I do appreciate the inputs and splitting the back assistance work sounds good to me, I’ll be honest, I hardly feel pull aparts and face pulls like true “exercises”, especially pull aparts. They’re entirely different than other kind of back exercises like chinups variations and such. But I’ll split them up to give it a try.
I understead that reading it that way it looks like a lot of volume but I hardly feel fatigue from pull aparts and face pulls in my workouts, at the same time since when I started doing them my shoulders health notably improved so I see it like a win/win scenario.
For what it’s worth, I do another 100 pull aparts and 50 dislocators almost every day before going to sleep, in addition to the ones I might have done previously during the workout… haven’t felt like they hindered my following workouts in any way. Being doing this for months now.
And I didn’t want to come off like being over-defensive of what I’m doing, I wrote the post very quickly before leaving home - apologies in that case.
The fact is that you’re right that sometimes people seem extremely zealous to defend some aspects of the program - until further evidence I’ll call BS on anyone who thinks that 5x10 Snatch Grip DLs instead of DLs or 5x10 Close Grip Bench Press instead of Bench Press will make or break a workout and long term gains. Especially when the book itself says “do these 5x10… use 50%, or 60% or 70%… or 40%. Pyramid down, or not. Whatever, just do them”.
Which is why I explained why I prefer some variations of the 5/3/1 movements because they cather to my weak links.
I don’t really look much at my absolute strength since my strength levels are clearly low tier and I usually just look if my strength is progressing or not.
But, if you mean total body strength, the fact that I’m doing 7-8 reps on 1+ days of Deadlifts and Front Squat tells me it’s not a matter of overall weakness.
If you mean specific press/upper body weakness, then it’s entirely possible, but mind it, I don’t want to “cure” it by hammering theoric weak links.
I want to reset back 3 cycles the 5/3/1 sets, I’ll do straight BBB 5x10 OHP and on the other upper day I have both dips and close grip bench, both are recommended as assistance stuff for upper body pressing.
The only real “weak link” exercise I added are the rear raises, the fact that I feel a lot of fatigue on the back of my shoulders during overhead pressing suggests that improving that area can’t really do no harm and as I said above, I don’t think that adding 3x10 sets of rear delts once a week will make or break a whole workout/program.
If they help to some degree that’s great, if they don’t I’ll waste 5-6 minutes once a week for something that can’t hurt me anyway.
Mind it, I’m not claiming to be strong by any mean, but a 132lbs press is 78% of my bodyweight. Which is nothing special, but my gym goals are not world shattering - 1xbw press is my upper body goal, for instance, and I took into account that it could easily take me two years of strength training to reach it.
Well, bench is one of the big 3 lifts and often the only fundamental barbell lift people train in most gyms.
But as I read not long ago in an article here on T Nation, some coaches consider the close grip bench press as a better display of actual strength because you can’t butcher the movement by much or “cheat” your way to a successful rep.
There’s a lot of people with good bench numbers in my gym. But the huge majority of them can squat less than what they bench, can barely crank out 3-4 consecutive reps on pullups/chinups, they don’t deadlift at all and let alone press overhead… which tells me that they’re actually in the “weak as hell” category. That’s the very definition of fake strength imho.
Which is not to shoot down the lift itself because it would be foolish, I just find that the bench press numbers of the average gym goer don’t really tell much about him.
While for me, the simple fact that close grip puts less strain on the shoulders makes it a preferred variation automatically.
Fair enough. Tbh i think id rather a strong squat or deadlift, to a bench press . Iv read that apparently you should have a pullup stronger then your bench or at least equal to as well. But as you said those benchers can barely crank out 3-4 reps.
Just a question have you tried incline or decline benching and if so how did they feel on your shoulders?
My gym doesn’t have decline benches, I tried with cable crosses (unilateral with underhand grip) and they work fine. Same for incline bench, I feel more shoulder involvement but not in a discomfortable way, it works good.
And even with dips I have no particular issue because I have a better control on how I retract the scapulae.
It’s the flat bench that puts my shoulders at the exact angle where discomfort happens during pressing and I struggle to have good control of my scapulae/back positioning. Namely, the right scapula, since it’s the right shoulder the troubled one.
Btw, I favor dips to incline bench because upper pecs already get activation during the overhead lifts and I think they’re doing “okay”, while I’m lagging a bit in the lower pec area
Yep dips are great Dips: The Upper Body Squat
my shoudlers hate incline.
My gym doesnt have a barbell for benching so i just use dumbells, i love flat db bench have you tried it?
I’ve done flat db bench for a long time when I was in a more generic mass/hypertrophy program. It feels good and I did it pressing the arms towards the inside and ending up with parallel dumbbels right above my sternum, which is very shoulder friendly.
But the gym dumbbells only increase of 2kg (4.5lbs) each at a time, which makes them a terrible choice for strength development
This is typically more a factor of choosing the right TM, not about strength or weakness.
Truthfully, at this point in your training, I would listen to the guy who has squatted 1000lbs when it comes to getting bigger and stronger. I imagine he’s got a handle on it.
You obviously have a point here, but as I said earlier in the thread, I tested all my 1RMs the week right before i started 5/3/1. I took 5lbs off from my (very grinded) OHP 1RM too when calculating the TM, to have a more conservative approach, it just strikes me as weird that the TM is spot on for DLs and Front Squats but so far off for OHP (maybe it’s just because I used 90% as per the original book instead of the recommended 80-85% of the following books).
But you’re right, I want to try to reset OHP back 3 cycles and see what happens, more out of curiosity and so that I can check the numbers and see what TM to apply after these 3 cycles, when I’ll go into one of the routines suggested above by Jim&others
I did it too once, and learned the hard way. This program is not very high volume to begin with, and setting your max too high means you get fewer reps with the target weight. If you set your max too high you won’t get enough reps to stimulate growth.
I simply lowered my TM back down below what it was before it started stalling. It was about a 15% reduction, and felt too light at first, but that’s one of the major tenets of this program. Worked like a charm.
I stalled on the Press at cycle 7 or 8. Did some math to reduce my TM from 90% to 85%. Ended up doing more reps. Smashed PRs for the next 3 months. Pressed 2 plates (225) a few months earlier than expected.
I’m just finishing my 4th cycle of 5/3/1 and I think the original 90%TM is too high. I’ve added 20lbs to my bench and OHP TM which puts me over my starting max for OHP and about 10lbs under my max for bench. I’m not really surprised that I’m struggling to hit the prescribed reps (and definitely not 5+ reps).
I didn’t max on deadlifts or squats before starting the program. I just low-balled an estimate and those have been great. Seems that having a lower TM is the way to go. I’m going back to 85% for my next cycle.
I think the biggest thing people miss is that it is supposed to be 90% of a GYM max; not 1rm. 90% of a number you can hit on any given day; not your absolute most perfect day of your life.
