a beautiful car. My only problem is that it is a pure 2 seater. But for that, it would be under serious consideration.[/quote]

If you like the 350z but dislike the fact that it is a 2 seater then consider the new 6 speed Infiniti G35. Trust me, you will not go wrong with it.

Later RK

72

[quote]Kuz wrote:
Moriarty wrote:
Kuz wrote:
michaelv wrote:
I’ll take my 350Z over any of those cars any day. It’s a much more competant car at the limits of handling, and generally better balanced. If you want a true “muscle car”, it probably doesn’t fit. It’s more power with finesse. But it’s not a wussie car by any stretch, and I’ll take that finesse when drifting around a 35-mph ramp at 85, any day.

Every car I’ve owned up to this point has been a Nissan, so I like them quite a bit, they’ve been good to me and the 350Z is a beautiful car. My only problem is that it is a pure 2 seater. But for that, it would be under serious consideration.

Huh? What’s this? The thread starter would consider a Nissan if it sat 4 people? Well don’t I feel stupid for suggested a car that isn’t an American muscle car.

Should the thread starter shut up too RJ?

No, because I’m the coolest. lol Also, because I know what RJ’s point is.

Look, before this turns into an all out pissing contest, there is a pretty big difference, Moriarty, from how you posted your opinion and the 350Z guy did. He posted it as, “Well, I think you should consider the 350Z. I like mine, etc.” Your approach was completely condescending about the point of the entire thread, i.e. “How could anyone over 18 even consider a muscle car?” and then you proceeded to spend the rest of your post ripping the entire concept of a muscle car. THAT is completely off point from this thread… did you seriously expect NOT to get flamed for something like that?

A side diversion from a thread is one thing, but your post basically insulted the entire point of the thread and everyone who was enjoying the discussion on that topic. That will always result in a flame around here. It’s almost like the tattoos thread from a few months back where someone jumped into the middle just to talk about how they hate tattoos.

Kuz[/quote]

Yeah you’re right of course, I was purposely abrasive. But I think you’re wrong about one thing, I didn’t say only an 18 year old would like muscle cars, I said “these specific” muscles cars.

And I didn’t piss on the muscle car ideal, I pissed on these muscle cars.

The muscle car ideal is a large displacement engine in a large, aggressive looking body that sacrifices comfort and handling to rip the street to shreads in a straight line, right? The cars mentioned here (to me) make the sacrifices, but aren’t particularly fast even in a straight line! Also (again to me) these newer “muscle” cars have a plastic, toyish body styling that doesn’t look at all aggressive.

If you’re going to settle for a low-to-mid 5 second 0-60, why not get a car that does that as well as:

  1. has superior interior quality
  2. has superior braking characteristics
  3. handles like it’s on rails

So, I still stand by my assertion. If you’re looking for that muscle car ideal, you’re either going to be looking at a Z06, Viper, or some serious mod work.

If you’re content with low-to-mid 5 (or even high 4) second 0-60 you can get that kind of acceleration out of a car that has superior characteristics in all other areas.

Sorry, but these so-called modern “muscle” cars just elict a strong reaction out of me.

73

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Moriarty wrote:
Should the thread starter shut up too RJ?

I believe YOU were the only one I told to shut up. Is there something confusing about that statement?[/quote]

Yes, it is confusing. You told me to shut up because I “bragged” about non-Amercian cars in this thread. Yet, you didn’t tell the posters that “bragged” about the Nissan 350Z (which included the thread starter) to shut up. Why the selective response? Was it my tone?

74

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Moriarty wrote:
Should the thread starter shut up too RJ?

I believe YOU were the only one I told to shut up. Is there something confusing about that statement?

Yes. Moriarty is very confused. Shit, he thinks alvin owns people…[/quote]

Cheerleader.

75

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
Yes, it is confusing. You told me to shut up because I “bragged” about non-Amercian cars in this thread. Yet, you didn’t tell the posters that “bragged” about the Nissan 350Z (which included the thread starter) to shut up. Why the selective response? Was it my tone?[/quote]

I told you to shut up because you were talking shit on a thread you did not start that was populated by by overwhelming support of the thread topic.

If you need that translated - you came on trashing the three cars that were mentioned. Most everyone else came on here talkng about how much they liked AMERICAN MUSCLE CARS - not how bad they sucked.

The post you reference as being the same as yours is hardly that. He made a genuine offer to just look at the 350 - he didn’t trash the Mustang, GTO, or Charger like you did.

If you want to rail against the sorry state of American Muscle - start your own thread. I’m sure you can fill it up with Fast and Furious wannabes.

You were out of line with both your tone and your topic. This isn’t the political threads - and I think you were out of line.

As for calling Weider a cheerleader - dude that is soooo hypocritical considering the fact that you have been carrying Little Al’s water for him the past few days.

76

[quote]lucasa wrote:
2) Check up on the 300C SRT8 and the Charger SRT8 (basically the same car) I think they stand up pretty well next to the z06 (especially considering their size), but as you state correctly, I would have to drive them. If I had the $, those would be my top three for muscle car picks.
[/quote]

So hold on here, to me you’re making my point for me. I don’t consider the 300C a “muscle car”. I consider it a luxury sedan with a lot of power. It doesn’t have the styling, nor the attitude of what I consider a muscle car (personal opinion I know). Isn’t that why both the 300C and the Charger exist, two different segments, right? The 300C is essentially a poor mans’s E55 (and I think we’d all agree that the E55 is not a “muscle car”).

So why settle for the inferior quality and styling of, say, a new Mustang GT, when there are luxury sedans out there that are superior across the board and are just as fast in a straight line?

the 300C/Charger dichotomy is really symbolic of my stance on modern “muscle” cars.

[quote]
3) I think the only lesson needed is tact. Maybe some debate/logic lessons too.[/quote]

I apologize for my abrasiveness. As I said before these cars elicit a strong response from me.

As far as debate/logic lessons, I’ve had plenty of those and if you knew my profession and credentials in those areas I think you’d respect them.

Test drive an M3 and a Z06!

77

[quote]Moriarty wrote:

  1. Suggesting test drives = bad
  2. Disregarding cars you don’t even know the specs on = good[/quote]

don’t group all the people on this thread.

also the original topic on the thread was about american muscle cars. You can give your personal opinion why other classes of cars might be better option for a particular person but you shouldn’t compare apples to oranges in terms of price levels and car types.

laters pk

78

[quote]rainjack wrote:
If you need that translated - you came on trashing the three cars that were mentioned. Most everyone else came on here talkng about how much they liked AMERICAN MUSCLE CARS - not how bad they sucked.
[/quote]

Um, I do like AMERICAN MUSCLE CARS. In fact, I LOVE them. The good ones. If I won the lottery that first car I would go buy right now would be a Dodge Viper. Read through the thread again, I was not the only one whose opinion was that the three options aren’t that great and that a used Z06 would be an alternative as a true muscle car.

You’re right, I apologized for my abrasiveness.

Again, you’re right about my tone. Sorry. However, the thread was started to collect opinions on some specific cars. Mine happened to be negative. I didn’t rail against American Muscle, in fact I believe I said that the Vette was the best all around value in all of performance automotives. How can that be construed as being negative?

I’ve apologized for my tone already, but I think you’re jumping on me a little too aggressively, which is clear since you’re responding to things I haven’t even said.

[quote]
As for calling Weider a cheerleader - dude that is soooo hypocritical considering the fact that you have been carrying Little Al’s water for him the past few days.[/quote]

I’ve made two responses to Al’s posts, both contained only the single word “Owned”, and I thought both had an obviously sarcastic and humorous tone (in fact JeffR picked up on that). Carrying his water?

79

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Moriarty wrote:
Should the thread starter shut up too RJ?

I believe YOU were the only one I told to shut up. Is there something confusing about that statement?

Yes. Moriarty is very confused. Shit, he thinks alvin owns people…

Cheerleader.[/quote]

I’m not a cheerleader, dammit.
I’m a slut and a whore.
Get it right, please.
:wink:

80

If you end up putting that turbo on the 350Z that alone for NISMO is 4,300 and l dont think that includes intercooler and gets an advertised 430hp so add that cost on top of the car 27-32G and your still spending more money then a 01-02 Zo6 and you will still be getting smoked. Then add the cost of your blown up tranny and clutch later because of the added power. Poor choice stick with americas best Zo6