[quote]JamFly wrote:
I went from a 12 rep max on wide grip pull ups to an 18 rep max in something like 8 weeks using the ‘gymnasts extended set chinning routine’ twice a week for two sets. I would recommend it.
[/quote]
Thanks, do you have a link? Tried a site search and didn’t see it.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
JamFly wrote:
I went from a 12 rep max on wide grip pull ups to an 18 rep max in something like 8 weeks using the ‘gymnasts extended set chinning routine’ twice a week for two sets. I would recommend it.
Thanks, do you have a link? Tried a site search and didn’t see it.[/quote]
This is the one, great article.
[quote]JamFly wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
JamFly wrote:
I went from a 12 rep max on wide grip pull ups to an 18 rep max in something like 8 weeks using the ‘gymnasts extended set chinning routine’ twice a week for two sets. I would recommend it.
Thanks, do you have a link? Tried a site search and didn’t see it.
This is the one, great article.[/quote]
That program is ridiculous. Quickest way to knock out 50+ painful chins and 2+ days of DOMS there is.
[quote]Travacolypse wrote:
JamFly wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
JamFly wrote:
I went from a 12 rep max on wide grip pull ups to an 18 rep max in something like 8 weeks using the ‘gymnasts extended set chinning routine’ twice a week for two sets. I would recommend it.
Thanks, do you have a link? Tried a site search and didn’t see it.
This is the one, great article.
That program is ridiculous. Quickest way to knock out 50+ painful chins and 2+ days of DOMS there is.[/quote]
Sounds like you have actually tried this as your description is very similar to my experience in terms of the DOMS?
The other good thing about this programe is the steady and constant progression you can make. You total up your reps over two sets and you may end up with say 60 reps total next time you only need to get 61 over the two sets to progress - it makes for encouraging work when you see gains all be them small each workout.
[quote]HoratioSandoval wrote:
Pullups don’t work all of your back muscles. Add horizontal pulling and external rotation of the shoulder exercises.
I think once you “wake up” some lazy muscles, you’ll gain some reps very quickly.
[/quote]
Horatio is right. Pullups alone don’t work it all. Try incline bench supported rows. Something to severely isolate your back muscles in a horizontal / incline position.
Also you need to determine what is failing when you get to your last reps. Your arms? Your lats? Your shoulders? Pain? Your grip? What is giving up? Find it and focus on that.
BUT BEWARE - the problem can be if your weakest muscle group is not doing its job, then the load will shift to another muscle group and THAT group will fatigue. So you could feel it in your arms but it is not your arms that need work, it could be some minor muscle group that is waaay too weak and you are shifting the load to your arms.
That is the problem with pullups they are so variable in form it is hard to diagnose them / what is wrong with the technique. This is also why using bands etc… to build up strength, or using a pulldown machine, don’t fully transfer the strength.
So try doing them in different ways, or with feet supported at different angles and try and find what the weak link is.
Armstrong is a good program but when it fails it is usually because you are knocking the crud out of the weak muscle and transferring it to another muscle and then that muscle is the one that feels it / seems to be the problem. In my opinion.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Thanks for all the advice on here so far. I guess there are two schools of thought when it comes to increasing chins or pullups:
or
I have always heard people preaching option 1, but it has not gotten me far. Maybe I need to do more reps, but not max out? Guess I may give CT’s program a run, just seems like only one day a week is not enough work on the muscles. Then again, sets of 20 negatives does sound brutal.[/quote]
Greasing the groove calls for almost NEVER going to failure. That’s the point of it I think. You just do several sets of submaximal reps a day (say 50-70 percent of max). Then test every couple of weeks. But you really shouldn’t be going to failure much (I guess cause it taxes the nervous system, and the point is to improve the CNS aspect.
I gotta chip in personal experience for greasing the groove. A year or so ago when I started to get into training I wanted to get better at climbing things, so I got a doorway pullup bar, and did 5 every time I walked through that door. I was probably doing 10 or so sets a day, never going to fatigue. When 5 was consistently easy, I bumped it to 6, 7, as high as 10 (although number of sets did drop at this point). My untrained buddy did this with me too.
After about 2 months, we could both knock out 15 somewhat easily and 20 with some effort. Coulda been newbie gains in CNS adaptation and muscle use though, who knows. Just my $.02.
have you tried recon ron?
[quote]spadesofaces wrote:
I gotta chip in personal experience for greasing the groove. A year or so ago when I started to get into training I wanted to get better at climbing things, so I got a doorway pullup bar, and did 5 every time I walked through that door. I was probably doing 10 or so sets a day, never going to fatigue. When 5 was consistently easy, I bumped it to 6, 7, as high as 10 (although number of sets did drop at this point). My untrained buddy did this with me too.
After about 2 months, we could both knock out 15 somewhat easily and 20 with some effort. Coulda been newbie gains in CNS adaptation and muscle use though, who knows. Just my $.02.
[/quote]
Hmm, how many were you maxing at when you started? And you were totally new to training?
[quote]slimthugger wrote:
have you tried recon ron?[/quote]
Nope, have seen it before, but figured if Armstrong isn’t working for me Recon Ron is probably a bad bet.
[quote]HBergeron wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Thanks for all the advice on here so far. I guess there are two schools of thought when it comes to increasing chins or pullups:
or
I have always heard people preaching option 1, but it has not gotten me far. Maybe I need to do more reps, but not max out? Guess I may give CT’s program a run, just seems like only one day a week is not enough work on the muscles. Then again, sets of 20 negatives does sound brutal.
Greasing the groove calls for almost NEVER going to failure. That’s the point of it I think. You just do several sets of submaximal reps a day (say 50-70 percent of max). Then test every couple of weeks. But you really shouldn’t be going to failure much (I guess cause it taxes the nervous system, and the point is to improve the CNS aspect.[/quote]
Right, the point of Pavel’s approach is to improve the skill/efficiency of the movement (probably also has to do with things like rate coding), and doing skill work to the point of exhaustion/failure will only slow down/decrease your rate of improvement.
I can’t speak for it’s efficiency with pull-ups, but way back I did use the approach effectively to improve on planche and front lever progressions, and close both the #1 and #2 COC grippers. I don’t see why it wouldn’t work for pull-ups.
Certainly far from a great muscle building approach though.
Hey man, I donno if you are still checking this, but I am shipping out for OCS this May also- 10 week. I did the Armstrong pull-up program in addition to my weightlifting last year. It’s no good. Doing that many pull-ups just wears you out. I have noticed a few guys posting to forget about the pull-ups and they will come with a proper workout.
I have to say, that has also been my experience. Since abandoning the Armstrong I have made consistent strength gains and have seen my PFT score shoot up to mid 270’s. Also, if you are only focused on the PFT, you will have quite the shock when they introduce you to the CFT. As a fellow Candidate, I’d suggesting just a solid weight-training program. Maybe do a max set once a week just to see where you’re at… Good luck this summer!!
The PFT is a poor proxy of how well you will fair at OCS. You definitely need to pass it, first class and being able to run forever helps, but you also need to be solid in anaerobic movements.
Shipping out late May, you got like 6 weeks.
Keep lifting but switch to circuit training.
Mix up there running. Run a fast mile, do a sprint workout.
www.ausspecialforces.com/pullsforcombat.pdf
Worth a scan; nothing ground breaking but perhaps reiterating some points made above. I also assume you’re wearing cammies and boots while training?
good luck
You mentioned your run was only average, which means your endurance is low and your body fat is high. Increasing the number of pullups may be only a matter of loosing some weight. And I agree with another poster, endurance and running will get you through OCS more than pull ups ever will, although it would be nice to max out.
When I was in I always maxed out on pull ups and sit ups (no crunches in those days), and did the run in less than 20 minutes, which is pretty good for me 'cause I have very short legs. I always practiced pullups and then did chins for the test. I found if I could do 15+ pullups then 20 chins was easy. I also did a lot of handstand pushups. Likewise, handstand pushups are a good measure of body fat. If you can do 15-20 handstand pushups you most likely have pretty low body fat, but I think the combination of pull/chinups and handstand pushups makes for a very good balance of pushing and pulling movements. I also agree with some other posters that over all strength is key and a good all round weight training program and loosing body fat will will increase your pullups more than just doing pullups.
[quote]markiss842 wrote:
Hey man, I donno if you are still checking this, but I am shipping out for OCS this May also- 10 week. I did the Armstrong pull-up program in addition to my weightlifting last year. It’s no good. Doing that many pull-ups just wears you out. I have noticed a few guys posting to forget about the pull-ups and they will come with a proper workout.
I have to say, that has also been my experience. Since abandoning the Armstrong I have made consistent strength gains and have seen my PFT score shoot up to mid 270’s. Also, if you are only focused on the PFT, you will have quite the shock when they introduce you to the CFT. As a fellow Candidate, I’d suggesting just a solid weight-training program. Maybe do a max set once a week just to see where you’re at… Good luck this summer!![/quote]
Cool to see this thread revived. Agree with you on Armstrong, but I’m not solely training for the PFT. If anything, I’m dialing back the weightlifting now, and adding calisthenics/circuit training in this week.
Latest PFT was 15 - 94 (weak, will max these in two weeks) - 20:43. Find out April 22 whether I’m selected for OCC-201 or have a summer to kill til 202.
[quote]dswithers wrote:
You mentioned your run was only average, which means your endurance is low and your body fat is high. Increasing the number of pullups may be only a matter of loosing some weight. And I agree with another poster, endurance and running will get you through OCS more than pull ups ever will, although it would be nice to max out.
When I was in I always maxed out on pull ups and sit ups (no crunches in those days), and did the run in less than 20 minutes, which is pretty good for me 'cause I have very short legs. I always practiced pullups and then did chins for the test. I found if I could do 15+ pullups then 20 chins was easy. I also did a lot of handstand pushups. Likewise, handstand pushups are a good measure of body fat. If you can do 15-20 handstand pushups you most likely have pretty low body fat, but I think the combination of pull/chinups and handstand pushups makes for a very good balance of pushing and pulling movements. I also agree with some other posters that over all strength is key and a good all round weight training program and loosing body fat will will increase your pullups more than just doing pullups.[/quote]
I hear you, my bodyfat isn’t real high, but must be over 10%. I’ve lost ten pounds in the last few months, want to lose a few more before OCS. Am doing three days a week of running, one three-mile, one distance (5-6 miles), one speed (2 miles fast, sprints, or hills). Then one extra day of cardio, be it bike, swimming (haven’t done this in ages), or humping with weighted pack and boots.
[quote]ataktheday wrote:
I don’t have any advice, but just wanted to mention that I’ve always thought 20 pullups was a respectible accomplishment. Good luck. I’m curious, does every marine have to get 20? How strict are they on form - is kipping allowed?[/quote]
absolutely no kipping, chin as to go over bar each time, elbows have to lock out each time… I’ve had to do over 30 just to have 20 count at times…