lostin - I would definitely be looking at the newer GTO with the 400 HP engine, but I will look more into the LS2 - maybe we are thinking of the same thing? And RJ, on the GTO thing, I don’t have any nostalgic links to the old GTOs, so I don’t necessarily have the same feeling that I know a lot of GTO afficionados seem to feel about the new design. I am more of an old time Mustang guy, hence my fondness for the updated design.
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The GTO is actually a Holden Monaro made here in Australia. They started making them again a few years ago for the first time since about the 70’s after they showed a concept car at a motor show and demand went through the roof, so Holden started producing them again.
They just rebadged it a Pontiac and changed the body slightly to include the scoop. I’m not sure about other changes as I’m not really a car expert.
I would say get a 2004 Cobra. 390HP, supercharged V8, with about $2000 in mods you’ll be putting 450 to the wheels no problem with enough torque to cause the asphalt to ripple. My brother has a 2000 GT, 260hp and it will chirp 3rd…Cobras are just nasty.
I tried really hard to stay away from this thread. I know this opinion is not wanted here, but I can’t stay away.
I don’t know why anyone over the age of 18 would buy one of these so called “muscle” cars.
They just look tacky. Seriously, the styling looks like something a child would like (and I love the styling of the “old” muscle cars).
A 24 valve, 4.7 liter V8 to get the same acceleration that the Germans are getting out of a SILKY smooth 3 liter inline-6? Huh?
Let’s not even get started on handling, road feel, interior quality, braking…oh wait that’s everything.
Sorry guys, but if you’re a serious driver it takes more than going in a straight line fast (which these cars don’t even do particularly well without modification).
Whoever mentioned the Z06 is right on the money. The cheapest American “muscle” car you’re going to find that is a true driver’s car (and it really is one of the best values in driving period).
If you really want to screw yourself go test drive an M3 or a Z06. I bet you won’t let yourself buy a Mustang.
Hell, even a 330Ci will smoke any stock GT you find (Unless of course by “smoke” you mean gunnin it from stop light to stop light and giggling about it, but this being T-Nation and us being T-Men/Women I assume we’re all talking about actually racing cars.) The 3-series has truly been the defining car of the last decade.
I not a fan of the retro mustang at all. To me it’s a case of “we can’t come up with anything new” say we’ll copy some crap from the past and market it today kinda mentality. The new mustang looks cheap and completly watered down, nice try but no cigar. The interior is made to dazzle you with flashy crap and it hadles like a cow. The car is a POS. But hey if it floats your boat, go for it.
I like the GTO. If had to choose i would choose that one. I saw one on the road and it has a good road presence unlike the mustang, which looks better sitting in a showroom.
[quote]Moriarty wrote:
I tried really hard to stay away from this thread. I know this opinion is not wanted here, but I can’t stay away.
[/quote]
Try harder.
Semantics? Personal Taste? How is this productively contributing to the discussion?
You’re talking about two production CARS and the engineering that went into those CARS. Not quite sure which v8 you’re talking about, but it’d be nice to know the gross vehicle weight of each CAR. This is part of the “muscle car” ideal (big car, big engine, small 0-60 or 1/4). The Chrysler 300C does a 5.5s 0-60 and seats four with room for a body in the trunk. Otherwise, your could just engineer the hell out of the car and have an F1, Indy, Drag, or NASCAR, and last time I checked, the Germans weren’t near the top in any of the above.
Handling? 99% of turns I make are 90 degrees from a dead stop at a light. Not at 75mph on Highway 1 like the “real drivers” in commercials. Road feel? Sometimes I like to ignore the potholes. Interior quality? Once again semantics and taste. Braking? Did you put up any stats here? No, because braking is much more comparable between the two “groups”.
Serious driver? Do you mean professional? or someone who just decides “I like driving.” and buys the car from the company who is for people “who like to drive.”
Once again, when your house sits on a 1/4 mi. square with stoplights at the four corners, and that square is surrounded 15 miles in any direction of similar squares, you gain an appreciation for the ability to break the tedium of moving from one light to the next. And when it comes to this, the cars posted would rip the face off most of the others on the street.
What kind of racing F1, Indy, NASCAR, Hotrod/Drag, motorcycle, off-road street, etc., etc. I love the marketing job BMW has done, they certainly have projected an air of “performance dominance”. But anyone who is a “serious driver” will avail themselves of the most appropriate means of transportation for the given condition. I love the “serious driver” of a BMW who drives the same or similar course I do to work every day, doesn’t have a CDL, PPL, Motorcycle or any other licence (Personally, CDL and Motorcycle), has never ridden driven, or used any other form of motor vehicle, and claims “superior performance”.
[quote]Moriarty wrote:
I tried really hard to stay away from this thread. I know this opinion is not wanted here, but I can’t stay away.
I don’t know why anyone over the age of 18 would buy one of these so called “muscle” cars.
They just look tacky. Seriously, the styling looks like something a child would like (and I love the styling of the “old” muscle cars).
A 24 valve, 4.7 liter V8 to get the same acceleration that the Germans are getting out of a SILKY smooth 3 liter inline-6? Huh?
Let’s not even get started on handling, road feel, interior quality, braking…oh wait that’s everything.
Sorry guys, but if you’re a serious driver it takes more than going in a straight line fast (which these cars don’t even do particularly well without modification).
Whoever mentioned the Z06 is right on the money. The cheapest American “muscle” car you’re going to find that is a true driver’s car (and it really is one of the best values in driving period).
If you really want to screw yourself go test drive an M3 or a Z06. I bet you won’t let yourself buy a Mustang.
Hell, even a 330Ci will smoke any stock GT you find (Unless of course by “smoke” you mean gunnin it from stop light to stop light and giggling about it, but this being T-Nation and us being T-Men/Women I assume we’re all talking about actually racing cars.) The 3-series has truly been the defining car of the last decade.[/quote]
engine size does not matter as long as fuel economy is the same per vehicle application. performance is a matter of power/weight ratio with suspension dynamics.
have you looked at the skid pad and slalom numbers of the gto and chrysler 300c srt8. they are comparible to the 330i.
also you are comparing $25K cars (mustang GT) to $35-$$55K cars (bmw 330i-M3). That is not valid. You have to look at what you are getting for the money. people should definitely test drive cars before they buy. laters pk
They just look tacky. Seriously, the styling looks like something a child would like (and I love the styling of the “old” muscle cars).
Semantics? Personal Taste? How is this productively contributing to the discussion?
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Oh, I see. Injecting my personal taste isn’t adding to the discussion? Actually that’s what this entire thread is about, everyone’s personal tastes. I’ll state mine with or without your approval. Thanks.
You’re exactly right, I’m talking about CARS (in all caps even). That’s what this thread is about, right? CARS? Modern “muscle” cars in this segment have big engines yet are not particularly fast without modification.
I love the part where you say it’s all about having a heavy car, otherwise you could just engineer it properly and it would be fast. I guess you don’t consider a Z06 to be a muscle car then, right?
I understand the muscle car ideal, I’m providing an alternative.
And of course if a german car doesn’t take tops at nascar then they aren’t a viable alternative for consumer purchase.
Hmmm, sound like you’re adding your personal tastes to this discussion. So by your logic since 99% of the turns YOU make are from a dead stop and because YOU don’t appreciate road feel, then NO ONE can consider or offer opinions on cars that offer superior performance because it’s more than what YOU NEED? That’s what you’re saying, right?
Sounds like Ford Mustang V6 is perfect for you. I’ll contiunue to offer my opinions nonetheless.
Interior quality is not “semantics”, although it is personal taste. That’s why I suggested a test drive.
Car & Driver’s take on the braking capabilites of the Mustang GT:
“pedal modulation is merely ho-hum, what you’d expect from, say, a Taurus. The transition from threshold braking to ABS is abrupt and tricky to predict, especially on anything but glassy-smooth tarmac, and the pedal generally felt as if it wanted another inch of travel.”
Braking between a Ford Mustang and, say, and 330i (183ft vs 158ft) is not “comparable”.
No, I literally meant what I said. Serious drivers.
With the 3-Series and 5-series BMW has achieved performance dominance in the last decade. I feel the same way as you about the guy that drives the 325 or A4 solely for work-to-home driving and think he’s some kind of “serious driver” or that he’s impressing anyone. I also feel that way about the 30 year old guy in the Mustang GT that thinks he’s in some kind of muscle monster. How is that relevant to what I’ve said though, unless you’re implying that you know how everyone on this thread drives their cars?
[quote]pkradgreek wrote:
engine size does not matter as long as fuel economy is the same per vehicle application. performance is a matter of power/weight ratio with suspension dynamics.
[/quote]
Yes, but there’s more to it than that. What about torque characteristics? Predictability and smoothness of the powerband? Given simliar fuel economy and acceleration you can still have a car that produces a torque curve that looks like a step function.
I honestly haven’t looked closely at the 300C srt8, but it sounds like a serious car.
[quote]
also you are comparing $25K cars (mustang GT) to $35-$$55K cars (bmw 330i-M3). That is not valid. You have to look at what you are getting for the money. people should definitely test drive cars before they buy. laters pk[/quote]
I agree for the most part, but I think test driving one of these cars can definitely give you a better perspective on things. And the right used Z06 could be a great value.
This was an open question as to which of three American Muscle cars to buy. Not an open forum to brag about the superiority of German engineering.
If I wanted the best performance for my dollar - I wouldn’t even give BMW a first look. Do you honestly think that BMW can touch the Vettes, or the Vipers?
If I’m spending 60K - I damn sure not giving it to BMW - or any other German auto maker.
If I wanted the best performance for my dollar - I wouldn’t even give BMW a first look. Do you honestly think that BMW can touch the Vettes, or the Vipers?
If I’m spending 60K - I damn sure not giving it to BMW - or any other German auto maker.
my roommate has an '04 gto and that is a great ride. the '05 has 50 more horsepower and a higher redline with the added hoodscoops and redesigned rear bumper and dual exhaust ports. it sounds like a pissed off bulldog and easily gets rubber in 4 gears. anyway, give the gto a testdrive at least. i think you’ll definitely be impressed. besides, aftermarket parts are easy to find for general motors engines should the need for more power ever come up. isn’t the charger 4 doors, anyway?
If your current car is paid for a different idea might be to keep your car and buy a REAL muscle car mid 60s early 70s. The advantage to this would be you still have your car for gas mileage and everday driving. Also if you pick the right car like the SS Chevelles, Camaros and so forth when you buy one it wont lose $5,000 when you drive it off the lot and will keep its value and only grow as long as you maintain it. If youve ever driven any of these cars youd know nothing new can compare and you wont see one at every stoplight like the new mustang, and anyother car mentioned. You could pick up a very nice driver for the price of these new cars. But The new GTO would be my pick most power gets great gas mileage, and great interior, brakes, even though its a mass produced car l believe they only made 18,000 in 04 and not many more this yr so you will have some type of exclusiveness. As where they will make 200,000 Mustangs atleast.
I know you are looking for muscle cars, but you also seemed to show some interest in the 350Z. If you are open to “foreign” cars, look into the Mitsu Lancer Evo and the Subaru WRX STi. Both are faster stock cars than just about anything mentioned here (except the Z06), and they are $25-30 grand. Throw in an upgrade on the turbo and you are looking at 0-60 in 4.3 sec. Faster than even the Z06, and cheaper too.
I’ll make this reply and then I’m done. I won’t argue German engineering vs. Muscle car, it’s like arguing which is better a hammer or a screwdriver. Originally, I thought you did misunderstand the muscle car ideal (you proposed the following, a z8, z06, and a 330Ci) and why someone would prefer it. I was wrong, you were mistaken as to why the thread was started. The thread was started as “picking a modern muscle car” and, as you said, the z06 is a viable muscle car option. I’ll talk corvette vs. mustang vs. charger etc. I appreciate the discussion of the body styling (in relevance strictly to the muscle cars). I would even enjoy a seperate “picking a german engineered driving machine” thread, but the German engineering vs. muscle car debate is another thread at the least if even debatable.
Ok. A 350Z was considered, which last time I check wasn’t an American Muscle car. I offered another alternative. Doesn’t hurt anyone.
You’d be foolish then, and obviously don’t know your cars. BMW is widely considered to offer one of the best overall values in the 35-50k performance segment.
As far as Vettes and Vipers, you’d have to step up to an M3 to get comparable performance to a Vette. As I suggested before, the Vette is possibly one of the best all around value in all of performance automotives, and it’s worth a test drive of both to see which one you like better.
No, BMW does not offer anything that compares to an 85k Viper. If you’re willing to spend 85k definitely test drive the Viper.
[quote]
If I’m spending 60K - I damn sure not giving it to BMW - or any other German auto maker.[/quote]
RJ, have you ever even driven an M3 or a Z06? Hell, do you even know the specs on an M3?
I love how telling a guy that’s purchasing a car to consider a wide variety of options and test drive a bunch of stuff is supposedly negative, but telling people to “shut up” and disregarding cars you know nothing about is somehow adding something positive to the discussion.
I still stand by my recommendation. Test drive an M3 and a Z06 for frame of reference before buying.
Problem solved.