Pat Tillman is no hero he got what he deserved according to this piece of shit.

mindeffer01 – Nice insults. Very pretty.

Now tell me what I said was wrong? The fact that I think that anyone who goes off to fight a war deserves respect? That any mans life is worth the same, and we shouldn’t toss the word hero on someone just because he was a football player who joined the war? That I’m not celebrity crazed and think that someone giving up their family and minimum wage job is worth the same as someone who is rich? Or that a hero is someone who risks his life to save others?

Tell me which part I’m wrong on… While your at it, toss in some analogy about a chimp and a safe.

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lighly upon you, and posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

-Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.

I heard about that cartoon and the cartoonist also, on FNC. It just proves the world is full of idiots and and evil(lying) people, and some have access to media outlets. However, it doesn’t take away from the fact that they are still fools AND evil. The things this guy said about Tillman were lies and therefore evil.

Don

Speed~ I’m glad other people think it’s no class too. :slight_smile:

I’d like to vent and say, “how could those slimy, pathetic, lowlife media mth**fckers pi*s on someone’s grave like that??? What goes around comes around!” ----aahhh that feels better…

Nights~ From what I understand, Pat Tillman when deciding to give up his $3mm contract to fight the war, refused to give media interviews, stating that his service to our country was no more honorable than any other soldier’s…he obviously didn’t do it for the publicity. And also, don’t forget that he lost his life and is a hero just like all of the other great people who have lost their lives for our great country. And of all the detrimental activities that a lot of people do in this world do (abuse children, sell illegal substances, exploit elderly people, etc…) that harm society, he did something with the purpose to contribute to the better good of society (defend our democracy, dammit!), and he should be honored as much as any of the other soldiers who have lost their lives.

~chinadoll

chinadoll,

You are not only beautiful, but intelligent as well!

Here’s a link to a weblog that shows the panel in that cartoon by Ted Rall to which someone referred above:

http://asmallvictory.net/archives/006670.html

Just scroll down and you will see it.

Thank-you Zeb! Great to see you in this thread!

~chinadoll

That cartoon was pretty F**ked up. The timing was bad also. I happened to watch the memorial service and was moved by all of the speakers and what they had to say, or share, about Pat Tillman and his life. What he gave up to go do is what makes him a hero. No one (with any intellegence) ever said his sacrifice was greater than any other soldier’s. He could have lived on easy street for the rest of his life but was unable to sit back and do nothing. That makes him an exemplary human being and a hero. Disagree if you must but, I hope to be half the man Pat Tillman was. That would be an accomplishment.

Chinadoll – that’s pretty much what I’m saying. I’m saying that there are threads in every board, and media saying that he is a hero on every channel, where there is no mention of anyone else that has died in this war. I don’t understand making him a hero and not even mentioning anyone else. Like I said, I hate the “he was famous, he gave up riches, so he must be a hero” arguement.

The way most people are portraying these events, unless you gave up millions of dollars to go and fight, your life isn’t worth it.

Hmmmm…

At the risk of presenting a coherent thought that runs counter to the blind rush to deify the man…

The froth from the foaming at the mouth patriots is starting to stain my shoes, if the rhetoric could be toned down a bit perhaps an intelligent exchange of ideas would break out.

You never know.

As a Canadian I think that though we are the closest thing to being “American” our lack of strong National identity and liberal bent on social issues tends to allow for less of a pack mentality and breeds a slower, more thoughtful process when it comes to issues like this. Sure, the passion of red hot patriotism is missing and the lack of a fervent regard for ones Homeland disappoints the inner jingoist in us but if we are anything as a nation, we are outstanding Monday Morning Quarterbacks. As such, it looks like it’s Monday already so…

The world knows that “America loves its Heroes”, the masses lined up at Wall Mart like nothing better that to flip through the pages of People magazine to salve the open sores of their dreary existence with gleeful tales of sordid celebrity behaviour and the newest 'Friends" gossip… Did you see Jennifer’s HAIR!!?… Better yet when the pages are filled with hyperbole that stirs the inner patriot and lifts the haze of a mundane existence from their eyes to reveal that goddamnit, they do indeed live in the most powerful, greatest country in the world and while Mr. Keatley down at the plant may make him feel like a buffoon and his kid has chronic nose bleeds from jamming his finger up there all day, his lawn is brown and his house nowhere near as nice as his neighbours, he at least can ride on the glorious coattails of his country.

Greatest in the world.

Patriotism - Bactine for a life less lived.

Before the angry responses and the e-mailing of intellectual gems like “Fuck you” begins, let me clarify…I am NOT speaking of the pure and noble pride in ones country. The emotion stirred when the Star Spangled Banner is NOT mangled by a 14 year old brace-faced, red-headed kid at a professional sporting event but sung with what seems to be the glory and passion that founded America…tears in the eyes kind of emotion…

…No, I am talking about the pre-fabricated drivel that American mass media churns out like Twinkies off the assembly line and too many Americans, shoving and elbowing each other out of the way to ensure that they too get their fill, gobble up by the armloads. Like an abused wife who returns again and again it seems like the sheeple of North American society return to feed at the trough of lies and spin that the Media slops out every morning.

And we LIKE it!

The mob mentality at its worst, made into a kind of social tornado fuelled by the winds of media-manufactured patriotism where a “with us or against us” mentality, as absurd as it sounds on paper, is embraced as a fundamental pillar of patriotism. Even though freedom of thought and belief is what the patriot thinks he is defending, the mere thought that someone would question the Emperors new clothes is treason. I could be wrong but the insults tossed at those who would dare to differ in opinion (no matter how intelligent or logical) makes me think that this just might be the case. I find it odd that there is (little) no outrage against war but there is outrage against whether or not we should define a dead soldier as a “Hero”.

Is the irony bitter enough?

Perhaps we are O.K with war as long as our dead are canonized in what we consider appropriate fashion before we plant them in the ground. A quick peek at the middle east tells us that we are not alone in this mentality. As long as Saleed dies a martyr, his Mother will grieve knowing her son was doing “what’s was right” and in the end, know that he was not only defending his country but he died a great “patriot”. Isn’t this sad?

(yeah, I just compared a “terrorist” to our brave soldiers who are fighting to protect me as I sit comfy behind my keyboard sipping SBC coffee, yada,yada,yada…get over it, if you can raise your sloped brow a bit and manage to get your mind off of drawing on your caves walls for a second, I am only comparing the rationalization in retrospect of a casualty and the disturbing similarities in motivation…if you cannot elevate your intellect this high, please seek out the nearest fifth-grader and have them explain it to you…O.K…that was a cheap shot, I apologize…)

So just what the fuck am I trying to say here?

To be honest, I just started typing and this is where we ended up…maybe it’s that we need more killing. The current level of killing has returned some fairly disappointing results, I am confident that if we could just crank up the killing a bit, things would be as we want them.

Yeah, more killing…that’s the ticket…

…or maybe I am trying to say that although we have “Patriotism” (Media manufactured or the “real” stuff) on our side, the other side thinks that it has GOD on theirs and to think that our resolve is stronger than theirs is a mistake. Old Glory is a beautiful thing but last I heard, GOD trumps all.

Maybe there is a better way?

Maybe the post-mortem definition of a fallen soldier means little if we could demonstrate a little more independant free-thought?

Whatever…carry on…

“You will live your life secure in that you are no longer manipulated by what other people want you to do and be, but are directed by your own inner desires”

  • H. Stanley Judd

mindeffer01:

post-convention thinking/morality has nothing to do with patriotism (blind or otherwise) or the thought that killing one’s enemy is the best solution (or even a solution at all)

a post-conventional person would NOT buy into the propaganda fed to him by his government about a war – he would not pick up weapons to use against another person under any circumstances – post-conventional morality opposes killing under ALL circumstances

fortunately for Bush, only 5-10% of the American population is capable of post-conventional thought

Cupcake: well said (I think . . .)

–Bill

I respect Pat Tillman because he was a true warrior whether it was on the athletic field or the battlefield. I believe people like Pat, people who go into elite units like the Rangers or Special Ops whatever country they come from are a breed apart a cut above!

That being said, I definitely feel what CupCake is saying in his post. Blind Patriotism is a childlike way of looking at things and an easy way to be led.

“Against Killing in all circumstances”

Great theory as long as you dont mind everyone doing the fighting for ya. Pacifism is wonderful, kinda like communism, but it doesnt work.

Id also like to point out that Tillman is a symbol.

Yes the media spews whatever it can to make a buck. But remember the bias in media isnt for the war, hence little positive coverage of Iraq. It doesnt make sense to argue that he is some sort of propaganda. Lets just be happy they are focusing on a great guy, are there more like em. Sure, but he makes a great representative for them since we cant find all of them, a great role model for kids to aspire to be like.

Finally, this guy isnt the average person and anybody that takes the time to do some checking will find that he was something else, besides the money issue and the NFL career.

I say, cheers to the media, lets get more coverage on this guy. I bet people wouldnt be complaining if this was the revolution and we were all touting George Washington.

My two cents.

The strength of character of Tillman is not the issue, nor is the “value” of his sacrifice (both financial and ultimately his life). I think that a higher issue is the glorification of a victim to feed what can only be described as a selfish, soulless media machine. Sure they are making a buck off of someone who can be admired but even if it was Mother Theresa, shouldn’t we be questioning the “why’s” a little more than rolling in the eloquence of his eulogy?

From an intellectual point of view shouldn’t we be angry that he had to die at all? Why does it seem that the opportunity to set his memory ablaze in a pyre of heroism seems to make it all better?

Slapping a “pacifist” label on everyone who is enlightened enough to know that we didn’t get these opposable thumbs just so we can grip the stock of our M16’s properly isn’t a good enough argument. Especially now that we have a mess that can only be cleaned up by escalating violence and death. I am not so naive as to believe that there are any non-violent options to extricate ourselves from this conflict but for Christ’s sake I sure hope that the human race would learn something from it (we won’t, we never do).

The Greatest Civilization in the history of Earth…and the very, very best we can come up with to resolve a conflict is to kill each other.

Humanity should hang it’s head in shame…and while we are at it maybe we should give the Dolphins a shot at the opposable thumbs and see what they could accomplish with 'em because we are still doing the same things we did thousands of years ago.

Nice progress human race…nice progress.

“What do I think of Western civilisation? I think it would be a very good idea”

  • Mohandas Gandhi

http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_article.php?artnum=20040502

The Uncelebrity
Pat Tillman, R.I.P.

The European newspapers and Arab television images of the average American soldier this week are full of atrocity. The appalling, sickening and immoral pictures of some American military miscreants in the Abu Ghraib prison deserve to be broadcast and the prime minister and president are right to condemn them and be disgusted by them. Those who always opposed removing Saddam Hussein from power - a man who perpetrated real atrocities and mass murder on a scale unimaginable to those of us in the comfort of the West - will seize on these images to further their belief in the evil of the United States. But these images are emphatically not the fundamental truth of the American military; and they are not the fundamental truth of the United States.

To give you a glimpse of a different reality, consider the case of a young man the Guardian would never dream of running above the fold on its front page, except out of schadenfreude. The details of his death in combat are like many such deaths. He was killed nine days ago serving with the 75th Ranger Regiment in the wastes of Afghanistan in a fire-fight with al Qaeda remnants. He was painfully young - 27 years old - and strikingly handsome. In American popular culture, he was a star. He’d gone to a public university, Arizona State, and graduated with high honors with a degree in marketing. He then went on to become a professional American football player - not the best, not the biggest, but certainly one of the more spirited players of the game. His team was the Arizona Cardinals. When he was offered a much more lucrative offer with the St Louis Rams, he turned them down out of loyalty to the team that had drafted him, the team from the city he called home.

And then like the rest of us, he woke up one morning to discover that a handful of religious fanatics were in the process of murdering thousands of innocents in the middle of New York City. But unlike many of the rest of us, he decided that his country was at war and that he had a duty to fight in it. He had just been offered a $3.6 million deal to play for the Cardinals. He turned it down for a salary of $18,000 to train as a fighter in a war that is still just beginning.

When I first heard about Tillman a couple of years ago, a few things struck me about him. The first was not just his obvious sincerity, but the fact that he refused any media interviews whatever. Search Google for a single one. They don’t exist. Here was a story too rich and heroic to be ignored by a post-9/11 media, eager for personal stories to exemplify the changes and decisions and tragedies beginning to unfold. And some stories were indeed written. On my website, I made Tillman my personal man of the year for doing what he did. But at no point did Tillman answer a phone call, go to a television studio, return calls to book agents or even go on the radio to discuss his decision to abort a very lucrative career for a dangerous war. His point was a simple one. This wasn’t about him. He was one among many other volunteers - young men and women from all over the United States and Britain and other countries who volunteered to fight in a new kind of campaign, where the rules of traditional warfare had been suspended. He wasn’t special, his silence said. He wasn’t different. He was just doing his duty, as he saw it. Quietly. Simply. But without hesitation.

When you look around our culture today and you see what celebrity does to human beings, how it destroys their souls, rapes their privacy, separates their own sense of who they are from the quiet reality of their own souls, it is sometimes astonishing simply to watch someone walk away from it. The Un-Beckham, if you will. And then when you look and you see how wealthy and famous and fabulous so many become because of things they should actually be ashamed of - the newspaper plagiarists, the forbidden girlfriends and boyfriends of married media stars, the disgraced politicians, the corrupted reporters, the criminals and murderers whose fifteen minutes stretch into a cable television eternity - then again it is astonishing to watch someone at the center of a such a culture and be so utterly unaffected by it. “He just viewed life through a different prism than a lot of other people do,” a Sports Illustrated reporter said of him. That prism, in retrospect, was integrity.

You can read each day in every paper and see festooned across such outlets as the BBC the numerous failings of the coalition in Iraq and Afghanistan. The hideous images from Abu Ghraib will only serve to reinforce the impression. A New England college website posted the views of one such anti-war campaigner. “Tillman, probably acting out his nationalist-patriotic fantasies forged in years of exposure to Clint Eastwood and Rambo movies, decided to insert himself into a conflict he didn’t need to insert himself into,” the writer opined. “It wasn’t like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable. What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It’s hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don’t feel like his ‘service’ was necessary. He wasn’t defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in.”

Every sentence in that paragraph is a lie or the extension of a lie. Pat Tillman died precisely because he was defending the East coast of the United States from a foreign invasion, an invasion launched on September 11, 2001. He was and is part of an army that has liberated one country in the grip of a theo-fascist thugocracy in Afghanistan and a fathomlessly brutal one in Iraq. He did so because the West was attacked, and because the fear of another attack with weapons of mass destruction made a response justified and vital. Unlike the pseudo-heroes of “Rambo,” Tillman deflected attention away from himself, he eschewed heroics and fame. In short, he did what every soldier has to do: he faced terror and fear and violence with a calm and self-effacement and dignity that few of us manage at an average day at the office.

Yes, we should deal with Abu Ghraib. Those responsible should be hounded out of military service and prosecuted under military justice. But those images must also be placed next to those of the murderers of Danny Pearl, whose crime was being a Jew and whose throat was slit open in a video still not shown. Or the video of a murdered Italian hostage who fought back on videotape against his captors, tried to remove his hood, and told them that this was “the Italian way to die.” No images of him yet shown. and next to them all, Pat Tillman, who is now an ineradicable assault upon the cliches that some wish to bestow on America and the West as a whole.

The indictment of the West is that it is shamelessly materialist, soulless, obsessed with celebrity, entranced by superficiality, addicted to the spin of appearances, the cult of contemporaneity. Much of this is, of course, true. But it is only part of the truth. It is also true that another America and another West exists. An America that is now risking the lives of its youngest and brightest to protect others; an America that is spending billions to reconstruct a devastated country and is happy to do so through a barrage of hatred and resentment; an America where, beneath the glittering surface, real virtues - of sacrifice and honor and duty - actually do endure. “There is in Pat Tillman’s example,” senator John McCain said last week, “in his unexpected choice of duty to his country over the riches and other comforts of celebrity, and in his humility, such an inspiration to all of us to reclaim the essential public-spiritedness of Americans that many of us, in low moments, had worried was no longer our common distinguishing trait.”

Well it is still a distinguishing trait. And when it emerges in the least obvious of places - in the celebrity glamor of pro football - it’s worth taking a moment to place it alongside the images from Abu Ghraib. Without it, the world would be a far darker place. Without it, the freedom to criticize a war would be impossible. Pat Tillman is no nobler than any of the other hundreds of dead and thousands of wounded who are the victims - along with so many of the Afghan and Iraqi people - of the horror of war. But he saw two critical things: that we are at war and that each of us has a responsibility, in different ways, to fight back. Except he also added one more thing. He wouldn’t want this or any column to be written about someone like him. Which is why, every now and again, it must be.

I disagree here Cupcake. You’re arguing a lack of advancement.

We have slowly advanced. Yes we still fight, but we now concentrate on avoiding the killing of non combatants. We have rules which govern our warfighting to limit it to those who are causing the problem. 100% efficient…no. Never will be.

The ideal of a lack of war and killing is great, but it doesnt work when there is an infinitely expanding population competing for limited resources.

Furthermore, there is no diplomatic approach to facing a group of people who wish death to a nation they havent even seen. I think one can argue that Islamic fundamentalism is not advancing but regressing. The victicrat mentality of Arab extremism blaims us for their lot, and there is nothing we can do, we cant give them $$$ or food. It doesnt matter, they want our heads.

Pat died in Afghanistan a place we should be. Thanks to previous administrations passing the buck, we got Sept 11 which ended up with an army in the Ghan instead of the CIA.

And Ghandi would have been a corpse if he wasnt in India or like Martin Luther King in America, it takes a civilization for these peaceful solutions to work in the first place. Ghandi would have been great fertilizer for poppies in Afghanistan.

Yes, Im angry he had to die at all.

But this isnt some result of a lack of multiculturism in the States. Its a bunch of islamic fundamentalists fault. Thats what we have to remember.

Boston thats the stuff.

I’m sorry that Pat Tillman died.

But after all the weeks of blatant lying that the military and White House did about Jessica Lynch and what a big hero she supposedly was, I am taking this Pat Tillman story with a grain of salt.

For all we know, Pat Tillman actually died an accidental death, and not in battle as they are reporting.

I don’t believe anything the White House says any more, they have proven themselves to be blatant liars.