[quote]ZEB wrote:
I could give you other examples, winning a televised debate has less to do with facts and figures and more to do with personality. And from what I can tell of Ryan he would need a personality transplant before he would ever win a televised debate…I am very sorry to say.[/quote]
Biden, Zeb. It’s just Biden.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]stefan128 wrote:
I’m not a big fan of politics for the mere fact that each party just degrades the other one constantly. Anyways, my parents are both Republicans and will be voting for Romney. My mom cannot stand Obama and would disown me if I voted for him, which I am not. I am not a big fan of Obama just because over and over I hear of how he has not done much for the economy. To the point, by just reading and hearing things, I am getting the idea that if Obama gets reelected that the country is literally fucked. The idea that the US will be a shitty place to live and that so on. I will be voting for Romney, but I feel like Obama is going to win due to all the idiots who vote for him just to do it.(I once heard a girl from my school say I cannot wait to vote for Obama, he is so nice.)[/quote]
He depends on these empty headed imbeciles and those who are dependent on a government hand out to win. And of course I don’t want to leave out the unions. He has rewarded them handsomely for his 08’ win and they’ll be there again this year. [/quote]
Zeb;
I’m sure the Romney will have just as many empty headed imbeciles who are dependent on government hand outs AND Union Members voting for him.
Mufasa[/quote]
You’re sure of that huh? Is that because of my statement? Because you are dead wrong. The democratic party of 2012 is made up of those exact people and a few other groups. Do you honestly think that the 100 million people who collect some form of aid from the government want Obama replaced? Do you honestly think that the majority of union members want Obama replaced?
Mufasa, come on you know better.[/quote]
For the record, I’m a union member and I, along with all of the other union members I stay in touch with, HATE Obama and cant wait to vote him out of office. Despite what the union leadership mails us, we are not blind nor stupid. There was unmitigated prosperity during the Bush years - all the overtime you could work, then when Obama got elected we had 3000 members sitting on the bench? Union MEMBERS aren’t blind, ZEB. The leadership might be traditionally democratic, but that doesn’t mean that the WORKERS don’t know that under a republican we are far more likely to have that single commodity that is most precious to us: A JOB.
(for clarification, I am not currently working in the union, although I am still a dues paying member - it’s only $25 a month. I’m working in the oilfield. But given the years I spent working union, I have pension and annuity that I’m entitled to even if I never work a union job again, so I continue to pay my dues)[/quote]
Glad to see that you and others you know think for yourselves. But when I said “unions” I of course meant the majority. Naturally not every card carrying union member is going to vote for Obama. But if you take the teachers union for example I would bet that somewhere over 75% of those teachers will be voting Obama. In fact, if I have to I think I can dig up stats from the 08’ election and other previous Presidential elections to prove my point. Unions have been a traditional base of support for the democratic party. Certainly some unions are more democratic, like public service unions for example. [/quote]
That’s true. I’m speaking more of the construction-based unions in/around the Washington DC area (electrical workers, steam fitters, plumbers, sprinkler fitters, elevator workers, carpenters, equipment operators, iron workers, insulators, etc…) We all realize that without a good economy, companies don’t build buildings and we’ll be out of work. We also can look historically and see who was president when we had the worst layoffs and it’s generally a democrat that causes the problem (in construction).
But what’s unique about most construction unions is that the apprenticeship you go through is FAR superior to the non-union alternative and they have a “good workman-like manner” clause in your employment contract. What that means is that if you install something below par or not to code, you will be fired very quickly. I’ve seen people run off the job because they installed some conduit a 1/4 inch off center… When I was an apprentice, the journeyman supervising me made me bend and re-bend a piece of pipe FOUR times before he felt it was acceptable! In other words, we take PRIDE in our work. We wear Redwing boots, drive Ford/Chevy/Dodge/GM trucks, use Klein tools, and are as patriotic as they come. We care about our jobs, our retirement and our children’s future. We don’t get government subsidies, we are paid by private corporations to do high quality work. That’s most CONSTRUCTION unions.
Can’t really say the same thing about the teacher’s unions, teamsters, or the police officer’s union, or other government unions - those unions pretty much exist for the selfish benefit of the organization and members by protecting the corrupt and the incompetent. They serve no purpose other than to use the threat of strike or other work disruption to coerce their employer to give in to whatever demand they have this week.
I don’t want to derail the thread any further, but I think that unions can serve a purpose as long as the MEMBERS stay in control and vote in good officers. The union I belong to, Local 26, actually has a “no strike” clause in our contract. We voted to actually reduce several parts of our package because it was unsustainable in our current economy. It was a VERY close vote, but we decided we’d rather have $0.30 less in my annuity per hour and HAVE A JOB, than fight for getting an extra $0.60 per hour and price ourselves above what was sustainable. But as I said, there are MANY unions out there that are completely corrupt and serve no useful function.
(sorry for the derail)
@ chicken man Unions will come back , probably as a political party . With out unions Business will walk all over labor , I promise
[quote]Bellmar wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
The way I see it, Ryan has balls - something Romney is lacking. He’s not afraid to say what’s on his mind. He says what he means and means what he says. He doesn’t flip-flop like Romney.
CS[/quote]
I get what you’re saying, CS…
The problem is that Romney is at the top of the Ticket.
One point; during an election, the VP choice is often the “attack Dog”. I think that Ryan will HAVE to be (along with SuperPACS) because Romney just doesn’t seem to “comfortable?” in that role.
Mufasa[/quote]
I agree. Romney (for some reason) wants to stay above the fray. I think Ryan will make a good attack dog, although I question that strategy in general.[/quote]
Hey AC, I remember reading about how you were looking for a career change after the real estate regulations changes.
I have a lot of respect for how you were willing to relocate and find work in a different field. I wish more people were willing to do what it takes to make themselves marketable and find work.
[/quote]
Thanks! I really don’t understand why more people don’t do what it takes to get a job. I’ve never collected unemployment, food stamps or wellfare in my life. I figure as long as I’ve two hands, my wits and a strong back I really don’t have any excuses.
Texas education is having problems in part because the ‘unions’ there if you can call them that have absolutely no teeth. The crumby education problems are scaring off all the qualified people. Good experienced teachers are finding work elsewhere and the qualified recent graduates are finding other places too. Turnover is crazy also.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ chicken man Unions will come back , probably as a political party . With out unions Business will walk all over labor , I promise [/quote]
I don’t want to derail the thread any further. I personally LIKE what I see in Ryan, but I’m a conservative he is very much in line with my politics.
Unions are a funny topic, probably deserving it’s own thread.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
For the record, I’m a union member and I, along with all of the other union members I stay in touch with, HATE Obama and cant wait to vote him out of office. Despite what the union leadership mails us, we are not blind nor stupid. There was unmitigated prosperity during the Bush years - all the overtime you could work, then when Obama got elected we had 3000 members sitting on the bench? Union MEMBERS aren’t blind, ZEB. The leadership might be traditionally democratic, but that doesn’t mean that the WORKERS don’t know that under a republican we are far more likely to have that single commodity that is most precious to us: A JOB.
(for clarification, I am not currently working in the union, although I am still a dues paying member - it’s only $25 a month. I’m working in the oilfield. But given the years I spent working union, I have pension and annuity that I’m entitled to even if I never work a union job again, so I continue to pay my dues)[/quote]
I think Unions did a lot of good for this country when they were born and most people won’t argue that paying your employees more and giving them certain benefits actually creates a more robust business and economy than treating them like slaves.
China will be figuring this out soon, and have already started to. The business opportunities all this outsourcing the American people think is evil, will soon lead to the liberation and enrichment of massive portions of the world’s people. But you know, the billions of people that are going to benefit are afterthoughts because Bain sent jobs overseas, and now so-and-so can’t buy an iPhone.
Anyway, I’m getting off track. Unions have become just as corrupt as all these mega corporations everyone wants to hate on, and in some ways have prevented progress.
I’m all fucked up on viocden right now, sorry if my posts make no sense. Had minor, minor surgery on Friday.[/quote]
I agree that many unions have become corrupt and have hampered progress. I think it’ll be interesting if China’s labor market ever “organizes” (we’ll probably start buying shit made in India LOL).
I hope you recover well from your surgery, Beans.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:<<< With out unions Business will walk all over labor , I promise [/quote]Ya know I actually agree with this. Big business would sell it’s own mother and kill it’s own children for five bucks. The only thing worse is unions.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I could give you other examples, winning a televised debate has less to do with facts and figures and more to do with personality. And from what I can tell of Ryan he would need a personality transplant before he would ever win a televised debate…I am very sorry to say.[/quote]
Biden, Zeb. It’s just Biden.[/quote]
Yeah, the guy who beat Sarha Palin, that Joe Biden.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I could give you other examples, winning a televised debate has less to do with facts and figures and more to do with personality. And from what I can tell of Ryan he would need a personality transplant before he would ever win a televised debate…I am very sorry to say.[/quote]
Biden, Zeb. It’s just Biden.[/quote]
Yeah, the guy who beat Sarha Palin, that Joe Biden. [/quote]
I feel like the media framed her so negative that 5th grader could have beaten her in the eye of the general public.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ chicken man Unions will come back , probably as a political party . With out unions Business will walk all over labor , I promise [/quote]
I don’t want to derail the thread any further. I personally LIKE what I see in Ryan, but I’m a conservative he is very much in line with my politics.
Unions are a funny topic, probably deserving it’s own thread.[/quote]
I too like Paul Ryan and I don’t think that I disagree with one thing he’s said over the past 10 years.
I just don’t see him helping the ticket politically. By Romney picking Ryan he is essentially putting faith in the American electorate that they’re really ready to choose a team that wants to fix the economy. And…he’s wrong! When they get in the voting booth they’re going to do what they’ve done since the dawning of the media age in 1960 choose a man with the most charisma. Does Ryan help bring that to the ticket? Nope!
Winning is different than governing. You first have to do the first before you can do the latter.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I could give you other examples, winning a televised debate has less to do with facts and figures and more to do with personality. And from what I can tell of Ryan he would need a personality transplant before he would ever win a televised debate…I am very sorry to say.[/quote]
Biden, Zeb. It’s just Biden.[/quote]
Yeah, the guy who beat Sarha Palin, that Joe Biden. [/quote]
I feel like the media framed her so negative that 5th grader could have beaten her in the eye of the general public.[/quote]
You are correct the media ripped her out of her chair and kicked her to the ground and kept kicking her until she was a laughing stock. But with that said she gave them ample ammunition to do that. On the other hand Joe Biden has also given them many reasons to destroy him, but he is a democrat so he gets a free pass other than the occasional joke he’s just fine in their eyes.
And that is the double standard that is going to be so very difficult for any republican ticket to overcome.
Don’t think for a second that the republicans are only running against Obama…
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I could give you other examples, winning a televised debate has less to do with facts and figures and more to do with personality. And from what I can tell of Ryan he would need a personality transplant before he would ever win a televised debate…I am very sorry to say.[/quote]
Biden, Zeb. It’s just Biden.[/quote]
Yeah, the guy who beat Sarha Palin, that Joe Biden. [/quote]
Not due to personality. Palin was more likeable! But it was Biden who was best able to express his ideas and qualifications. Which, when up against Palin, isn’t a surprise.
Ryan is not Palin. He can and will discuss the big issues intelligently, without having to rely on folksy charm to get by. He’ll have Biden gaffing, and losing his temper, as he fails to keep up in sounding like he knows what the hell is going on with the debt and economy.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:<<< I feel like the media framed her so negative that 5th grader could have beaten her in the eye of the general public.[/quote]For an absolute amateur in that arena? I thought she did fine though I’ve never been much of a fan of hers. Biden is no tremor inducing formidable foe anyway. Here’s a preview of this season’s vice presidential debate.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ chicken man Unions will come back , probably as a political party . With out unions Business will walk all over labor , I promise [/quote]
I don’t want to derail the thread any further. I personally LIKE what I see in Ryan, but I’m a conservative he is very much in line with my politics.
Unions are a funny topic, probably deserving it’s own thread.[/quote]
I too like Paul Ryan and I don’t think that I disagree with one thing he’s said over the past 10 years.
I just don’t see him helping the ticket politically. By Romney picking Ryan he is essentially putting faith in the American electorate that they’re really ready to choose a team that wants to fix the economy. And…he’s wrong! When they get in the voting booth they’re going to do what they’ve done since the dawning of the media age in 1960 choose a man with the most charisma. Does Ryan help bring that to the ticket? Nope!
Winning is different than governing. You first have to do the first before you can do the latter.[/quote]
I don’t know, Zeb…I’m not disagreeing with you on this one, but just want to throw something out to everyone.
I think that Romney is putting faith not so much in the General Electorate but in the Conservative Base; a base that is angry; hates the President; and is anticipated to vote in record numbers.
Couple this with many who voted for the President across party lines and who were not “typical” DEM voters who don’t support him now…and “bolstering the Conservative Base/putting even more fire into them” was probably a good move.
Mufasa
I find it hilarious that the number one spot on the ticket is so damn horrible, that not even Paul Ryan is adequate enough to offset how weak Romney is. If this ticket loses it won’t be because of Paul Ryan. And, who exactly is this mystery VP candidate that Romney was supposed to pick. Who was this Mr/Ms personality, celebutante, that the american public was going to swoon for? America’s Olympic sweetheart, Gabby Douglas? I know it couldn’t possibly be Jindal or Rubio. Not if we’re talking non-nerdy, brimming with personality.
[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
The way I see it, Ryan has balls - something Romney is lacking. He’s not afraid to say what’s on his mind. He says what he means and means what he says. He doesn’t flip-flop like Romney.
CS[/quote]
Actually, he has flip flopped on his ethical and moral philosophy, the fundamental underpinnings of his entire belief system -
“The reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand”
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/43705712.html
“We have to go back to Ayn Rand. Because there is no better place to find the moral case for capitalism and individualism than through Ayn Randâ??s writings and works.”
And now,
"I reject her philosophy,â?? Ryan says firmly. â??Itâ??s an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a personâ??s view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas,â?? who believed that man needs divine help in the pursuit of knowledge. â??Donâ??t give me Ayn Rand,â?? he says.
[quote]and1bball4mk wrote:
[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
The way I see it, Ryan has balls - something Romney is lacking. He’s not afraid to say what’s on his mind. He says what he means and means what he says. He doesn’t flip-flop like Romney.
CS[/quote]
Actually, he has flip flopped on his ethical and moral philosophy, the fundamental underpinnings of his entire belief system -
“The reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand”
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/43705712.html
“We have to go back to Ayn Rand. Because there is no better place to find the moral case for capitalism and individualism than through Ayn Randâ??s writings and works.”
And now,
"I reject her philosophy,â?? Ryan says firmly. â??Itâ??s an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a personâ??s view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas,â?? who believed that man needs divine help in the pursuit of knowledge. â??Donâ??t give me Ayn Rand,â?? he says.
[/quote]
That’s not a flip-flop.
[quote]ZEB wrote:<<< When they get in the voting booth they’re going to do what they’ve done since the dawning of the media age in 1960 choose a man with the most charisma. >>>[/quote]If they were asking me, which of course they aren’t, I’d use that as a campaign weapon. Maybe even a slogan. “FINALLY!! Some substance over style”. Do you want more slick talk America? (Which I never even thought Obama was that. The Denver speech was 200 proof hype and propaganda that I didn’t even think was delivered especially well) OR, do you want some adults with a grasp on the issues and the mechanics of getting them addressed in something vaguely approaching a constitutional manner?
Will that sell? I don’t know. The best possible political scenario there could be is only delaying the inevitable at this point anyway.
How the debates go really depends on the format and how they are framed.
“Killer Joe” is like that popular local car dealer who does is own funny commercials; doesn’t take himself too seriously; but is known to be totally cutthroat when it comes to business. Great guy to laugh and have a beer with…but don’t try to compete against him.
Ryan is an Automotive Engineer by training, who does the finances for “Killer Joe’s” large regional Dealership.
Who “know’s” more about cars? Who “know’s” more about SELLING cars? Who is more “likable”?
Biden is a seasoned politician who knows how to deflect questions with the best. He is also smart enough to know to not get into a “facts-and-figures” argument with Ryan, but keep the debate in the area of the “Overall Vision”.
Who “wins” or “loses” tends to be very partisan…but I think that barring a major gaff AND depending on the Debate Format…the VP debates will end up a wash.
Mufasa
