I can see how this would be a way to make the Post cycle crash not as bad, but would this only be because it wouldn’t make the receptor down regulation as bad. Rather than actually having a better affect on the whole process of the hpta? than say a normal PCT treatment.
When you come off a cycle, your basically standing on the side of a road trying to kick start your scrotbag as fast as you can, because you’ve got a van full of rape fags coming to get you called “The Catabolic-Mobile”. When it gets you, they are gonna pull you in and have a real party with you and your gains. Sure tapering little amounts will help you keep ahead of that van a bit, but those chemicals are what’s making it so damn hard to kick start your scrot again in the first place. Whether tapering has worked anecdotally or not, one thing you can’t deny is it makes for a much longer PCT.
[quote]RoidEnthusiast wrote:
When you come off a cycle, your basically standing on the side of a road trying to kick start your scrotbag as fast as you can, because you’ve got a van full of rape fags coming to get you called “The Catabolic-Mobile”. When it gets you, they are gonna pull you in and have a real party with you and your gains. Sure tapering little amounts will help you keep ahead of that van a bit, but those chemicals are what’s making it so damn hard to kick start your scrot again in the first place. Whether tapering has worked anecdotally or not, one thing you can’t deny is it makes for a much longer PCT. [/quote]
wow! Geez, that was intellegently put! I suggest you do some reading and find out exactly what these ‘chemicals’ are, along with an explaination of your reasoning physiologically speaking, and once you have everything figured out get back to us with a response we can all understand!
[quote]2RIIPPED wrote:
I can see how this would be a way to make the Post cycle crash not as bad, but would this only be because it wouldn’t make the receptor down regulation as bad. Rather than actually having a better affect on the whole process of the hpta? than say a normal PCT treatment. [/quote]
Did you actually read the article… Yes? no?.. well I suggest you re read it a few more times as everything is explained.
yeah I did read it a few times, it was more of a shout out to anyone who advocates for this treatment. Because most people will state that they did feel better coming off because of the effects of what I stated. I don’t doubt this treatment at all. I’m just stating that the test rat won’t know for sure if the HPTA is jump started because of how it made them feel compared to their other cycles. Sorry my post may have caused confusion.
And I only stated this because their aren’t enough scientific tests proving your point. Its just logical reasoning. If you could give more test results even just your blood tests. Then I wouldn’t have needed to say that. I am not saying this isn’t a good treatment I just want to help make this thread become more than just preaching from your end and rather an informative thread that covers it all.
Lol, not trying antagonize you further but…
As far as the chemicals, take your pick. Though there is obviously a range from most to least suppressive, anything from Dianabol to Anavar is going to eventually shut you down. Yes Anavar- take it long enough and it will eventually supress your HPTA. Assuming you choose something like proviron or Anavar which are both about as HPTA “friendly” as a steroid gets, you are still continuing to feed something into your system that will work against getting your own scrotbag into normal testosterone production as fast as possible. Plain and simple, it elongates the PCT. The benefit you may be argueing is that you don’t have to experience that brutal physical and psychological crash of going from over a gram a week to cold turkey the next. No one should be taking that crash anyway, long esters self taper and people should be counting those last weeks after their last shot as part of their cycle. I know people here have clearly expressed their personal success with the taper method you are talking about. I think in most part it is due to having something to counterbalance the waning cortisol response your body built up during the course of a long cycle. I think the short cycles suggested by Rea in his books on AAS use are best anyway, allow for speedy PCT, and pretty much eliminate the need for this tapering.
[quote]RoidEnthusiast wrote:
Lol, not trying antagonize you further but…
As far as the chemicals, take your pick. Though there is obviously a range from most to least suppressive, anything from Dianabol to Anavar is going to eventually shut you down. Yes Anavar- take it long enough and it will eventually supress your HPTA. Assuming you choose something like proviron or Anavar which are both about as HPTA “friendly” as a steroid gets, you are still continuing to feed something into your system that will work against getting your own scrotbag into normal testosterone production as fast as possible. Plain and simple, it elongates the PCT. The benefit you may be argueing is that you don’t have to experience that brutal physical and psychological crash of going from over a gram a week to cold turkey the next. No one should be taking that crash anyway, long esters self taper and people should be counting those last weeks after their last shot as part of their cycle. I know people here have clearly expressed their personal success with the taper method you are talking about. I think in most part it is due to having something to counterbalance the waning cortisol response your body built up during the course of a long cycle. I think the short cycles suggested by Rea in his books on AAS use are best anyway, allow for speedy PCT, and pretty much eliminate the need for this tapering. [/quote]
Counterbalancing cortisol is not the reson for a taper. The taper is there to reaclimatise the body to natural levels of testosterone, and lower yourself back into the negative feedback loop of the hpta. By Tapering the anti E at the same time you avoid estrogen rebound as well. I havn’t seen any evidence that corisol levels rise, and I have no idea why you would think that.
The problem with short cycles is that the body is always in a state of flux. Homeostasis is heard to achieve when hormones are either up or down. This results in more side effects. Granted yes using short courses of AAS that has less activity at the AR may be productive to the trainer who is still ‘seminatural’ however, if you are in anyway a competitive bodybuilder or someone who’s goal is moderate muscle gain, you aren’t going to achieve this on short cycles. The bulk of gains on a steroid cycle don’t really begin untill week 3, that would be around the time you would be going off on a short cycle.
In addition to this, you really nead about six weeks to 3 months between cycles to reap increases in muscle mass. This is do to adaptation to the higher levels of AAS by the body, wether it be through increase shbg or down regulation of the AR.
Short cycle’s were all the craze for about a year or so on this board, but most have discovered the above info just stated and since have changed their minds.
As for PCT protocols, I have to disagree with you, as long acting esters are not self tapering. There is no steady declining amount of AAS on a daily basis. Most AAS injections peak after 2 days and quit rapidly begin to trail off after that.
I find anyways that a stepped approach is a better method anyway, by tapering in such a manner you don’t move to the next step untill your body is ready. that way you control your pct, instead of the protocol controling you.
I have factored every possible avenue into this.
Alot of people tend to find that this protocol intimidating because of the fact you are injecting for so long after the cycle, however you have to take into accout just how little you are using, and also the fact that your body will consider itself completely off during this time period.
Just try it though, and you will never even think of doing any other pct approach again - I guarentee!
[quote]2RIIPPED wrote:
And I only stated this because their aren’t enough scientific tests proving your point. Its just logical reasoning. If you could give more test results even just your blood tests. Then I wouldn’t have needed to say that. I am not saying this isn’t a good treatment I just want to help make this thread become more than just preaching from your end and rather an informative thread that covers it all.[/quote]
Lol! I am getting tired of going over the same stuff over and over again. If you have a problem with the protocol and can find some thing that either doesn’t fit - physiologically, or pharmacologically speaking, then pipe up. I have proven my theory as far as it’ll go on my end, now it is up to you all to decide whether you want to try it or not.
So far the testimonials have all been very positive, with all saying they wouldn’t go back to the ‘popular’ pct protocols circulation around the boards.
this is not rocket science, it’s all about TEST levels! the other metabolites have to be gone BEFORE you start the taper. it only effects TEST levels.
Does this make it longer before you can go back on ?
[quote]jjay wrote:
Does this make it longer before you can go back on ?[/quote]
No, as long as your blood T is within normal physiological range you can count this period as being ‘off’ as the body will adapt itself back to normal levels during this time.
The studies found 100mg/week to be slightly above normal, but every dose below 100mg/ week was found to be within normal range.
You can count the six weeks of the taper as being ‘off’ and then any time after you are finished your taper, you could go back on, however I recomend you wait as long as possible - such as 4-6 weeks before starting a new cycle, and try to hold on to as much of your gains naturally as possible. - If you are like me who is about 30 or 40 lbs of muscle above natural, then it will be tougher to hold onto all your size naturally - even with your test levels in the ‘high normal’ range.
I recommend lots of food and whatever not-AAS supplements that will help, along with a consistent training program that focuses on injury prevention as you don’t want to hurt yourself before hitting up a new cycle :). With that in mind keep your reps higher and the weights a bit ligher - drop down by 20-30% of what you were doing on AAS, and just try to rep out more. This will prevent injuries.
If you are closer to your natural ‘peak’ you should expect less size loss.
The longer you wait before hitting the next cycle, staying in prime shape, the better your gains will be (and by that I mean above your previous best levels).
[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
(and I deduct you could use any other anti E as the suppresion was shown to be caused by estrogen).
[/quote]
That’s a hell of a deduction, since the anti-e that the study actually used is anti-estrogenic (an estrogen antagonist) directly at the hypothalamus/pituitary, and doesn’t actually reduce estrogen levels in the body. From that, you have deduced that anything which reduces estrogen will work. How would an aromatase inhibitor (another type of anti estrogen) be in any way imaginable, anything similar to the drug used in that study (Clomid, a SERM, not an AI)?
I’m finding these leaps to be totally unfounded here…
Alright your test is at a normal range at 100 mg but it’s from injecting ? Your natural production is still down 50% at least ? Then the taper is over and you wait 4-6 weeks and start again. After a while can that cause permenant damage to your natural production ?
P-22,
Would you recommend a test taper for any cycle? Or is it most applicable to longer cycles with very suppressive drugs?
For instance it has been theorized that Primobolan Depot isn’t totally suppressive to the HPTA (except at high dosages). So if someone did a mild (400-600mg/wk) cycle of primo for say 8 weeks wouldn’t it be better to just use the natural taper of the enanthate ester coupled with some clomid for a few weeks post cycle rather than injecting test which is potentially more supressive of your natural test than the primobolan would be? In that same light, could a drug like primobolan depot be used to taper off, maybe with even more success than with test since it is supposed to be less supressive of your natural test production?
One more question, Bill Roberts theorized that a low dose of oral’s (ie. dbol) could be used 1st thing in the morning with very little suppression to the HPTA. Could this method be used in the same way as the test taper?
The tapering theory is like saying if there’s a hole in a Dam, and plugging it with your finger prevents half the water from getting out, plugging the dam with your finger after all the water is gone, will allow half of it to come back.
[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
The tapering theory is like saying if there’s a hole in a Dam, and plugging it with your finger prevents half the water from getting out, plugging the dam with your finger after all the water is gone, will allow half of it to come back.[/quote]
My god, that is an awesome analogy… where did you get your literature degree, I want to send my children there???
[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
The tapering theory is like saying if there’s a hole in a Dam, and plugging it with your finger prevents half the water from getting out, plugging the dam with your finger after all the water is gone, will allow half of it to come back.[/quote]
Actually on second thought, this proves P22’s theory correct.
Since most dams are there to stop a naturally flowing river(our natural test level) if you were to let half the water out through a hole, and then plug the hole… it would fill up once again once the river started flowing.
Thanks AR! Dynomite!!
[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
The tapering theory is like saying if there’s a hole in a Dam, and plugging it with your finger prevents half the water from getting out, plugging the dam with your finger after all the water is gone, will allow half of it to come back.[/quote]
Acording to conventional wisdom, the reason your test returns useing a conventional PCT (or even a test taper) would be that your body’s natural responce to low(or non-exsistant) test levels is to begin or increase its own production. So I fail to see how your body’s responce to a test level of zero and an extremely low level of testosterone (as would be present in a test taper) would be any different. I think there is most likely a fine line there but once your test drops below a certain point your body should (in a healthy subject) begin its own production to bring it self up to a normal level.
The only problem as I see it is the substances used for the taper and prior to it. I have seen several studies that prove that even a single shot of 100mg of Deca is enough to suppress endrogeness test production by almost 100%. Hence the reason for the “6-week holding pattern” P-22 suggests. But as far as I can tell a low dosage of test should not be 100% suppressive and if there isn’t 100% suppression, shouldn’t your natural test production return at a rate roughly the inverse of the supression? For example, if you where theoretically 75% suppressed then would not your body slowly begin taking up the slack and producing 25% of its own?