P-22 Test Tapering Thread

Pharma
101

P22’s old PCT taper included the staunch advacocy of NO ANTI-E’s, and an admission that it takes longer than traditional PCTs:

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
So this pct may take longer than some people’s idea of pct using nolva or clomid, hcg e.t.c, but in the end and throughout the above advantages will be quite apparrent. [/quote]

Now his PCT includes the staunch advocacy of using them…then he says this is just “as he said before”:

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
as I said before, the hpta is not fully suppressed when using testosterone in weekly doses below 100 mg of Enathate per week, if used concurrently with an anti E

[/quote]

I forget…what exactly are we tapering here?

Oh, thats right…Masteron and Testosterone. Now I remember:

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
Actually if you have read everything I have said on tapering, my favorite taper is a 50/50 combo of masteron and testosteron. Proviron would work pretty much the same way.
[/quote]

Wait…now I’m confused:

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
When using gear that isn’t testosterone, such as Deca or EQ, you have wait untill levels of such gear are so low that they won’t interfere with recovery at all. [/quote]

Are we tapering with just test? Because you said that if people had read EVERYTHING you wrote on the subject, it’s clear that your favorite taper is with masteron and test. Now you’re saying you need to let all other drugs besides the test clear out…

First you don’t need an anti-estrogen, now you do, first you taper with test and masteron, now you need to let all non-test drugs clear out…

103

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
P22’s old PCT taper included the staunch advacocy of NO ANTI-E’s, and an admission that it takes longer than traditional PCTs:

…[/quote]

Dude, now your just getting ridiculous. I hope/know you understand the principals of what P22 was saying and now your just making things up.

If you dont agree with it fine, but really… if you read what he posted you know you just mixed words around to make that last sensless argument. Your just getting silly now and embarissing yourself.

The bottom line is this: either you own natural test production will start again without anti-E’s and HCG while on a HRT level of test or it wont. If you worry about ball shrinkage
P22 suggested the possibilty of an anti E during cycle. He doesnt use this is why he never stated it before when he first posted about tapering over a year ago.

You like your way better without trying his way. so be it. Argue how your own test wont com back on line… find something credible, cuz this shit is weak… MaleOneUpManShip aint gonna make anybody on this site have a better cycle.

104

Just to keep a couple things in perspective here for those saying that such a low dose shouldn’t interfere with HPTA recovery… A 100mg shot of Deca-Durabolin delivers 65mg of nandrolone, the rest of the weight is the ester. A 100mg shot of T-propionate delivers 83mg of testosterone. The average man with a normally funtionion endocrine system produces 4-7mg of testosterone a day- 28-49mg per week. A 50mg shot of propionate (about 42mg test) suddenly doesn’t look so small when you start to realize how very little your body actually produces with a normal, healthy HPTA.

Trying to restore your testosterone production from nil while still introducing more T than the average male produces in a week isn’t going to happen until you stop shooting up, period. Tapering isn’t about transistioning back to a normally functioning endocrine system quickly, and discontinuing AAS- it’s a way to involve youself in AAS use for 6 more weeks to extend the maximum retention of on-cycle gains.

Tapering is not going to be for everybody. Some people prefer to use steroids as an occasional plateau busting tool… not as an artificial crutch that will result in eternal dependance to maintain genetically unrealistic gains.

105

[quote]Viking69 wrote:
Anthony Roberts wrote:
P22’s old PCT taper included the staunch advacocy of NO ANTI-E’s, and an admission that it takes longer than traditional PCTs:

…

Dude, now your just getting ridiculous. I hope/know you understand the principals of what P22 was saying and now your just making things up.

If you dont agree with it fine, but really… if you read what he posted you know you just mixed words around to make that last sensless argument. Your just getting silly now and embarissing yourself.

The bottom line is this: either you own natural test production will start again without anti-E’s and HCG while on a HRT level of test or it wont. If you worry about ball shrinkage
P22 suggested the possibilty of an anti E during cycle. He doesnt use this is why he never stated it before when he first posted about tapering over a year ago.

You like your way better without trying his way. so be it. Argue how your own test wont com back on line… find something credible, cuz this shit is weak… MaleOneUpManShip aint gonna make anybody on this site have a better cycle.
[/quote]

I agree 100%. I understand that business-wise this is you trying to make a dollar, but you not only make yourself less credible and are just antagonizing P22. By trying to promote your personal interests, be it in chemical companies or on a personal level, you are not going to change people’s opinions on the subject as seen in the past.

106

[quote]RoidEnthusiast wrote:
Just to keep a couple things in perspective here for those saying that such a low dose shouldn’t interfere with HPTA recovery… A 100mg shot of Deca-Durabolin delivers 69mg of nandrolone, the rest of the weight is the ester. A 100mg shot of T-propionate delivers 83mg of testosterone. The average man with a normally funtionion endocrine system produces 4-7mg of testosterone a day- 28-49mg per week. A 50mg shot of propionate (about 42mg test) suddenly doesn’t look so small when you start to realize how very little your body actually produces with a normal, healthy HPTA.
[/quote]

Thats a really interesting point. But wouldn’t this number be slightly less depending on injection site, amount lost in syringe and at injection site, speed of which it enters the body, etc. There have to be numerous factors that influence the actual amount of the drug that enters your system and I would be surprised if it was anywhere close to 100% of what was injected.

107

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
(and I deduct you could use any other anti E as the suppresion was shown to be caused by estrogen).

That’s a hell of a deduction, since the anti-e that the study actually used is anti-estrogenic (an estrogen antagonist) directly at the hypothalamus/pituitary, and doesn’t actually reduce estrogen levels in the body. From that, you have deduced that anything which reduces estrogen will work. How would an aromatase inhibitor (another type of anti estrogen) be in any way imaginable, anything similar to the drug used in that study (Clomid, a SERM, not an AI)?

I’m finding these leaps to be totally unfounded here…[/quote]

lol! back for another round are you?

This is an obvious deduction. The study stated clomephenes mechanism of action that prevented gonadotropin suppression was via blockage of the estrogen receptor that control the negative feed back loop.

Knowing what we know about the physiology of the negative feed back system, we know that keeping E low will attain a simmilar result to out right blockage of E at the receptor.

Now when you factor in the fact that I don’t believe it is healthy to allow estrogen levels to rise above physiological norms in males at any point during a cycle, it makes a good fit to use the AI throughout the cycle,and taper it as you taper the test.

If you want to add in clomid as well at the end of the cycle or during the taper, fine by me, but I don’t think it is neccessary if you have kept E in check throughout the cycle, and through the taper.

Many find the sides of Clomid intolerable, and I personally prefer AI to serms.

108

[quote]jjay wrote:
Alright your test is at a normal range at 100 mg but it’s from injecting ? Your natural production is still down 50% at least ? Then the taper is over and you wait 4-6 weeks and start again. After a while can that cause permenant damage to your natural production ? [/quote]

As you taper the exogenous test, your endogenous production increases to make up for any defincit in your body’s needs.

There is absolutely no damage done whatsoever, as the only drugs used is testosterone, and an anti E.

109

[quote]gettinbigger wrote:
P-22,
Would you recommend a test taper for any cycle? Or is it most applicable to longer cycles with very suppressive drugs?

For instance it has been theorized that Primobolan Depot isn’t totally suppressive to the HPTA (except at high dosages). So if someone did a mild (400-600mg/wk) cycle of primo for say 8 weeks wouldn’t it be better to just use the natural taper of the enanthate ester coupled with some clomid for a few weeks post cycle rather than injecting test which is potentially more supressive of your natural test than the primobolan would be? In that same light, could a drug like primobolan depot be used to taper off, maybe with even more success than with test since it is supposed to be less supressive of your natural test production?

One more question, Bill Roberts theorized that a low dose of oral’s (ie. dbol) could be used 1st thing in the morning with very little suppression to the HPTA. Could this method be used in the same way as the test taper?[/quote]

That’s definetly a possibility, yet I have never tried it. You would want to use a SERM near the end, and keep testosterone on hand if you found it wasn’t working.

I have successfully used a combo of test and masteron in the past.

So yes obviously the test taper is for use in cycles were heavier compounds were used. The use of primo by itself, may not neccessitate a test taper.

Anybody have any experience in this area???

110

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
gettinbigger wrote:

In that same light, could a drug like primobolan depot be used to taper off, maybe with even more success than with test since it is supposed to be less supressive of your natural test production? This was what I theorised - that primo could offer anabolic support while someone comes off test (which has many facets to its action, like mood enhancement etc). Basically, you have enought to worry about coming off test without having to concern yourself with loss of muscle mass, and the primo should guard against this nicely. I made an abortive attempt at this kind of thing, however I was in the middle of exams, and didn’t need the stress of coming off, so I caved in and went back on, lol!

One more question, Bill Roberts theorized that a low dose of oral’s (ie. dbol) could be used 1st thing in the morning with very little suppression to the HPTA. Could this method be used in the same way as the test taper?

I believe this is called a ‘dbol bridge’ and it was tried by a member of this site called Mike Katz who doesn’t post much here at the moment (shame, he’s a good guy). Anyway, he didn’t like it much from a recovery point of view as I recall…[/quote]

Yes that is the trouble with using someting to ‘anabolic’ or rather somthing that doesn’t have a lot of activety at the AR- You may not get enough androgenic support, while tapering, hence the loss of libido e.t.c. With test, you are replacing 100% of every facet you need while slowly recovery your own natural test production…

111

[quote]gettinbigger wrote:
Anthony Roberts wrote:
The tapering theory is like saying if there’s a hole in a Dam, and plugging it with your finger prevents half the water from getting out, plugging the dam with your finger after all the water is gone, will allow half of it to come back.

Acording to conventional wisdom, the reason your test returns useing a conventional PCT (or even a test taper) would be that your body’s natural responce to low(or non-exsistant) test levels is to begin or increase its own production. So I fail to see how your body’s responce to a test level of zero and an extremely low level of testosterone (as would be present in a test taper) would be any different. I think there is most likely a fine line there but once your test drops below a certain point your body should (in a healthy subject) begin its own production to bring it self up to a normal level.

The only problem as I see it is the substances used for the taper and prior to it. I have seen several studies that prove that even a single shot of 100mg of Deca is enough to suppress endrogeness test production by almost 100%. Hence the reason for the “6-week holding pattern” P-22 suggests. But as far as I can tell a low dosage of test should not be 100% suppressive and if there isn’t 100% suppression, shouldn’t your natural test production return at a rate roughly the inverse of the supression? For example, if you where theoretically 75% suppressed then would not your body slowly begin taking up the slack and producing 25% of its own?[/quote]

exactly! you get the picture!

112

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
P22’s old PCT taper included the staunch advacocy of NO ANTI-E’s, and an admission that it takes longer than traditional PCTs:

Prisoner#22 wrote:
So this pct may take longer than some people’s idea of pct using nolva or clomid, hcg e.t.c, but in the end and throughout the above advantages will be quite apparrent.

Now his PCT includes the staunch advocacy of using them…then he says this is just “as he said before”:

Prisoner#22 wrote:
as I said before, the hpta is not fully suppressed when using testosterone in weekly doses below 100 mg of Enathate per week, if used concurrently with an anti E

I forget…what exactly are we tapering here?

Oh, thats right…Masteron and Testosterone. Now I remember:

Prisoner#22 wrote:
Actually if you have read everything I have said on tapering, my favorite taper is a 50/50 combo of masteron and testosteron. Proviron would work pretty much the same way.

Wait…now I’m confused:

Prisoner#22 wrote:
When using gear that isn’t testosterone, such as Deca or EQ, you have wait untill levels of such gear are so low that they won’t interfere with recovery at all.

Are we tapering with just test? Because you said that if people had read EVERYTHING you wrote on the subject, it’s clear that your favorite taper is with masteron and test. Now you’re saying you need to let all other drugs besides the test clear out…

First you don’t need an anti-estrogen, now you do, first you taper with test and masteron, now you need to let all non-test drugs clear out…[/quote]

well… isn’t masteron not an anti E?

A taper should be testosterone along with any substance that keeps estrogen at non suppressive levels. Whether you choose AI’s, Serms, or masteron, aromasin, or proviron (which is impracticle) It will work.

113

[quote]RoidEnthusiast wrote:
Just to keep a couple things in perspective here for those saying that such a low dose shouldn’t interfere with HPTA recovery… A 100mg shot of Deca-Durabolin delivers 65mg of nandrolone, the rest of the weight is the ester. A 100mg shot of T-propionate delivers 83mg of testosterone. The average man with a normally funtionion endocrine system produces 4-7mg of testosterone a day- 28-49mg per week. A 50mg shot of propionate (about 42mg test) suddenly doesn’t look so small when you start to realize how very little your body actually produces with a normal, healthy HPTA.

Trying to restore your testosterone production from nil while still introducing more T than the average male produces in a week isn’t going to happen until you stop shooting up, period. Tapering isn’t about transistioning back to a normally functioning endocrine system quickly, and discontinuing AAS- it’s a way to involve youself in AAS use for 6 more weeks to extend the maximum retention of on-cycle gains.

Tapering is not going to be for everybody. Some people prefer to use steroids as an occasional plateau busting tool… not as an artificial crutch that will result in eternal dependance to maintain genetically unrealistic gains. [/quote]

Hmmm somewhere along here you lost your research base. If you read the research it clearly tells us what amount of test E per week causes how much gonadotropin suppression.

The research supports my findings.

Also keep in mind we combine the taper of course with the fact we have kept E under control for the entire cycle, so Suppression from E should also not occur.

114

[quote]gettinbigger wrote:
RoidEnthusiast wrote:
Just to keep a couple things in perspective here for those saying that such a low dose shouldn’t interfere with HPTA recovery… A 100mg shot of Deca-Durabolin delivers 69mg of nandrolone, the rest of the weight is the ester. A 100mg shot of T-propionate delivers 83mg of testosterone. The average man with a normally funtionion endocrine system produces 4-7mg of testosterone a day- 28-49mg per week. A 50mg shot of propionate (about 42mg test) suddenly doesn’t look so small when you start to realize how very little your body actually produces with a normal, healthy HPTA.

Thats a really interesting point. But wouldn’t this number be slightly less depending on injection site, amount lost in syringe and at injection site, speed of which it enters the body, etc. There have to be numerous factors that influence the actual amount of the drug that enters your system and I would be surprised if it was anywhere close to 100% of what was injected.[/quote]

yes, keep in mind we are using the Testosterone Enanthate ester, the same as used in all the studies. To guesstimate your looking at about 60% testosterone to 40% ester weight, and as I said earlier, the tests have been done that confirms which doses are non suppressive and which are suppressive to the hpta. Studdies also show suppression can be further prevented by keeping E in check.

So, yes, infact we can inject low enough doses of testosterone to make this taper practicle, and to match what the human body’s daily production is.

115

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:

lol! back for another round are you?

This is an obvious deduction. The study stated clomephenes mechanism of action that prevented gonadotropin suppression was via blockage of the estrogen receptor that control the negative feed back loop.

Knowing what we know about the physiology of the negative feed back system, we know that keeping E low will attain a simmilar result to out right blockage of E at the receptor.

.[/quote]

You do know that Clomid increases estrogen levels, correct?

116

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
yes, keep in mind we are using the Testosterone Enanthate ester, the same as used in all the studies. To guesstimate your looking at about 60% testosterone to 40% ester weight, and as I said earlier, the tests have been done that confirms which doses are non suppressive and which are suppressive to the hpta. Studdies also show suppression can be further prevented by keeping E in check.

So, yes, infact we can inject low enough doses of testosterone to make this taper practicle, and to match what the human body’s daily production is.[/quote]

There was a thread a while back in which test prop was used successfully for the taper. Actually before this thread I thought all you could use was test prop. Does it matter which is used? Have you had any more success with one vs. the other?

118

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
However since the primo doesn’t aromatise, and the masteron is an anti-e, you would get a sub-homeostatic level of E, which might not be a good thing…

[/quote]

You know that nothing in the DHT family has the ability to aromatize, right? So I mean, you can use almost any of them, on that theory…

120

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
jjay wrote:
Alright your test is at a normal range at 100 mg but it’s from injecting ? Your natural production is still down 50% at least ? Then the taper is over and you wait 4-6 weeks and start again. After a while can that cause permenant damage to your natural production ?

As you taper the exogenous test, your endogenous production increases to make up for any defincit in your body’s needs.

There is absolutely no damage done whatsoever, as the only drugs used is testosterone, and an anti E.[/quote]

I believe you are qualified to answer this question .

Do you believe that shooting bodybuilding doses of test 9 months ( if my math is right ) out of the year . Year after year is not going to damage your body in any serious way ? Assuming all the precautions ?