[quote]Sloth wrote:
I find it hilarious that the number one spot on the ticket is so damn horrible, that not even Paul Ryan is adequate enough to offset how weak Romney is. If this ticket loses it won’t be because of Paul Ryan. And, who exactly is this mystery VP candidate that Romney was supposed to pick. Who was this Mr/Ms personality, celebutante, that the american public was going to swoon for? America’s Olympic sweetheart, Gabby Douglas? I know it couldn’t possibly be Jindal or Rubio. Not if we’re talking non-nerdy, brimming with personality. [/quote]
I think barring a “…and you are no John Kennedy…” or a Reagan “…Voodoo Ecomonmics…” moment, they will a) not sway many one way of the other and b) will, like the VP debates, be a wash.
We simply know already (mostly) where Romney and the President stand.
Just as much as the public has/will have for him…The polls were starting to look ominous for Romney before the VP pick. While I’m not as enamored with Ryan as some of my conservative brethren, Ryan oozes competency. Especially when it comes to knowing and explaining the scope of our financial problems. He’s neither a folksy ditz, or a raging bomb thrower. So, personality wise, he’s fine against Biden. Heck, Palin was seen as more likeable than Biden in their debate. The supposed dragon lady! It’s Romney. Has been and will be.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:<<< I feel like the media framed her so negative that 5th grader could have beaten her in the eye of the general public.[/quote]For an absolute amateur in that arena? I thought she did fine though I’ve never been much of a fan of hers. Biden is no tremor inducing formidable foe anyway. Here’s a preview of this season’s vice presidential debate.
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[quote]Mufasa wrote:
He is also smart enough to know to not get into a “facts-and-figures” argument with Ryan, but keep the debate in the area of the “Overall Vision”.
Mufasa[/quote]
And that is the problem. Has Obama even had one ad or speach offering any solutions? Seems to me his entire run so far has been “look at how evil of a person so-an-so is”, and “I’m stuck with so-an-so’s mess, it takes time to clean it up”. All he does is point fingers and rip others, all the while not offering anything of substance to fix the god damn problem.
The American voting public can’t be this blind, can they? Even if the Romney/Ryan plan sucks, at least they have a fucking plan. Not pure deflection and theater.
Well in Obama’s defense, at least he isn’t lying over and over and over about what he will do this time. Because he isn’t telling us what he will do.
Just as much as the public has/will have for him…The polls were starting to look ominous for Romney before the VP pick. While I’m not as enamored with Ryan as some of my conservative brethren, Ryan oozes competency. Especially when it comes to knowing and explaining the scope of our financial problems. He’s neither a folksy ditz, or a raging bomb thrower. So, personality wise, he’s fine against Biden. Heck, Palin was seen as more likeable than Biden in their debate. The supposed dragon lady! It’s Romney. Has been and will be.
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Question then, Sloth:
This can’t be overcome by a fired-up Conservative base, voting in record numbers?
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
He is also smart enough to know to not get into a “facts-and-figures” argument with Ryan, but keep the debate in the area of the “Overall Vision”.
Mufasa[/quote]
And that is the problem. Has Obama even had one ad or speach offering any solutions? Seems to me his entire run so far has been “look at how evil of a person so-an-so is”, and “I’m stuck with so-an-so’s mess, it takes time to clean it up”. All he does is point fingers and rip others, all the while not offering anything of substance to fix the god damn problem.
The American voting public can’t be this blind, can they? Even if the Romney/Ryan plan sucks, at least they have a fucking plan. Not pure deflection and theater.
Well in Obama’s defense, at least he isn’t lying over and over and over about what he will do this time. Because he isn’t telling us what he will do.[/quote]
CB:
This is true of BOTH sides…
Pointing out what’s wrong with the other side…and very weak on specifics.
Just as much as the public has/will have for him…The polls were starting to look ominous for Romney before the VP pick. While I’m not as enamored with Ryan as some of my conservative brethren, Ryan oozes competency. Especially when it comes to knowing and explaining the scope of our financial problems. He’s neither a folksy ditz, or a raging bomb thrower. So, personality wise, he’s fine against Biden. Heck, Palin was seen as more likeable than Biden in their debate. The supposed dragon lady! It’s Romney. Has been and will be.
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Question then, Sloth:
This can’t be overcome by a fired-up Conservative base, voting in record numbers?
Mufasa[/quote]
Anything is possible. If that’s the strat, Paul Ryan is a good pick. Though it would be light years more likely if he were headlining.
The American voting public can’t be this blind, can they? Even if the Romney/Ryan plan sucks, at least they have a fucking plan. Not pure deflection and theater.
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This. Ryan actually tries to do SOMETHING. The video I posted earlier of Ryan and Timmie talking about the Obama/Paul plans demonstrates as much. Timmie has to admit that their ‘plan’ is a kick-the-can-down-the-road a few years ‘plan.’ That they don’t have a real plan, they just know they don’t like Ryan’s.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I could give you other examples, winning a televised debate has less to do with facts and figures and more to do with personality. And from what I can tell of Ryan he would need a personality transplant before he would ever win a televised debate…I am very sorry to say.[/quote]
Biden, Zeb. It’s just Biden.[/quote]
Yeah, the guy who beat Sarha Palin, that Joe Biden. [/quote]
Not due to personality. Palin was more likeable! But it was Biden who was best able to express his ideas and qualifications. Which, when up against Palin, isn’t a surprise.[/quote]
I didn’t say she lost because Biden was more likeable. But she did lose.
[quote]Ryan is not Palin. He can and will discuss the big issues intelligently, without having to rely on folksy charm to get by. He’ll have Biden gaffing, and losing his temper, as he fails to keep up in sounding like he knows what the hell is going on with the debt and economy.
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Well, I certainly hope you’re right Sloth. But I wouldn’t be quick to dismiss folksy charm. It worked really well for a guy we both admire, Ronald Reagan.
If Biden has anything close to that sort of charm in his debate(s) with Ryan he’ll win. We all know that Ryan has as good a grasp of economnic issues as anyone on the public scene. I just hope he can deliver the message without sounding like a geek. If he can’t Biden then comes off as the wise old grandfather type that you just want to put your arm around.
Politics and especially debates are all about image more than facts and figures.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ chicken man Unions will come back , probably as a political party . With out unions Business will walk all over labor , I promise [/quote]
I don’t want to derail the thread any further. I personally LIKE what I see in Ryan, but I’m a conservative he is very much in line with my politics.
Unions are a funny topic, probably deserving it’s own thread.[/quote]
I too like Paul Ryan and I don’t think that I disagree with one thing he’s said over the past 10 years.
I just don’t see him helping the ticket politically. By Romney picking Ryan he is essentially putting faith in the American electorate that they’re really ready to choose a team that wants to fix the economy. And…he’s wrong! When they get in the voting booth they’re going to do what they’ve done since the dawning of the media age in 1960 choose a man with the most charisma. Does Ryan help bring that to the ticket? Nope!
Winning is different than governing. You first have to do the first before you can do the latter.[/quote]
I don’t know, Zeb…I’m not disagreeing with you on this one, but just want to throw something out to everyone.
I think that Romney is putting faith not so much in the General Electorate but in the Conservative Base; a base that is angry; hates the President; and is anticipated to vote in record numbers.
Couple this with many who voted for the President across party lines and who were not “typical” DEM voters who don’t support him now…and “bolstering the Conservative Base/putting even more fire into them” was probably a good move.
Mufasa[/quote]
Sorry my friend I cannot agree with you.
The base was already fired up at the thought of getting rid of Obama. What can we say now? They can’t vote twice. That only happens for the democrats in large metropolitan areas of our country.
The people who crossed party lines to vote for Obama are not going to be impressed with Paul Ryan. We had them BEFORE Ryan was added to the mix because of their great disappointment in the media’s chosen one. But, the republicans might lose them because of Ryan
How does Ryan attrack women and independents? Women are notorious for wanting government to take care of them Ryan is the antisithis of this. And independents are well noted for not especially liking right wing ideology.
Well, I certainly hope you’re right Sloth. But I wouldn’t be quick to dismiss folksy charm. It worked really well for a guy we both admire, Ronald Reagan. [/quote]
It’s not that I’m dismissing ‘charm,’ it’s that I’m pointing out that Biden actually made Palin (Republican cruelty incarnate!) seem likeable. He couldn’t out personality one of the most polarizing and vilified figures in recent US Presidential politics. Sounding intelligent/prepared (at least compared to Palin) won him that debate. On personality, it’s at least a wash, if not to Ryan’s advantage. And this time Biden won’t sound more qualified. Ryan knows his stuff like few others serving right now.
[quote]ZEB wrote:<<< I didn’t say she lost because Biden was more likeable. But she did lose. >>>[/quote]Not by much. Biden is no cerebral powerhouse nor an especially capable debater. Ryan will beat him down while doing a crossword puzzle without looking up. [quote]ZEB wrote:<<< Politics and especially debates are all about image more than facts and figures. [/quote]How bout we try n change that now? Good a time as any. No? We don’t want to take a stab at elevating public political prowess a bit? Just keep catering to the lowest hanging fruit until Bart Simpson is elected president? I understand your point and position. It’s very pragmatic. I just don’t see it as as having any long term viability.
That won’t work any better than Romney asking Obama to get his campaign out of the gutter. Americans are famous for claiming that they hate negative politics. Yet, they drink it in like a thirsty man who has been walking in the desert. That’s why Obama leads Romney by about 8 points right now. 40 days of unanswered negative attacks by Obama has worked! And when they do it to Ryan it will work. Romney is living in never never land if he thinks that the electorate is actually ready to hear the truth. In fact I’m shocked at his naivete. And equally impressed with the scum running Obama’s campaign. Say what you will about them, they DO understand the electorate.
Going the path of claiming that “we now have substance” over “style” is a loser’s journey. Because most people vote from emotion NOT facts and figures. As I said Paul Ryan might not be the worst pick but he has to be very close to it.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:<<< I feel like the media framed her so negative that 5th grader could have beaten her in the eye of the general public.[/quote]For an absolute amateur in that arena? I thought she did fine though I’ve never been much of a fan of hers. Biden is no tremor inducing formidable foe anyway. Here’s a preview of this season’s vice presidential debate.
[/quote]
Did no one see Palin Couric interview ?[/quote]
A better question would be, “did anyone see the unedited version of the Palin Couric interview?”
That won’t work any better than Romney asking Obama to get his campaign out of the gutter. Americans are famous for claiming that they hate negative politics. Yet, they drink it in like a thirsty man who has been walking in the desert. That’s why Obama leads Romney by about 8 points right now. 40 days of unanswered negative attacks by Obama has worked! And when they do it to Ryan it will work. Romney is living in never never land if he thinks that the electorate is actually ready to hear the truth. In fact I’m shocked at his naivete. And equally impressed with the scum running Obama’s campaign. Say what you will about them, they DO understand the electorate.
Going the path of claiming that “we now have substance” over “style” is a loser’s journey. Because most people vote from emotion NOT facts and figures. As I said Paul Ryan might not be the worst pick but he has to be very close to it. [/quote]Assuming all this is true, which I’m not denying, then what do you think it says for our future?
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
And concerning the PRESIDENTIAL debates?
I think barring a “…and you are no John Kennedy…” or a Reagan “…Voodoo Ecomonmics…” moment, they will a) not sway many one way of the other and b) will, like the VP debates, be a wash.
We simply know already (mostly) where Romney and the President stand.
Mufasa[/quote]
Not so fast Mufasa. The first Kerry/Bush debate was so one sided for Kerry that it gave him a boost in the polls of nearly 5pts… In fact, Bush didn’t get those numbers back until he went head to head with Kerry in the second debate and gave a credible performance.
I will go so far as to say that they only hope that Romney has left is to kick Obama’s ass in that first debate. I am betting that Obama doesn’t get pushed too hard by staff members. And we know that the media has thrown him softballs for four years. On top of that Obama pretty much lost every debate to Hillary Clinton four years ago, that is absolutely NOT his forte. Romney on the other hand has been pushed, shoved and stepped on by the media and his republican opponents. He is battle hardened. And won’t get rattled under the glaring TV lights with no teleprompter.
If Romney is to ever have a chance of winning this election (after so many very poor campaign decisions) it will be in those three debates against Obama.
Going the path of claiming that “we now have substance” over “style” is a loser’s journey. Because most people vote from emotion NOT facts and figures. As I said Paul Ryan might not be the worst pick but he has to be very close to it. [/quote]
Then you got behind the wrong candidate. Romney was never going to present an emotional campaign against Obama. Him going that route would be like that department store manager who unveils his new ‘team-spirit’ morning meeting cheer to an eye-rolling staff. Corny.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
By the way…(before Zeb sets me straight)!
VP and Presidential debate “Zingers” (like I listed above) while neat to talk about, do NOT necessarily sway elections.
Mufasa[/quote]
They actually do sway elections.
Case in point:
Lloyd Bentsen vs Dan Quayle
When Quayle tried to position himself as old enough for the VP slot he mistakenly brought up the name of JFK…
Lloyd Bentsen: “I knew Jack Kennedy, I worked with Jack Kennedy, Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine, Senator you’re no Jack Kennedy.”
Ronald Reagan vs Walter Mondale
When Walter Mondale questioned Ronald Reagan’s age as a possible stumbling block for a second term…
Ronald Reagan: “I’m not going to take advantage of my opponents youth and inexperience.”
There are many others but these two stand out. This is what people talk about at the water cooler the next day. Not how much money to the dime is going to social security. Ho hum…If Paul Ryan actually wants to look good against uncle Joe Biden he better lease a personality for the evening. Otherwise, at best it will be a snore fest of epic proportions. At worst Biden comes off as folksy and Ryan as a know it all kid.
