By the way, what’s the concensus on whether or not to press in front or behind the neck? It seems to me that front of the neck is better for your joints. I noticed in Staley’s recent article on mass builders that he recommends behind the neck. Ive had issues with my rotator cuff in the past, should that be a factor in my decision? Thanks for any input!
pressing behind neck? No thanks, not for me. For most, if we are still talking explosive lifting, this would be questionable. Almost no one does it anymore, and I don’t either, pressing behind the head and chinups behind the head. When I do see them it is shameful and scary to watch the forward lean, ballistic pulldown behind the head/x axis internal rotation.
I always press in the front because this is safer on the shoulders and more specific to the jerk (and even bench press). I have recently tried some behind the neck pressing BUT, it was with a wide snatch grip (index finger right on the rings or wider) which felt more comfortable on the shoulders, and, it was a light weight for high reps. CT talks about the BNP in his shoulder article and seems to come to the same conclusion. As I mentioned in my prior post in this thread and as Keith mentioned, I’ve found the most productive overhead pressing work to be done with a clean grip hand spacing (shoulder width or slightly outside shoulder width) and in the front. And even though it would seem that you can move more weight with a wider hand spacing due to the bar having to move a shorter distance, I’ve found this is not this case, at least in my experience, and that I press better with the clean grip. It may have something to do with shoulder biomechanics and triceps involvement - something I am not qualified in. I just know it works.
If i use a wide grip when overhead pressing i feel like if my clavicles were going to break…i don’t know why…narrow grip is really confortable for me.
[quote]aken wrote:
If i use a wide grip when overhead pressing i feel like if my clavicles were going to break…i don’t know why…narrow grip is really confortable for me.[/quote]
I have a similar sensation if using a wide grip in the front. Behind the neck is different. I would say use what is most comfortable for you.
Thanks Keith for taking the trouble to set out very clearly how the various
training elements might be integrated.
Very helpful.
One additional item ( or two, lol) don’t overlook the value and fun of doing overhead pressing with a parallel/hammer grip, do do this you can use dumbells, a specially designed hammer bar, or my favorite-a keg that is loaded with shot and water. This should be something that is done in addition to, rather than instead of conventional pressing.
I concur with advoiding behind the neck presses, some guys with longer arms can get away with it, but most cannot.
thank you for the kind comments, I am new at this forum, but would like to post a full article in the future on overhead pressing that goes into a lot more detail…maybe in the future
keith w.
I would echo the thoughts on behind the neck presses, however during recovery workouts for clients without any shoulder complaints I’ll throw in what I call Blenheim presses (I may have that name all wrong) where you press the bar to just above head height, then lower it behind the head, you then press back to head height and lower in front of the head. Thats one rep. I would always suggest a snatch grip to save any joint impingement during the behind-the-head phase.
aren’t those bradford presses?
Here is a copy of an interesting article:
“Improve Your Jerk” - Bob Bednarski (as told to Bill Starr)
"The clean and jerk has long been called the “king of the olympic lifts.” For some lifters, the jerk is their “ace in the hold,” or to put it simply, the lift which assures them victory. But this is not so with all lifters. Some dread the jerk. They constantly miss critical jerks in competition and subsequently lose important titles, not to mention their pride and in some cases, temper. This need not be the case. Actually, the jerk is one of the simplest movements to master. All you need to know is a few basic details (or secrets as some people like to call them) and you can add from 10 to 50 pounds to your jerk.
To make the details as plain and simple as possible I have outlined the jerk into eight separate segments.
- Upon recovery from the clean, the bar must rest firmly upon the chest, not the arms.
- The arms and chest must be firmly tensed.
- The head should be tilted up slightly and fixed in that position. In other words, it should not “bop” back and forth.
- The feet must be in a straight line and about 12 inches apart to assure the best drive.
- For maximum thurst, the feet must remain flat while the body dips from 3 to 5 inches.
- The bar should be thrust upward, straight, fast, and directly over the head.
- While splitting, concentrate on slamming the front foot. This will assure greater stability and also help complete the thrust.
Recovery should be performed by bringing the front foot back one step and then the rear foot forward to complete the lift.
Although I have outlined the jerk into eight parts it actually only takes a couple of seconds to perform the complete movement. Therefore, it would be impossible to concentrate on all eight segments at once. These movements must be drilled into your memory banks and the lift performed as a reflex. Work the segment of the jerk in which you are the weakest. Try to develop your jerk into a single, smooth movement so that it will be possible to handle limit poundages perfectly.
I suggest the following five exercises to help you increase your jerking power.
- The jerk off of the rack
- Jerks from behind the neck
- Heavy supports on chest
- Lock outs on the power rack
- Split lock outs on the power rack
Jerk off of the rack -
The best way to increase your jerking ability is simply to do more of them with heavier and heavier weights. I suggest concentrating on form and low reps (doubles or singles) with maximum poundages. For example, my best jerk off of the rack is 515. The following are the poundages that I used to work up to that weight: 135x3, 225x3, 315, 405, 465, 515.
Jerk Behind the Neck -
If your biggest problem is jerking the weight in the proper groove directly above your head or if you seem to jerk the weight forward then this simple exercise may solve all your headaches. Perform this exercise the same as the jerk off of the rack, but do singles only, or try doing the first rep from behind the neck and then a second rep from the front. I don’t suggest doing more than one rep behind the neck for the simple reason that lowering it after the first jerk can be dangerous.
Heavy Supports on Chest -
This exercise is fairly self-explanatory. It teaches you to maintain rigidity, which is perhaps the most important secret in jerking. Keep your body tight and solid at all times. Work up to a heavy poundage, some 200 pounds over your best jerk, and work in triples or fives. This will give you a tremendous amount of confidence when you recover from the clean and ready yourself for the dip.
Lock Outs on the Power Rack -
If your problem is maintaining stability in recovering from a jerk, then this exercise will help you tremendously. Lockouts should be performed from a height of approximately 3 to 5 inches above the head. Keep the arms locked at all times and lift the weight by bending the legs and then straightening them. You should be able to use very heavy weights in this exercise, perhaps 100-125 pounds or more above your best jerk.
Split Lock Outs on Power Rack -
This movement is similar to the one just mentioned but works the split position much more. On the power rack, set the bar at a height equal to the lowest point of your split. Push the weight off the pins and hold for 6-8 seconds. Do not come erect. The purpose is to strengthen the muscles involved in the split portion of the lift. Work up in 3-5 sets hitting a maximum poundage on the last set. You should be handling 100-125 pounds over your best jerk before becoming satisfied. I also suggest that you do not ride the bar up the rack, but rather try to hold the weight between the bars. This helps to strengthen the balance fore and aft as well as building the overhead strength.
For those having a special problem with their jerks I suggest at least two exercises per week be included in your program. Perhaps jerks off of the rack on Tuesdays and lock outs on Thursdays, or jerks behind the neck and heavy supports. Select those exercises which meet your personal needs. Generally speaking, it takes a lot of pure, hard work to get the jerk moving, but once it improves it is not too difficult to maintain. The rewards for your work will be reaped in abundance when you stand up from a maximum clean and feel 100% confident that the jerk will go.
Good one Keith, the only add on to your list of core strength exersizes I would make is overhead squats. As you say in one of your other posts perhaps the most humbling exercise.
If you do overhead squat use a snatch width grip (outside the rings) and start realy light try bar only for first timers and squat deep, get some weight on the bar a soon as you have figured out the movement as this helps get the groove.
One for you Keith, in the olympics the clean and jerk (yes TC we get all the coverage here given I’m on the same time zone as Greece) some of the lifters would widen their grip after the clean, the explanation given being that the jerk is shorter and can be more explosive yet you say make the grip narrower to be faster, can you explain what you were saying a bit.
well, there is quite a bit of difference in performing an overhead press and a jerk. With regards to hand position, when you are doing a press, I have found that a slightly narrower grip will enable a lifter to generate more power, especially during the initial part of the movement, and I also believe it places you in a more powerful position as the top half of the movement ( though there ARE exceptions) when doing a jerk, you will be DISQUALIFIED if you “press out” the weight, thus some lifters will widen their grip in order to shorten the ROM distance.
Hope that explanation helps.
bwt, for what it is worth, here would be my IDEAL lifting competition.
Squat-start from the bottom position
Clean and Overhead-Any style
Deadlift
Rick - Your article is very timely. I was watching the women’s heavyweights go at it last night. There were several instances where the lifters cleaned the weight with ease but seemed to have trouble on the jerk.
Keith - You read my mind about the ideal lifting comp, although I personally don’t like the bottom position squat – I think doing the deadlift is a sufficient test of starting strength for moving a dead weight. But I would definitely like to see a meet with:
Clean and strict press
Squat
Deadlift.
Why don’t you organize one? I would come.
If you have never done bottom position squats, you are really missing out-its one of my favorite movements and it is probably one of the safest squatting movements that there is.
How do you do bottom position squats? Do you start with the bar supported by the pins in the power rack?
If this is how you do it, how far down do you start with the pins? I have tried this recently and had trouble getting in a starting position at the bottom of a squat. I ended up placing the pins where I would start a couple inches above parallel.
The ideal starting position for bottom squats is roughly parallel, though you can also benefit from doing other variations such as dead stop quarter squats, etc, etc. If you cannot quite get to a parallel starting position, start at whatever depth you can and gradually work your way down. I have obsevered that people who have trouble achieving good squat depth, often lack flexibility in the lower body-especially in the hips ( and this includes a lot of people who are great athlete and are in good shape, etc) One of my favorite warm-ups for the squat is to ride a stationary bike for about 5-7 minutes at a moderate pace with my legs spread wide, knees out and the outer part of my foot on the pedal-it looks kind of obscene, but it really warms up all the right muscles.
Go low reps on the dead stop squats, no more than 5, and keep it in the 2-3 range-you can also do rest-pause, do one rep-rest 15 seconds, another rep, etc. This movement also works very well for those with nagging knee problems that they might be rehabbing-because it alows you to get into the proper groove before you start the upward movement.