[quote]jjay wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
jjay wrote:
Not alot of men in your profession are there P .
Weak…
Well, It’s from the movie .[/quote]
Movie or no movie you’re showing disrespect, and frankly actually I don’t care.
[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
jjay wrote:
I thought Eric roberts shut the idea down . I would like to here the rebutal from p#22
Isn’t Eric Roberts the guy from “The Best of the Best”?
[/quote]
Yeah sorry I should have checked the name .
[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
jjay wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
jjay wrote:
Not alot of men in your profession are there P .
Weak…
Well, It’s from the movie .
Movie or no movie you’re showing disrespect, and frankly actually I don’t care. [/quote]
Well frankly actually I didn’t think that you would .
[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
So, if you want to regain testicular size during a cycle, simply plan in your cycle to remove the highly androgenic compounds from your body, switching to compounds that have a higher anabolic ratio and concurrently using clomid, and you will ultimately improve the testicular size.
[/quote]
What does the androgenic rating have to do with the suppressive nature of any given compound? Furthermore, what does the anabolic/androgenic ratio have to do with anything regarding suppression?
[quote]jjay wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
jjay wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
jjay wrote:
Not alot of men in your profession are there P .
Weak…
Well, It’s from the movie .
Movie or no movie you’re showing disrespect, and frankly actually I don’t care.
Well frankly actually I didn’t think that you would .[/quote]
Hey jjay dumbass,
Take your bullshit elsewhere…the man is trying to be helpful…We don’t have time for your bullshit, troll.
JW
[quote]JWpushheavy wrote:
jjay wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
jjay wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
jjay wrote:
Not alot of men in your profession are there P .
Weak…
Well, It’s from the movie .
Movie or no movie you’re showing disrespect, and frankly actually I don’t care.
Well frankly actually I didn’t think that you would .
Hey jjay dumbass,
Take your bullshit elsewhere…the man is trying to be helpful…We don’t have time for your bullshit, troll.
JW
[/quote]
Hey JW , Eat me ! Who are you the thread police ? Everyone’s a troll when your a fckng mutant !
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Anthony Roberts wrote:
What does the androgenic rating have to do with the suppressive nature of any given compound? Furthermore, what does the anabolic/androgenic ratio have to do with anything regarding suppression?
From a logial perspective, I can see what you are saying, BUT from an experience perspective, I can say with absolute certainty, that I can run up to 1000mg/wk of test, primo, masteron, anavar, turinabol and a couple of other compounds, for EXTENDED periods of time, with NO loss of testicle size or ejaculate volume and/or power.
HOWEVER, as soon as I add in even a small amount of 19-nor based compounds (nandrolone, trenbolone) then I find my nuts shrinking, and ejaculate vol/power tailing off.
Obviously testicle size doesn’t necessarily correlate directly with suppression, but there must be something going on beneath the surface no?[/quote]
How does that have anything to do with my question?
You’re talking about where a steroid is derived from, and he’s talking about the anabolic and androgenic scores and ratios. Those have nothing to do with each other.
In other words, what you’re saying has really nothing to do with P22’s claim, and neither supports nor attacks it.
[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
As you’re tapering down, by his admission, you are fully suppressed until you reach the 50mg/week dose, at which point you retain 50% of your LH and FSH. Which in this case is nothing. You’ve kept 50% of the HPTA you started with, as per the study. You’ve kept nothing, also. Remember, the 50mgs doesn’t RAISE your test to 50% of baseline…it LOWERS them by 50%. And you already have nothing in that bank.
[/quote]
You will have nothing until you drop to 50mgs and dip below your natural production level. Your body will kick it self back into gear even after being in “nuetral” for a while. It will meet the other 50%. Then if you choose you can drop to 25mgs and your body will detect and find the other “75%”…
I am in the process now and it took me 2 weeks at 50mgs before I felt my “boys” come back to life…
I went (Test E only) for 8 weeks with a frontload of 1,000, 750, and then every week 500 until week 9. At 9 I did 250, 10… 125ish, 11 and 12… 50. I am in my first week of 25mgs and still feel good. I plan to keep 25mgs for two weeks, before letting it go. We will see. I have nolva(in case of emergency) on hand and have been running an AI the entire time.
For all of those who like to bitch and argue, have at it… but I feel great right now compared to the nolva/clomid/HCG roller coster I experienced before. I am still fucking everyday, unlike with the cold turkey approach, and am not moody at all… which almost cost me my girlfriend after my last cycle.
I havent done alot of cycles, but I plan to do more and would not go back to the other way of thought. I dont give a shit about research or why or how, but I just want what works for me. It is a great mental boost this time to still be “on” and in the gym these last few weeks even after droping down to 50mgs.
We will see, if I maintain most of my gains I will consider this a sucess. But how I feel right now is already a major success. I will no longer have the fear of coming “off”.
I have to give thanks to P22 for droping the idea.
I say give it a try. If you dont like it keep your PCT supps on hand. If you like it, sell them to your buddy and buy more test.
sounds interesting. the answer to coming off test is more test. i like to build my way up on test and then slowly build my way down. but i stay at a certain mg for about two weeks at a time to make sure my body can maintain the changes and so i wont lose any size. ive done this from my first cycle and never tried anything else. i still always make sure i have my proviron, nolva, aromasin and adex on hand though.
[quote]Viking69 wrote:
Anthony Roberts wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
I am in the process now and it took me 2 weeks at 50mgs before I felt my “boys” come back to life…
It is a great mental boost this time to still be “on” and in the gym these last few weeks even after droping down to 50mgs.
I have to give thanks to P22 for droping the idea.
#1 Wait WTF are you talking about . He just posted this like 3 days ago.
#2 for Anthony Roberts . It does sound like it would help avoid a crash and if you were using anti estrogens to wouldn’t that be what’s responsible for boosting your test ?
[quote]jjay wrote:
#1 Wait WTF are you talking about . He just posted this like 3 days ago.
[/quote]
P22 has put forward this idea for a long time. In this post he is trying to back up his experiences with some clinical evidence. Jjay try using the ‘Search’ function once and a while before you post.
The test tapering idea was posted a long time ago. I have already tested the tapering protocol and posted my extremely positive results from it. You can find my thread here.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I’m just wondering why T-Nation hasn’t offered you a job.
I may not agree with you 100% but at least you present your case in a very intelligent and respectful manner - something that has been sorely missing for the last 6 months, or so.
[/quote]
Sorry to hijack, but Rainjack, I find it odd that you appreciate someone communicating in an intelligent and respectful way.
[quote]jjay wrote:
JWpushheavy wrote:
jjay wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
jjay wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
jjay wrote:
Not alot of men in your profession are there P .
Weak…
Well, It’s from the movie .
Movie or no movie you’re showing disrespect, and frankly actually I don’t care.
Well frankly actually I didn’t think that you would .
Hey jjay dumbass,
Take your bullshit elsewhere…the man is trying to be helpful…We don’t have time for your bullshit, troll.
JW
Hey JW , Eat me ! Who are you the thread police ? Everyone’s a troll when your a fckng mutant ! [/quote]
Grow the fuck up little boy.
[quote]jjay wrote:
#2 for Anthony Roberts . It does sound like it would help avoid a crash and if you were using anti estrogens to wouldn’t that be what’s responsible for boosting your test ?[/quote]
The sooner exogenous testosterone has cleared, the sooner you begin recovering your natural function. If you search for my PCT protocol, you’ll see that one member even suggested it as HRT to someone and it was used with great success for that purpose. Yeah, some AI’s will jumpstart you right away, but that’s what’s doing the work…tapering isn’t really helping, and is probably just delaying your recovery (and adding 4 weeks to your cycle, till you stop steroids).
Keep in mind, all of the studies he has referenced are on men who are STARTING with normal levels of hormones, and he’s saying that the data can be applied to someone who has absolutely 0 natural testosterone floating around, because they’ve shut down prouction by going on a cycle.
As I said, P22 is showing that if you start with normal test levels, you will lower them by half with a particular dose of TE. Then he’s saying “Clearly if you only lower test by 50% on this dose, it will also raise your levels to 50% during the taper” or something to that effect.
In short, he’s trying to say that doses which LOWER test in normal men will allow them to be RAISED in hypogonadal men.
So if you start with normal test levels, you lower them (and LH/FSH)by 50% on this minimal dose- but if you start with nothing, you raise those levels by 50%.
Ask yourself if that makes any sense.
(I had a member here get me some of them, because they’re about 3 decades old and not available on most medical research sites without having to pay).
Also…I’m still curious as to how the anabolic/androgenic ratio factors into this, as he said it does.
[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
jjay wrote:
In short, he’s trying to say that doses which LOWER test in normal men will allow them to be RAISED in hypogonadal men.
So if you start with normal test levels, you lower them (and LH/FSH)by 50% on this minimal dose- but if you start with nothing, you raise those levels by 50%.
Ask yourself if that makes any sense.
(I had a member here get me some of them, because they’re about 3 decades old and not available on most medical research sites without having to pay).
Also…I’m still curious as to how the anabolic/androgenic ratio factors into this, as he said it does.
[/quote]
I understand what you are saying.
There are two ways to look at that.
If you have no production because you are outwardly introducing +500% or so of the normal levels, and then taper to an outside influence of -50% or so of your natural level… the body will realise it is no longer recieving +500% of its normal levels after a few weeks and again start its own production or so the theory goes…
Ask yourself if that makes sense?
I wasnt going to post on my results for a month or so, but I went ahead anyway. So far, so good, because I have had no crash. We will see how my gains last.
Either you think it is a good enough idea to try it for yourself or you dont.
Anthony with all the shit you put in your system “for the sake of research” I thought for sure you might give it a whirl…
[quote]Viking69 wrote:
I understand what you are saying.
There are two ways to look at that.
If you have no production because you are outwardly introducing +500% or so of the normal levels, and then taper to an outside influence of -50% or so of your natural level… the body will realise it is no longer recieving +500% of its normal levels after a few weeks and again start its own production or so the theory goes…
Ask yourself if that makes sense?
I wasnt going to post on my results for a month or so, but I went ahead anyway. So far, so good, because I have had no crash. We will see how my gains last.
Either you think it is a good enough idea to try it for yourself or you dont.
Anthony with all the shit you put in your system “for the sake of research” I thought for sure you might give it a whirl…
[/quote]
I put things into my system for research, not take them out…
Kidding aside, he just assumes (nothing in the 4 articles supports this leap) that a non-suppressive dose will also be a restorative dose.
Also, if other compounds are far less suppressive, yet provide androgen replacement (Proviron) then why not drop the test totally and immediately at the end of the cycle, add in the totally non-suppressive compounds, and kickstart production with a SERM or AI? Or all of them? Well, because even if the taper has ANY merit, he still has yet to show that virtually every alternative would provide quicker recovery.
I understand he’s trying to avoid “crashing” but then why not use a steroidal AI (Aromasin) which lowers SHBG, increases test levels, improves libido, raises aggression and mood, and also lowers estrogen? Surely that’s preferable, as it provides quicker recovery, while being steroidal in nature and preventing post cycle crash.
Lets assume tapering has some merit (*though I doubt it)…it’s still the bottom of the barrel for recovery methodology and PCT.
But even dispite this, wouldn’t the logical thing then to be to skip to 50mgs/week, if this indeed would allow some recovery, while still maintaining normal levels? Why the taper.
In my understanding, endogenous testosterone and exogenous testosterone are indistinguishable by the body.
If this is true, then as the levels of testosterone (exogenous or endogenous) fall off below the natural threshold of an individual, the feedback response of the testosterone making machinery is to start making more.
The concept P#22 brought up with regards to the “dimmer switch” versus the “on/off” switch applies here rather well.
I think (someone can correct me if I’m mistaken) that the 0 testosterone level is what is the culprit behind the interesting discussions of late.
IF the subject was just using good old testosterone, then the concept of how tapering works goes back to the “dimmer switch” analogy; i.e. if the level of the exogenous or endogenous testosterone goes below the natural threshold, then the machinery turns back on and outputs just the amount to keep the levels “topped off” per say. As the exogenous levels decrease, the endogenous levels increase up to the top off point.
Now, if the user was using some other anabolic that shutdown the testosterone making machine, I think the same situation applies here?except there is the unknown (in terms of how to model the characteristics) question as to whether or not the body sees a decrease in exogenous steroid (different than testosterone) the same as how it interprets a decrease in T alone.
This is why I believe P#22 indicates the use of 100 mg of T right at the start of PCT, and the continued use of 100 mg of T as the levels of ?other? exogenous steroids decrease. Once the levels of the ?other? exogenous compounds goes to zero, what?s left is nothing but good old testosterone, whether it is exogenous or endogenous?.again I believe the body can?t distinguish. The tapering from 100 mg can then begin as the ?dimmer? switch concept then comes into play.
That?s not what he is trying to say at all. It comes back to the question of how the body interprets low level of testosterone and whether or not other exogenous steroids other than T is recognized similiarly as T.
Again, if the exogenous use is just T, then if the body will start to produce its own T as the exogenous levels fall. There shouldn?t be anytime whatsoever when the body is completely at 0 androgen level if the taper is done correctly.
Again, that is part of the question that is at heart here. How does the body ?interpret? levels of other exogenous compounds?
I will also note something else: sometimes the “machinery” doesn’t work properly after a long time in the garage.
In a perfect world, and with a perfect endocrine system, the taper should work if we assume the “dimmer” switch analogy. I think this should be the case most of the time.
Sometimes though, an element in this system doesn’t work right off the bat, and even though the testosterone levels decrease, there is no compensating increase from the body’s machinery due to other problems (i.e. engine won’t start).
For situations like this, other protocols could be necessary.