P-22 Test Tapering Thread

Androgenic drugs have a mechanism in and of themselves that is suppressive, as shown in (Winters, et al. 1979). The study also showed in the doses they used, that concurent use of clomephene citrate was able to nullify this suppression, as well in addition to of course testosterone, which aromatises to E causing suppression.

It is just simply my argument that based on the evidence, that you can use steroids of low androgenic rating along with clomephene citrate, midcycle as a way to increase FSH/LH secretion and untimately increase testicular size via metabolic increases to the testes. This of course is an alternative to using HCG, and you all know my opinion of that.

As for the other arguments let me remind all once again that the studies I listed did infact show no hpta suppression while using 100mg/week of test E, in conjunction with clomid use!!!

now I do and always have included the use of an antiE in the protocol to keep estrogen levels in the normal physiological range, to minimize rebound post cycle, and I have talked about tapering it down as you reach the 50mg/ week mark so that you are completely off it at the 25mg/ week mark of test E, which research shows completely no suppression of the FSH/LH.

Now I have no clue where Anthony gets his logic from but I bet it is due to the fact that he as absolutely no formal training in physiology or pharmacology.

If recovery of the hpta is all about regaining natural homeostasis, then how does adding a whole wack of unnatural drugs achieve this? The truth is it doesn’t do it any sooner or at all.

You have to clear out all metabolites of non testosterone drugs from your body before you can even hope to obtain HOMEOSTASIS (anthony, you should look up this word in the physiology text that you never read)

That is what the waiting period is for. It doesn’t matter what pct drugs you use if there is still artificial metabolites in your body you cannot even begin to recover your natural homeostasis - no matter what Anthony says, this is just a fact, there is no getting around this.

His method would be to use hcg during this time period which I say would make you feel better, but just royally fuck up your hpta even more.

My method allows you to feel good during this peroid, but instead of screwing things up, actually helps because as the weeks go by your body is able to adapt back to a lower amount of testosterone in the body.

Once you begin the taper, provided There are no other hormones left in your body besides testosterone that could suppress your hpta, there is proven to be nothing holding the body back from producing FSH/LH at 100mg of test E per week while using 100mg and concurently as long as E is kept in check and obviously the lower you go the less suppresion, so you all get my point I am sure.

The argument is the fact AR seems to thing that steroid users are hypogonadic. I dissagree. The bottom line is if you were eugonadic before suppression with endogenous AAS then you will be eugonadic following, provided you don’t fuck up your system by adding a whole wack of other pct drugs such as hcg, lupron, e.t.c.

If woman can be on birth control for years, which, essentially does the same thing as what steroids do to men, and then have kids, following, then why are men considered 'hypogonadic’while on steroids?

Hypogonadism is a disease process where the testes is damaged and is incapable of producing normal amounts of sperm and testosterone.

Now if this is what occurred during suppression, then the effects would be permament, as disease causes scaring and fibrosis, and no drug would reverse this.

In normal Males who have have low testosterone/ sperm production, not attributable to any form of AAS use, when HCG is administered and normal amounts of sperm and testosterone is produced by the testes, then the testes is deemed to be eugonadic, and the problem is most likely elsewhere such as the pituitary or the hypothalmus.

So if you can respond to hcg, there is no reason why you can’t respond to your own LH secretion, and therefore there is no need for hcg use, as it will be more suppressive and harmfull to a eugonadic male then good.

Now since studies have shown that testosterone administration in low doses to have absolutely no harmful side effects, and when given in sub physiological levels so that total T is within physiological normal range, the body as a whole will view itself as OFF CYCLE. At this point since there is evidence that shows no harm to the body, it does not matter how long you taper for. You are technically off AAS. So the Argument of quiting cold turkey so full recovery can occur sooner, is irrelevant. By using the argument’s method, you quit cold turkey, then rely on drugs to kick-start the natural testosterone production back into gear. Meanwhile there is a test crash, and libido is lost. (hormone crashes are unhealthy by the way - so score a point for tapering here)Now using the HCG recovery protocols: the user will have been in a ‘crashed’ state for quite some time{ as he will have to have waited untill all drugs had cleared before he could even have begun recovery), and then will have to have waited even further until the hpta was somehow restored. Using HCG during this time period as a bandaid approach may relieve the symptoms of a test crash, but would ultimately cause lower testosterone levels -unaided by any drugs for quit some time to come.

By using the waiting period, along with the test taper, you avoid all these problems and smoothly come off the test without ever having to wory about your testosterone levels falling below natural physiological norms.

So if you want to talk about retention of gains and safety and efficacy -The user who tapers will always be either above his normal level or at his level of test production. He dosen’t have to slow down in the gym. He doesn’t have to pick up a bottle of viagra, and he won’t suffer from withdrawal symptoms that include mood disorders, dramatic weight loss, fat gain, excessive acne, not to mention that loss of libido, can be a real relationship killer.

whereas the user of hcg will need to inject quite frequently to match the taper approach, and adding more drugs does little to achieve natural homeostasis - you are just rather shifting dependancy from one drug to another.

Now AR can disagree all he likes, and nit-pick about facks here or there, however he can’t alter human physiology to suit his argument. This method works, and more and more members are going to attest (pardon the pun:)) to this as time goes by.

P22,

Do you recommend clomephene citrate half way through the cycle for your taper method? Or is using it optional?

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Jun;86(6):2600-6

i think this may support your arguement somewhat. i entered arimidex, men in pubmed, also got these:

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Jan;86(1):53-8

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2000 Sep;85(9):3027-35

[quote]HouseOfAtlas wrote:
P22,

Do you recommend clomephene citrate half way through the cycle for your taper method? Or is using it optional?[/quote]

Actually as I have said before I am more in favor of just keeping estrogen inside the natural normal physiological range as possible by using an aromatase inhibitor through out the entire cycle.

With this said though it wouldn’t hurt to add the clomephene in as the research definitely points toward it in a favorable light, and definitely for those as I have said before who worry about testicular atrophy, it is a huge alternative.

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
Androgenic drugs have a mechanism in and of themselves that is suppressive, as shown in (Winters, et al. 1979). The study also showed in the doses they used, that concurent use of clomephene citrate was able to nullify this suppression, as well in addition to of course testosterone, which aromatises to E causing suppression.
[/quote]

Ok. Lets apply some steroids of “low androgenic rating” to your idea. You say that this protocol works with Testosterone. Ok
so lets see if a “low androgenic rating” is what makes it valid.

Can this protocol be used with Deca? Deca is a mere 37% as androgenic as testosterone Enanthate, and shuts you down fully in 1/5th to 1/6th the time.

Still think the androgenic rating is relevant? Deca has one of the lowest androgenic ratings out of every steroid in the world, and is possibly the most suppressive. SO therefore it is not the androgenic rating that is the important factor here
you’re simply wrong about that. And it’s not the “anabolic/androgenic ratio” either, because the same ratio as testosterone has is found in Trenbolone (1:1) and that is also more suppressive.

Proviron is a better choice than test here, for PCT, as it’s far less suppressive than Test, and provides full androgen replacement. Without any degree of inhibition in moderate doses.

Also, you have not justified the leap from "50mgs of Test Lowers LH/FSH to half to “surely it will allow it to be raised to 50%”.

There’s nothing in the literature that supports this, and even if it did, and now you’re reccomending an AI, a Serm, etc, etc, etc


Why not include aromasin? And as for clomid, it’s inferior on a Mg for MG basis to Nolvadex, and also inhibits the LH response to LHRH, when compared to Nolvadex. In addition, Nolvadex prevents the desensitizing effect you’re so worried about with the use of HCG.

Why bother with the tapering? WHy not start total recovery quickly, and do it now instead of later? Why bother staying on the Test? WHy not switch to Proviron, which can be used at a higher daily does, and provides

Assuming 100% of what you’ve said is correct, you’ve still provided a vastly inferior PCT to most of the ones we see on the 'net, on a daily basis.

I think you would be well served to reread mine. It’s supported by 37 references, each step of the way, and makes no leaps.

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
Actually as I have said before I am more in favor of just keeping estrogen inside the natural normal physiological range as possible by using an aromatase inhibitor through out the entire cycle.

With this said though it wouldn’t hurt to add the clomephene in as the research definitely points toward it in a favorable light, and definitely for those as I have said before who worry about testicular atrophy, it is a huge alternative.[/quote]

That is what I figured. I’ll probably just stick with the AI. Personally, testicular atrophy wouldn’t be a bad thing when doing certain exercises. LOL!

Thanks again!

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
Androgenic drugs have a mechanism in and of themselves that is suppressive, as shown in (Winters, et al. 1979). The study also showed in the doses they used, that concurent use of clomephene citrate was able to nullify this suppression, as well in addition to of course testosterone, which aromatises to E causing suppression.

Ok. Lets apply some steroids of “low androgenic rating” to your idea. You say that this protocol works with Testosterone. Ok
so lets see if a “low androgenic rating” is what makes it valid.

Can this protocol be used with Deca? Deca is a mere 37% as androgenic as testosterone Enanthate, and shuts you down fully in 1/5th to 1/6th the time.

Still think the androgenic rating is relevant? Deca has one of the lowest androgenic ratings out of every steroid in the world, and is possibly the most suppressive. SO therefore it is not the androgenic rating that is the important factor here
you’re simply wrong about that. And it’s not the “anabolic/androgenic ratio” either, because the same ratio as testosterone has is found in Trenbolone (1:1) and that is also more suppressive.

Proviron is a better choice than test here, for PCT, as it’s far less suppressive than Test, and provides full androgen replacement. Without any degree of inhibition in moderate doses.

Also, you have not justified the leap from "50mgs of Test Lowers LH/FSH to half to “surely it will allow it to be raised to 50%”.

There’s nothing in the literature that supports this, and even if it did, and now you’re reccomending an AI, a Serm, etc, etc, etc


Why not include aromasin? And as for clomid, it’s inferior on a Mg for MG basis to Nolvadex, and also inhibits the LH response to LHRH, when compared to Nolvadex. In addition, Nolvadex prevents the desensitizing effect you’re so worried about with the use of HCG.

Why bother with the tapering? WHy not start total recovery quickly, and do it now instead of later? Why bother staying on the Test? WHy not switch to Proviron, which can be used at a higher daily does, and provides

Assuming 100% of what you’ve said is correct, you’ve still provided a vastly inferior PCT to most of the ones we see on the 'net, on a daily basis.

I think you would be well served to reread mine. It’s supported by 37 references, each step of the way, and makes no leaps.[/quote]

You are totally off track here. You seem to be stuck on this ‘low androgenic’ thing just because I mentioned it as a way during mid cycle to stave off testicular shrinkage for those who actually care (me being not one of them) and this of course was in conjunction with clomid therapy. That’s directly in the study, if you have issues with the study say so, but don’t try an change the subject.

Everyone who has read the work, knows darn well why we use testosterone to taper. I guess you skiped over the words ‘natural’ and ‘homeostasis’ somewhere along the way. I am not advocating anyother taper here besides using testosterone along with an antiE thats all. I works, as others have tried it and experienced the same results I have. You don’t believe me, try it. At least I tried the protocol myself before I advocated it to others unlike you and your pct.

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
You are totally off track here. You seem to be stuck on this ‘low androgenic’ thing just because I mentioned it as a way during mid cycle to stave off testicular shrinkage for those who actually care (me being not one of them) and this of course was in conjunction with clomid therapy
[/quote]

SO what you’re saying is that testosterone is “low androgenic”?

I mean
you’re saying you can stave off testicular shrinkage mid cycle with low androgenic compounds and Clomid? And the study uses testosterone.

SO you are saying testosterone is, therefore, a low androgenic drug?

Also, how does the androgenic or anabolic properties of a drug relate to it’s suppressiveness? I’ve still not gotten an answer on that yet, but I’ve named a low androgenic drug (Deca) which is very suppressive, and can name a high androgenic one (Halotestin) which isn’t highly suppressive.

I can name two with the same ratio of androgenic:androgenic scores, yet which are totally different in how much they suppress you (Testosterone and Trenbolone both have a 1:1 ratio, yet tren is far more suppressive).

Given these facts, I can’t see the relevance of either the androgenic or anabolic properties viz a viz suppression (which you alternately claim to be a factor).

I’m now asking you directly to explain your comments, which I quoted a page ago, and you haven’t yet addressed.

Here’s my question:

How can you claim that androgenic or anabolic properties relate to the suppressive nature of individual AAS.

I’ve provided several examples of why they don’t, and am waiting to see how you can claim they do.

(Incidentally: Clomid, while on a cycle, to maintain testicular volume was first proposed on this site many years ago, in an article by Bruce Kneller)

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
You are totally off track here. You seem to be stuck on this ‘low androgenic’ thing just because I mentioned it as a way during mid cycle to stave off testicular shrinkage for those who actually care (me being not one of them) and this of course was in conjunction with clomid therapy


SO what you’re saying is that testosterone is “low androgenic”?

I mean
you’re saying you can stave off testicular shrinkage mid cycle with low androgenic compounds and Clomid? And the study uses testosterone.

SO you are saying testosterone is, therefore, a low androgenic drug?

Also, how does the androgenic or anabolic properties of a drug relate to it’s suppressiveness? I’ve still not gotten an answer on that yet, but I’ve named a low androgenic drug (Deca) which is very suppressive, and can name a high androgenic one (Halotestin) which isn’t highly suppressive.

I can name two with the same ratio of androgenic:androgenic scores, yet which are totally different in how much they suppress you (Testosterone and Trenbolone both have a 1:1 ratio, yet tren is far more suppressive).

Given these facts, I can’t see the relevance of either the androgenic or anabolic properties viz a viz suppression (which you alternately claim to be a factor).

I’m now asking you directly to explain your comments, which I quoted a page ago, and you haven’t yet addressed.

Here’s my question:

How can you claim that androgenic or anabolic properties relate to the suppressive nature of individual AAS.

I’ve provided several examples of why they don’t, and am waiting to see how you can claim they do.

(Incidentally: Clomid, while on a cycle, to maintain testicular volume was first proposed on this site many years ago, in an article by Bruce Kneller)
[/quote]

I’m not going to get into these topics any furthur as I see no point to the debate here, I frankly just interpreted the findings of the research cited, and it fits nicely into what myself and others have experienced while on cycle.
As for Bruce Kneller, I understand he is an RNBN as well! Well great minds think alike eh! anyways I believe that piece of info was also taken from the research sited as well- (you’ll find it all neatly referenced in the body of the article I wrote).

The bottom line is I’m not going to debate the researh. If you want to tell us why some steroids are more suppressive than others to the hpta, go nuts (pardon the pun again:)), I am just passing on data from research, and could care less about the other hormones when tapering off. I use testosterone because that is what the body produces. The antiE is used just to prevent estrogen from causing suppression.

If our bodies produced trenbolone, then hell this would be a trenbolone taper protocol.

It’s all about obtaining natural homeostasis.

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
The bottom line is I’m not going to debate the research. [/quote]

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
I’m not going to get into these topics any furthr as I see no point to the debate here[/quote]

I think everyone following this thread has the answer they were looking for.

Thanks.

Hey Anthony , Good work ! Don’t sweat 22 trying to pull rank on you cuz he is a nurse ! What are your opinions on the pro-hormones out now and the safest, most effective way to use them ?

[quote]jjay wrote:
Hey Anthony , Good work ! Don’t sweat 22 trying to pull rank on you cuz he is a nurse ! What are your opinions on the pro-hormones out now and the safest, most effective way to use them ?[/quote]

That damn Tourettes is kicking in again, huh?

If it wasn’t for threads like this I don’t think I would ever visit this site (well, except to watch grown men post 250 times a day on beginner’s “Physique and Performance” photos). It’s a shame that discussions like this are few and far between on a website where they should be the norm.

[quote]jjay wrote:
Hey Anthony , Good work ! Don’t sweat 22 trying to pull rank on you cuz he is a nurse ! What are your opinions on the pro-hormones out now and the safest, most effective way to use them ?[/quote]

Jesus H Christ, who wants to bet this kid is 14-16. First your degrade P22 for being a nurse then you try to ask prohormone questions in a thread about tapering.

GO back to the curl machine.

[quote]keaster wrote:
jjay wrote:
Hey Anthony , Good work ! Don’t sweat 22 trying to pull rank on you cuz he is a nurse ! What are your opinions on the pro-hormones out now and the safest, most effective way to use them ?

Jesus H Christ, who wants to bet this kid is 14-16. First your degrade P22 for being a nurse then you try to ask prohormone questions in a thread about tapering.

GO back to the curl machine.[/quote]

So what If I asked about prohormones the thread is over . And who said you could talk ?

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
HouseOfAtlas wrote:
jjay wrote:
Hey Anthony , Good work ! Don’t sweat 22 trying to pull rank on you cuz he is a nurse ! What are your opinions on the pro-hormones out now and the safest, most effective way to use them ?

That damn Tourettes is kicking in again, huh?

HAHAHAHA![/quote]

How is that funny ?

[quote]jjay wrote:
keaster wrote:
jjay wrote:
Hey Anthony , Good work ! Don’t sweat 22 trying to pull rank on you cuz he is a nurse ! What are your opinions on the pro-hormones out now and the safest, most effective way to use them ?

So what If I asked about prohormones the thread is over . And who said you could talk ? [/quote]

Sorry oh mighty king of douchebagery.
I must inform his greastness that your question about prohormones should have been asked in a new thread or in AR’s locker room.

I know you have not graced this site with your divine presence long enough to know that being a dick to guys with light years more knowledge than you is not a good idea.

Here are some keys words to this site

AR= anthony roberts not eric roberts
PM- what I will get later from you, filled with threats
Tourettes-what you have
Respect-what you lack

Go back to bodybuilding.com- the site for tens of thousands of boys with 16 inch guns and under 8 percent body fat and I almost forgot- 250 pound bench presses.

[quote]keaster wrote:
jjay wrote:
keaster wrote:
jjay wrote:
Hey Anthony , Good work ! Don’t sweat 22 trying to pull rank on you cuz he is a nurse ! What are your opinions on the pro-hormones out now and the safest, most effective way to use them ?

So what If I asked about prohormones the thread is over . And who said you could talk ?

Sorry oh mighty king of douchebagery.
I must inform his greastness that your question about prohormones should have been asked in a new thread or in AR’s locker room.

I know you have not graced this site with your divine presence long enough to know that being a dick to guys with light years more knowledge than you is not a good idea.

Here are some keys words to this site

AR= anthony roberts not eric roberts
PM- what I will get later from you, filled with threats
Tourettes-what you have
Respect-what you lack

Go back to bodybuilding.com- the site for tens of thousands of boys with 16 inch guns and under 8 percent body fat and I almost forgot- 250 pound bench presses.
[/quote]

Light years more knowledge about what ? Shooting steroids . WOW !! And stop calling your arms guns .

[quote]jjay wrote:
keaster wrote:
jjay wrote:
keaster wrote:
jjay wrote:

WHy am I so gay
.[/quote]

Lets stop poluting P22’s thread with this, this is about his tapering protocol. And I didn’t expect you to get the guns part.