Overeem Pulled from HWGP

WhiteFlash · August 6, 2011, 3:39am

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
I will make it simple for you:

Fedor from PRIDE age would O B L I T E R A T E every HW UFC has today.[/quote]

Obliterate may be too strong. I am going to need to see Cain look bad at some point before I assume someone is better. I am not saying he is anywhere near as proven as Fedor was, but he has looked great in every fight I have seen him in.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

I’m with Robert in that I wouldn’t say “obliterate”, but I’m certain he’d win. If you made one single mistake, Fedor attacked it immediately and the fight was over. Reading this kids nonsense responses is making my head hurt.

kaisermetal · August 6, 2011, 6:32am

Sorry, I’m trashed with Fedor loss, i can’t type any long answers and I’m only able to reply with childish remarks for a brief period of time, till i regain my composure and be able to breakdown and analyse in-depth the fights

audiogarden1 · August 6, 2011, 7:00am

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Sorry, I’m trashed with Fedor loss, i can’t type any long answers and I’m only able to reply with childish remarks for a brief period of time, till i regain my composure and be able to breakdown and analyse in-depth the fights [/quote]

I know the feeling…When Cro cop got head kick KO’ed by Gonzaga i was heartbroken.

To this day i avoid watching that knockout.

audiogarden1 · August 6, 2011, 7:02am

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
I will make it simple for you:

Fedor from PRIDE age would O B L I T E R A T E every HW UFC has today.[/quote]

Obliterate may be too strong. I am going to need to see Cain look bad at some point before I assume someone is better. I am not saying he is anywhere near as proven as Fedor was, but he has looked great in every fight I have seen him in.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

I’m with Robert in that I wouldn’t say “obliterate”, but I’m certain he’d win. If you made one single mistake, Fedor attacked it immediately and the fight was over. Reading this kids nonsense responses is making my head hurt.[/quote]

People’s opinions affect you that dramatically that it causes you physical pain?

There’s always the ignore list my friend.

WhiteFlash · August 6, 2011, 2:59pm

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
I will make it simple for you:

Fedor from PRIDE age would O B L I T E R A T E every HW UFC has today.[/quote]

Obliterate may be too strong. I am going to need to see Cain look bad at some point before I assume someone is better. I am not saying he is anywhere near as proven as Fedor was, but he has looked great in every fight I have seen him in.

Regards,

I’m with Robert in that I wouldn’t say “obliterate”, but I’m certain he’d win. If you made one single mistake, Fedor attacked it immediately and the fight was over. Reading this kids nonsense responses is making my head hurt.[/quote]

People’s opinions affect you that dramatically that it causes you physical pain?

There’s always the ignore list my friend.
[/quote]

Haha, touche’. I feel you on the Cro Cop head kick. That shit was hard to take.

kaisermetal · August 6, 2011, 5:28pm

Gonzaga made his career out of that head-kick, he had the tools to be a champion, it’s a shame he always lacked the heart.

audiogarden1 · August 6, 2011, 10:22pm

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Gonzaga made his career out of that head-kick, he had the tools to be a champion, it’s a shame he always lacked the heart.[/quote]

I do think that no doubt it is apparent that cro cop has slowed down as he has aged. However, when he first came to the UFC, i dont think age had much to do with his underwhelming performances. I think he simply lost that fighting spirit and killer instinct he had when he won the GP. Maybe after winning the GP he thought he had hit the epitome of his career and after that found it hard to stay motivated, but at least we still have all those old pride videos to remember him by.

He still has the second best highlight reel of all time after Anderson Silva in my opinion.

audiogarden1 · August 6, 2011, 10:25pm

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
I will make it simple for you:

Fedor from PRIDE age would O B L I T E R A T E every HW UFC has today.[/quote]

Obliterate may be too strong. I am going to need to see Cain look bad at some point before I assume someone is better. I am not saying he is anywhere near as proven as Fedor was, but he has looked great in every fight I have seen him in.

Regards,

I’m with Robert in that I wouldn’t say “obliterate”, but I’m certain he’d win. If you made one single mistake, Fedor attacked it immediately and the fight was over. Reading this kids nonsense responses is making my head hurt.[/quote]

People’s opinions affect you that dramatically that it causes you physical pain?

There’s always the ignore list my friend.
[/quote]

Haha, touche’. I feel you on the Cro Cop head kick. That shit was hard to take.
[/quote]

I am not exaggerating one bit when i say that i still wont watch the head kick.

If im watching UFC unleashed or something and that fight comes on, i am changing the channel, no doubt about it.

I remember seeing that happen live, and literally feeling my heart drop into my stomach. People would ask me what happened with the fights and for about a week after that i told them i didnt wanna talk about it.

For me it was like if someone convinced a christian that god doesnt exist. Crushing.

kaisermetal · August 7, 2011, 4:42am

I Cried the night Fedor lost to Werdum and felt depressed after his loss to Pezão.

rundymc · August 7, 2011, 5:17am

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:
I agree, Fedor stood and threw. Where once he had the ability to drag guys to the floor and the physical and technical ability to threaten in all areas, he’s become somewhat one dimensional now.
I’m not decided on whether it’s the game passing him by, or him regressing, but I’d wager it’s both.

He’s not top 5 anymore. Accept it. It’s not like he doesn’t have a legacy, lol.[/quote]

It has nothing to do with “the game passing him by”, it has to do with him getting old. Same thing happened with Cro Cop. There’s a reason fighters don’t have an old timers league.[/quote]

I have to go with Rundymc on this one. I do think Fedor is obviously past his prime, and while i wouldnt necessarily say the game as a whole is passing him by, i do think that as he fights more complete/elite fighters, the holes in his game are exposed. Ive been saying for years that Fedor will have trouble once he comes to the U.S. and starts consistently fighting the high level competition over here, and that is what has happened. [/quote]

If you agree that he’s past his prime and that now the holes in his game can be exposed where they once couldn’t then how is that the game passing him by? That is him getting old. Henderson still seems to be doing pretty damn well despite being the exact same fighter he’s always been, and he wasn’t near as dominant as Fedor, so what that shows me is age isn’t catching up with him as quickly.
[/quote]

Because as fedor begins facing more complete fighters who ARE at the top of their game, thats when he starts losing. And while i do think Fedor’s age has some effect on this, i dont think he declined all that much from his former self. Ive been saying for years that Fedor hasnt been tested consistently enough to say he’s the greatest HW in the world, and now he has been tested.

There’s no way for me to prove that the game has evolved at a faster rate than Fedor has, just as there’s no way you can prove to me that its simply due to age. So in that respect, we will likely have to agree to disagree. However, Fedor has fought some of the best competition of his career lately, guys he has never faced before, and the results speak for themselves.
[/quote]

I won’t agree to disagree. What you’re saying makes no sense. Fedor fought everyone at the top of their game in PRIDE when the UFC’s HW division was shit and he beat them all. Once again, Dan Henderson is THE EXACT same fighter he’s always been yet he’s still able to win, and he was never nearly as dominant as Fedor. All that shows is Fedor’s age is catching up with him all at once instead of slowly declining. How you don’t understand this is beyond me.[/quote]

Audio basically put forth the same argument I would have, lol. I would argue the HW division has advanced since Fedor’s time.

It’s tough to compare the two generations of prominent Heavies, I’ll grant you. Mirko got shot fast, Nog slowed down towards the end of Pride. There’s still Barnett and Werdum (back when he was younger) but I’m guessing both have improved over the years. With a couple of exceptions though (namely Mirko and Nog) I see the current crop of Heavies as better overall to their predecessors.

But yes, Fedor has slowed down noticeably.

Hendo fought in a different division(s).

rundymc · August 7, 2011, 5:28am

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
I will make it simple for you:

Fedor from PRIDE age would O B L I T E R A T E every HW UFC has today.[/quote]

Obliterate may be too strong. I am going to need to see Cain look bad at some point before I assume someone is better. I am not saying he is anywhere near as proven as Fedor was, but he has looked great in every fight I have seen him in.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Agreed. I think Junior and Cain would take him based on their decent hands, and he would have issues with the larger guys till he got the knockout.

Fedor was the best around in an era. That era has passed. His most impressive wins are Mirko and Nog. After that comes wins over Sylvia (impressive yes, though brief and replicated soon after by Mercer) and Arlovski (where his striking was somewhat exposed, though his power wasn’t).

Let’s not act like the Heavies haven’t gotten better, lol. There are a lot more guys fighting that are at or close to Mirko/Nog’s level and are well rounded.

Robert_A · August 7, 2011, 6:42am

[quote]rundymc wrote:
Let’s not act like the Heavies haven’t gotten better, lol. There are a lot more guys fighting that are at or close to Mirko/Nog’s level and are well rounded.[/quote]

I am just not that sure of this claim. Certainly the sport is more popular, and so there are more examples to pull anywhere on the bell curve of ability, but Fedor fought some tough, well rounded fighters.

Cro-Cop was a K-1 contender with wins over some of the best heavyweight kick boxers around. By the time Fedor faced him he also had decent takedown defense and a defensive guard. Big Nog is an ADCC and BJJ world level black belt, with decent boxing. Mark Hunt is a K-1 Oceana and Grand Prix Champ. Coleman is a multiple time Pan Am Champion in Freestyle wrestling, as well as a Pride Grand Prix Champ. Although pretty much a pure ground and pound fighter he managed to impose his game on some truly fantastic fighters. Semmy Schilt was a K-1 level kickboxer, and King of Pancrase when Fedor beat him, Schilt went on to be the K-1 wrecking machine we know today. These are legit international level combat athletes.

I recognize the counter point that today fighters are even more well-rounded, and hence more difficult to take out of their element and beat. And I can agree with the premise, but the current crop of heavies are not displaying the kind of awe inspiring cross-discipline mastery we see at 170 with GSP’s boxing, kyokushin, and wrestling or at 185 with Silva’s kickboxing and bjj.

I think Cain is the best of the new breed, and the number one in the world, but he ate a bunch of shots against Kongo, and had to rely on his chin (just like Fedor and Nog used to be able to). JDS probably has a ground game, but we really have not seen it so it is difficult to say if he is truly anything but a slugger. Carwin has a tremendous right hand and good wrestling, though not world level, but no jab or head movement. Lesnar is a beast on the mat, but cannot tolerate getting hit in the face. Mir is well rounded, but loses to any of the above. Overeem is certainly well credentialed, K-1 Grand Prix champ and ADCC Euro Champ, but his biggest win in MMA was Werdum. And Werdum is physically incapable of putting together a winning streak against quality opponents. After that who are the examples of the new breed, and really are we including Werdum and Ubereem as new breed? Big Foot Silva’s biggest win is Fedor, past that we will have to see. Nelson, Schaub, Mitrione, Kongo (he is so one dimensional he makes stick figures look bulky) all lose to the above.

In his prime Fedor Emelienenko was the absolute prototype for the well rounded fighter. His grappling ability allowed him to beat some of the best grapplers in the world. His fourth fight was a win against Ricardo Arona. He beat Sobral. He is the reason Big Nog is spent. His striking was unorthodox but it allowed him to beat Cro-Cop, Hunt, and Schilt. I say unorthodox as opposed to sloppy because any of those men would have laid out a sloppy fighter. I just think that somewhere along the road to his 31 wins TIME happened. His reflexes and durability no longer let him do the things he could in the past. I do not know if you follow boxing but Roy Jones Jr. is in a very similar situation and it is not that boxing has evolved and left him behind, it is because he got old.

Regards,

Robert A

rundymc · August 7, 2011, 8:05am

Good points.

I think if you were to look at Fedor’s opponents pre-Pride-death, there really are only two-three guys that measure up today: Nog, Mirko and Herring. Schilt and Hunt were K1 guys, and Mark never made that leap in cross training. Coleman was dangerous, as was Randleman, but both were one dimensional wrestler punchers.

I’m not making the claim that there are guys walking around who could’ve demolished Nog and Mirko. The Heavies have yet to evolve THAT much, hahah. But they’re better overall. Junior, Cain, Lesnar, Reem, Bigfoot, Mir, Werdum and even Carwin, would’ve threatened or beat Fedor/Nog/Mirko even back then (to varying degrees of course). Contrast that to the 03-05 era of Heavies and it’s clear the bar is higher now.

For the record though, and it should be said, obvious as it is, I think Fedor would’ve demolished his last 3 opponents in his prime, circa-Crocop fight, and dominated Arlov.

kaisermetal · August 7, 2011, 2:30pm

mmm but he isn’t that old, it just makes me wonder about that awesome article that came about talking about the 9 years span and the athletes performance on a mma career

http://www.fightopinion.com/2011/06/19/9-year-rule-mma-ufc/#more-9890

rundymc · August 7, 2011, 7:06pm

Interesting article for sho. You’re right about Fedor. He’s not old, but he’s been at it a while, and the physical deterioration is evident.

Wand, Nog, even Tito, are considered dinosaurs now by a lot of fans, and they hover at the 35 year mark.

Randy Couture STARTED at 34, and was an active greco guy before that.

rundymc · August 7, 2011, 7:11pm

“I predict that a lot of highly-ranked fighters are going to lose fights that people don?t expect them to in the near future. Anderson Silva has been fighting for 11 years now ? the beating he endured at the hands of Sonnen was no fluke; there?s a real possibility that he loses to Yushin Okami in a ?shock? upset. Georges St. Pierre reached the 9-year mark in January, and subjectively, he looked less impressive against Jake Shields than he had in a while. Other top-ranked fighters who have been competing for 9 years include Jon Fitch, B.J. Penn, Forrest Griffin, Frank Mir, and Alistair Overeem.”

That was the most interesting part of the article, though I’d lump Anderson and Georges as likely exceptions to the rule.

Robert_A · August 7, 2011, 11:06pm

[quote]rundymc wrote:
Randy Couture STARTED at 34, and was an active greco guy before that.

[/quote]

Well, Couture is a very different case. He is an exception to the rule. It should also be noted that he did not have an impressive win against a top opponent since Sylvia or Gonzaga in 2007. That put his record/MMA career at 15/16-8 over 10 years. Over his career Couture has lost about a third of his fights and fought 30 times in 14 years. Fedor at the ten year mark was a month away from losing to Werdum and sitting on a 31-1-1 record. Over his 11 years of pro competition he has fought 36 times, won 31 and lost 4. So not just the years, the milage.

Incidently Josh Barnett started MMA the same year Couture did, has a 30-5 record, and is a favorite to win the Strikeforce Grand Prix. Of course he is a year younger than Fedor and has not taken all of the beatings, although Cro-Cop did his best to make up for that.

The article was interesting, but I do not think it should surprise anyone that it is hard to compete on the professional level for a decade or more. Age and cumulative injuries happen.

NFL average retirement age is 30.

This paper puts pro rugby players at a 30 year old retirement.

I suspect an early to mid thirties retirement age is average across all world level sports. Sports with more physical injuries probably go younger. Fedor’s style required him to be fast enough to capitalize on small mistakes and durable enough to wether some beatings. Now he is not quite so fast, and has no where near the chin he once did. I still vote years combined with milage.

Regards,

Robert A

EDIT: The more I think about this, the more I think Couture is amazing for being able to basically get an extra decade at each stage. If he would have retired from Greco and started MMA at 25 and then basically faded at 35 he would be normal. But he kept with wrestling into his 30’s, started MMA in his mid thirties and retired from MMA at 48.

kaisermetal · August 8, 2011, 3:05am

And about football players, they average only 4 seasons, they spent all the other time rehabbing from injuries, it’s one of the shortest sports career i have in mind.

kaisermetal · August 9, 2011, 8:34pm

Bas rutten had a LONG tweet with a interesting opinion about GG and UFC

system · August 9, 2011, 8:38pm