Hi
I have finish bulking and now want to lean out. How should my Peri workout protocol look like I am cutting?
Keep carbs peri-workout, but limit them the rest of the day.
S
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Keep carbs peri-workout, but limit them the rest of the day.
S
[/quote]
Ok.
My protocol when bulking looked like this:
30 min Preworkout: 30g maltodextrin, 1 scoop Anatrop, 15g whey
During workout; 30g waxy maize, 1 scoop Anatrop
Immediately post workout : 75-100g maltodextrin or waxy maize (upper end for bigger bodyparts), 1 scoop Anatrop, 25g whey
20 min later; 50g complex carbs, 30g whey
Should I continue with this protocol when I am cutting?
My understanding is that if you are provinding your body with nutrients (carbs) while training, the need to ‘replenish’ you depleted stores afterwards isn’t present. Thusly you could probably get rid of the PWO malto/waxy maize,… hell, you could probably get rid of the extra 50g of carbs 20 mins later as well.
When I was chatting with Kevin Nobert, he told me that in preparing for his last show, his only ingested carbs peri and then just stuck to a low carb diet the rest of the day (again, echoing what I originally suggsted). Obviously you could possibly get away with some carbs earlier in the day (well before your training session), but I really doubt that you need so many afterwards.
S
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
humseper wrote:
Immediately post workout : 75-100g maltodextrin or waxy maize (upper end for bigger bodyparts), 1 scoop Anatrop, 25g whey
?
I’m not sure where you got the idea that this forms part of the paraworkout plan my friend, but it doesn’t.
Your muscles are not really primed to accept glucose immediately post workout, due to catecholamine release during exercise.
Scratch this and you should quickly notice that you are drier and leaner.
BBB[/quote]
I got this protocol on Elitefitness. It was written by Justin Harris.
So would this be a optimal protocol for cutting:
30 min Preworkout: 30g maltodextrin, 1 scoop Anatrop, 15g whey
During workout; 30g waxy maize, 1 scoop Anatrop
20 min later; 50g complex carbs, 30g whey
This is actually the opposite of what Shelby Starnes recommended. He said no pre and during carb and only after, so I am a bit confused.
Aye Im curious about this too… how would things apply to somebody following a low carb/refeed pattern as outlined in Thibs Refined Physique Transformation… (30g carbs a day, carb up every 2 weeks on clean foods, etc.).
Back then Thibs suggested a low carb protocoll but I am wondering of there is something simpler that will yield better results (always suffered with muscle loss on low carb diets!).
tl;dr: Can one still loose fat and maintain muscle mass at a high rate when using a high carb perri workout protocoll on a low carb diet? Also what would people suggest?
Does anyone know how big the OP is? His BF%? Height? How sensitive he is to carbs? Otherwise, I dunno how anyone can really give him any advice on this.
I would think nutrition surrounding a workout and in general is very dependent on the individual.
[quote]tw0scoops2 wrote:
Does anyone know how big the OP is? His BF%? Height? How sensitive he is to carbs? Otherwise, I dunno how anyone can really give him any advice on this.
I would think nutrition surrounding a workout and in general is very dependent on the individual.[/quote]
He has a (working) pancreas, doesn’t he?
There may be a range of +/-10 or 20g of CHO but the basic principles will be the same.
[quote]spector711 wrote:
tw0scoops2 wrote:
Does anyone know how big the OP is? His BF%? Height? How sensitive he is to carbs? Otherwise, I dunno how anyone can really give him any advice on this.
I would think nutrition surrounding a workout and in general is very dependent on the individual.
He has a (working) pancreas, doesn’t he?
There may be a range of +/-10 or 20g of CHO but the basic principles will be the same.
[/quote]
Then what would you recommend?
I have been using a variation of the protocol on my cutting diet, I haven’t checked to see it the protocol has changed in the last bit, but this is what I am doing:
2h prior - Breakfast (Protein / Fruit based)
60min - Alpha-GPC
30min - Rosea Rhodiola
15min - Surge Recovery + Power Drive
During - 2.5 (60g) Whey Isolate w/ added salt/potassium and cinnamon (Yummy)
60min post - 2 scoops Whey Isolate
90min post - Meal
Definitely altered, and all my carbs come from a large serving of fruit at breakfast, the Surge Recovery, and a small amount of carbs at the PWO meal. (Veggies excluded from calculations), My cutting has been going tremendously well, and I believe I have gained a bit of lean mass (Although with reduced fat, I may just appear larger)
My strength has either stagnated on lifts or increased on some (Squat/Deadlift stagnated, Military Press/Lunge increased)
Not sure how this will answer the OP’s question, but some anecdotal evidence that this type of routine can really work well on a cutting diet.
Edit: Also, there seems to be confusion on what people think experts on the subject prescribe. Make sure you know what angle the expert is talking from. If you talk to a sports trainer, of course he will advocate carbs after a workout, as he wants glycogen to be filled most, if not all, the time for athletes. A bodybuilding perspective can focus on giving enough glycogen before a workout, then really not give a shit about levels after (Hence focus on pre-workout carbs)
The former is performance based, the latter, body composition based; different nutrition for different goals.
[quote]silverhydra wrote:
I have been using a variation of the protocol on my cutting diet, I haven’t checked to see it the protocol has changed in the last bit, but this is what I am doing:
2h prior - Breakfast (Protein / Fruit based)
60min - Alpha-GPC
30min - Rosea Rhodiola
15min - Surge Recovery + Power Drive
During - 2.5 (60g) Whey Isolate w/ added salt/potassium and cinnamon (Yummy)
60min post - 2 scoops Whey Isolate
90min post - Meal
Definitely altered, and all my carbs come from a large serving of fruit at breakfast, the Surge Recovery, and a small amount of carbs at the PWO meal. (Veggies excluded from calculations), My cutting has been going tremendously well, and I believe I have gained a bit of lean mass (Although with reduced fat, I may just appear larger)
My strength has either stagnated on lifts or increased on some (Squat/Deadlift stagnated, Military Press/Lunge increased)
Not sure how this will answer the OP’s question, but some anecdotal evidence that this type of routine can really work well on a cutting diet.
Edit: Also, there seems to be confusion on what people think experts on the subject prescribe. Make sure you know what angle the expert is talking from. If you talk to a sports trainer, of course he will advocate carbs after a workout, as he wants glycogen to be filled most, if not all, the time for athletes. A bodybuilding perspective can focus on giving enough glycogen before a workout, then really not give a shit about levels after (Hence focus on pre-workout carbs)
The former is performance based, the latter, body composition based; different nutrition for different goals.[/quote]
Outstanding advice Hydra! I really like your protocol and agree on the differences between goals of an athlete vs bodybuilder. Bushi also made a good point about muscles not really being primed for glucose absorption post workout. I think people get more confused about the PWO nutrition rather than the peri because many still advocate that our muscles are primed and soak up Carbs PWO. I think if one gets enough Carbs Peri and Para, you really shouldn’t have to worry too much about PWO other than getting lots of good protein within 30-60 min.
edit: a quote from DR. Ronnie Lowery’s Masochism article:
After lifting, youâ??ll need perhaps 50-100 g of high-glycemic-index carbs eaten (or drank) throughout the post-exercise “nutrient window.” This phenomenon is well-documented and lasts for about two hours after you leave the gym. Muscle enzymes like glycogen synthase and glucose transporters (primarily the GLUT-4 type) are READY at this time. USE THEM! This window of opportunity used to be called the “carb window” by many, but recent data show that co-consumption of protein is advantageous, too.11 Hereâ??s your shot at the holy grail of hypertrophy; donâ??t miss it. If you do, the next few days will be harder on you physically. Youâ??ll likely be more fatigued and recovery will be mediocre.
[quote]humseper wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
humseper wrote:
Immediately post workout : 75-100g maltodextrin or waxy maize (upper end for bigger bodyparts), 1 scoop Anatrop, 25g whey
?
I’m not sure where you got the idea that this forms part of the paraworkout plan my friend, but it doesn’t.
Your muscles are not really primed to accept glucose immediately post workout, due to catecholamine release during exercise.
Scratch this and you should quickly notice that you are drier and leaner.
BBB
I got this protocol on Elitefitness. It was written by Justin Harris.
So would this be a optimal protocol for cutting:
30 min Preworkout: 30g maltodextrin, 1 scoop Anatrop, 15g whey
During workout; 30g waxy maize, 1 scoop Anatrop
20 min later; 50g complex carbs, 30g whey
This is actually the opposite of what Shelby Starnes recommended. He said no pre and during carb and only after, so I am a bit confused.
[/quote]
OP: From what I have seen the large majority of bodybuilders follow something similar to what Shelby and Justin have recommended. They have obviously gotten good results with it as well, so it must not be that bad.
However, CT has some new recommendations on the subject and since he is the main trainer on this site most of the recommendations you get are from his new protocols. His results seem to be positive as well. So my advice is just to pick one, stick with it, and focus on training as hard as possible.
[quote]AzCats wrote:
I think people get more confused about the PWO nutrition rather than the peri because many still advocate that our muscles are primed and soak up Carbs PWO. I think if one gets enough Carbs Peri and Para, you really shouldn’t have to worry too much about PWO other than getting lots of good protein within 30-60 min.
[/quote]
You do realize that Para, Peri, Post, and Pre all start with the letter ‘P’ right? And that ‘para’ isn’t really a prefix to any word that could remotely pertain to bodybuilding? And that when referring to the nutrition around your workout (pre, during, and post) the correct term would be peri-workout?
Sorry, I have nothing of substance to add to the actual discussion, but people throwing random words that start with ‘p’ in front of ‘workout’ is beginning to drive me nuts.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
AzCats wrote:
I think people get more confused about the PWO nutrition rather than the peri because many still advocate that our muscles are primed and soak up Carbs PWO. I think if one gets enough Carbs Peri and Para, you really shouldn’t have to worry too much about PWO other than getting lots of good protein within 30-60 min.
You do realize that Para, Peri, Post, and Pre all start with the letter ‘P’ right? And that ‘para’ isn’t really a prefix to any word that could remotely pertain to bodybuilding? And that when referring to the nutrition around your workout (pre, during, and post) the correct term would be peri-workout?
Sorry, I have nothing of substance to add to the actual discussion, but people throwing random words that start with ‘p’ in front of ‘workout’ is beginning to drive me nuts.
[/quote]
Hmm, I have always looked at it as Peri= (pre or before) Para= (During) Post =(post). Anyways, I think you know what I meant. 
I stand corrected thanks
[quote]AzCats wrote:
VTBalla34 wrote:
AzCats wrote:
I think people get more confused about the PWO nutrition rather than the peri because many still advocate that our muscles are primed and soak up Carbs PWO. I think if one gets enough Carbs Peri and Para, you really shouldn’t have to worry too much about PWO other than getting lots of good protein within 30-60 min.
You do realize that Para, Peri, Post, and Pre all start with the letter ‘P’ right? And that ‘para’ isn’t really a prefix to any word that could remotely pertain to bodybuilding? And that when referring to the nutrition around your workout (pre, during, and post) the correct term would be peri-workout?
Sorry, I have nothing of substance to add to the actual discussion, but people throwing random words that start with ‘p’ in front of ‘workout’ is beginning to drive me nuts.
Hmm, I have always looked at it as Peri= (pre or before) Para= (During) Post =(post). Anyways, I think you know what I meant. :)[/quote]
Peri means “surrounding or around”. As is “PERImeter”.
Para means “alongside of or near”. Para-nutrition is the specific term to descrbie the nutrition protocol that CT has popularized.
Making up your own definitions of words doesn’t help anyone.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
humseper wrote:
Immediately post workout : 75-100g maltodextrin or waxy maize (upper end for bigger bodyparts), 1 scoop Anatrop, 25g whey
?
I’m not sure where you got the idea that this forms part of the paraworkout plan my friend, but it doesn’t.
Your muscles are not really primed to accept glucose immediately post workout, due to catecholamine release during exercise.
Scratch this and you should quickly notice that you are drier and leaner.
BBB[/quote]
I am usually not into cutting, but I am very interested in how my body comp would change by altering my current plan. What would be ideal in your opinion for Pre workout and Peri workout nutrition? I am assuming that only proteins will be consumed from PWO on.
[quote]2thepain wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
humseper wrote:
Immediately post workout : 75-100g maltodextrin or waxy maize (upper end for bigger bodyparts), 1 scoop Anatrop, 25g whey
?
I’m not sure where you got the idea that this forms part of the paraworkout plan my friend, but it doesn’t.
Your muscles are not really primed to accept glucose immediately post workout, due to catecholamine release during exercise.
Scratch this and you should quickly notice that you are drier and leaner.
BBB
I am usually not into cutting, but I am very interested in how my body comp would change by altering my current plan. What would be ideal in your opinion for Pre workout and Peri workout nutrition? I am assuming that only proteins will be consumed from PWO on.
[/quote]
Protein + Fat for the rest of the day.