[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Since I am not a Roman Catholic, that makes me a Heretic according to the Roman Catholic Church. Since I am a heretic does that mean I will NOT go to heaven and be with Jesus?[/quote]
You are not subject to the church in that you are not baptized into the faith. And no, we do not believe that non-Catholics are damned. Your salvation depends on your relationship with God, that’s not something for the church or anybody else to judge. Churches are ultimately a vehicle for faith. A church in it self cannot save you or damn you. It can provide you with tools to assist you in salvation, but the decision to know and love God is yours alone to make. Nobody can give it to you and nobody can take it from you.
You would be a heretic if claimed to be Catholic, and taught or guided others in ways or beliefs contrary to church teaching. For instance, that small contingent of nuns who favor legalized abortion are heretics. Why they have not been fired yet, I do not know. It’s something I hope Pope Francis does. I want them out.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Oh Lord help us. You think this has been confusing so far?
EDIT:
The short version for tonight is this:
There is no salvation outside the church, but they will get and keep you inside the church in their minds no matter how outside the church you insist upon being. Getting them to say literally ANYbody is going to hell is something I have never been able to do despite their undying proclamation that there is no salvation outside the church or upon death under the guilt of mortal sin. The New Testament on the other hand is relatively simple. There are those who are in Christ and those who are not and they aren’t usually that tough to tell apart. Usually. If nobody sees you as any different than them? If you think, talk and act no differently from the world? And ESPECIALLY if you have no conviction that you SHOULD be any different? It’s a pretty good bet you have not been supernaturally reborn by the Spirit of the living God. [/quote]
That’s because it’s not for us to judge. People will go to hell. There are clearly people out their who favor evil and hate God. But who am I to know if they repent, or change their lives somewhere down the line? Without repentance, we are all damned.
There are those who appear to be in Christ and those who do not appear to be in Christ. We see as man sees and not as God sees. To make the proclamation that you can see as God sees is a dangerous proposition. We are sternly warned in the scriptures not to do that. It’s a statement that seems to me way to glossed over these days. ‘Certainly Jesus didn’t mean this, or that’. No, I think he meant what he said and made no bones about it. So what if Jesus chooses certain people to be with him, even if we don’t think ‘they are in Christ’? How is that our problem? He tells us to follow Him.
I’ll do the best I can and leave the judging up to God. I don’t get the temptation to do otherwise.
I myself hold her in high regard Pat. I didn’t say, nor did I imply that he was canonized or promoted to doctor BECAUSE of that book. My point was that someone who wrote that book, which is STILL hugely popular, WAS canonized and promoted to doctor. The Roman Catholic Church is pickled in the language of Alphonsus. As I also said. He is far from alone.
John Paul II is shot in 1981 and who does he cry out to bleeding on the concrete? NOT Jesus Christ OR God the Father OR God the Holy Ghost, but MARY. Francis very first act as the new Pope after greeting his public is NOT to beseech the KING of heaven and earth for wisdom and grace, but to go and kneel before a statue of MARY. You can look these up. I’m going to really try to leave this alone for now. Try.
No Lutherans don’t have the same claim as Christianity. They are heretics, and at one time schismatics. Same for Protestants in general (being heretics). And, same for Evangelicals.
[/quote]
Pat, it seems that you and Brother Chris are at odds at what the RCC believes about Churches outside the RCC.
No Lutherans don’t have the same claim as Christianity. They are heretics, and at one time schismatics. Same for Protestants in general (being heretics). And, same for Evangelicals.
[/quote]
Pat, it seems that you and Brother Chris are at odds at what the RCC believes about Churches outside the RCC.[/quote]
I don’t speak for BC and he does not speak for me, and we are not at odds. I like him very much. I go by what the Catechism says about this type of stuff. There’s more to it than can be reasonably discussed on the forum.
I am guessing that BC was speaking under the duress of a heated debate. And when accusations fly I too get more rigid in my defenses.
In it’s origination as a splitting from the church, it was seen as heretical as it was a departure from the core teachings of the church. Now that the genie is out of the bottle, so to speak, the call is for unity between the sects rather than fighting.
I can say that when it comes to condemnations, Protestants condemn Catholics WAY more than Catholics condemn Protestants. It’s really not even close.
It’s not due to lack of ammo. What’s the point? Is criticizing doctrines or condemning others going to get either side closer to Christ? Is it going to change anybodies opinion? Is there salvation in condemnation? Nope.
I further have no interest in trying to talk you in to being Catholic. I am pretty sure that would be a waste of time. As far as I am concerned, fellow Christians aren’t in need of salvation. At that point, it’s between you and the Almighty.
I have been beaten up by Catholics, and I have beaten up on Catholics. Usually I hear Catholics say, well you do not have apostolic succession and salvation comes from the RCC, and you are a heretic so you are going to hell. Being called a Heretic really hurts because I read the Bible and I KNOW the Triune God. Southern Baptists then reply with well the Pope is the AntiChrist, and you worship Mary and the Saints, so you are going to hell.
I have some issues with both church’s doctrine. You and I both agree though it is between the person and God of whether they are saved or not. We can look at someone and see the fruit of the spirit or not and come up with assumptions, but in the long run it is between God and the individual. I wish the catholic church (little c not RCC, catholic meaning universal church or the church that Jesus founded) would come back together, but it will be hard with a single human (Pope) at the head IMO. It will take Jesus returning and bringing all his children to him, and Jesus being the head of the church.
God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is my king and I will worship him, go to him for help, and spread his Gospel to everyone who will listen. I am a New Creation through the power of the blood of Jesus Christ.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I myself hold her in high regard Pat. I didn’t say, nor did I imply that he was canonized or promoted to doctor BECAUSE of that book. My point was that someone who wrote that book, which is STILL hugely popular, WAS canonized and promoted to doctor. The Roman Catholic Church is pickled in the language of Alphonsus. As I also said. He is far from alone.
[/quote]
Of course, St. Alphonsus did a lot of great things and produced a lot of great works. And while he was devoted to the Blessed Mother, he wrote many more works most of which were about Jesus in the Eucharist, Jesus in scripture, the suffering and death of Jesus, etc. For what he wrote about Mary, he wrote much more about Jesus. You’re only paying attention to one part. I certainly do not deny there is a strong devotion to Mary in Catholicism. You can lump me in with that group. I have a strong devotion to her myself, and I am not ashamed to admit it. That being said, most of my prayer time is devoted to Jesus.
Here is kind of the end of the road with that discussion because a lot of this is based on experience and things I am not willing to discuss publicly because they are personal. But these experiences set in concrete my beliefs. No words or proclamations of any kind can out do what I personally have experienced.
[quote]
John Paul II is shot in 1981 and who does he cry out to bleeding on the concrete? NOT Jesus Christ OR God the Father OR God the Holy Ghost, but MARY. Francis very first act as the new Pope after greeting his public is NOT to beseech the KING of heaven and earth for wisdom and grace, but to go and kneel before a statue of MARY. You can look these up. I’m going to really try to leave this alone for now. Try.[/quote]
JP2, never hit the concrete. And I don’t know what he said at the time of his shooting, but why he did what he did in response was appropriate given the circumstances. To discuss that, is to head down a very Catholic road. I don’t mean it in a bad way, but you are not ready for such a discussion. You have to much invested in your dislike for the church to have that intimate of a discussion about it.
However, you only need to read the writings of Pope John Paul to understand his love of Christ. For are the Marionism with in the Church, Christ is still way more focused on then anything else. I can’t make you believe that but if you do the research you will see. Mary is important to the Church, Christ is the center of our universe.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Pat, I wish more Catholics were like you.
I have been beaten up by Catholics, and I have beaten up on Catholics. Usually I hear Catholics say, well you do not have apostolic succession and salvation comes from the RCC, and you are a heretic so you are going to hell. Being called a Heretic really hurts because I read the Bible and I KNOW the Triune God. Southern Baptists then reply with well the Pope is the AntiChrist, and you worship Mary and the Saints, so you are going to hell.
[/quote]
I am sorry to hear that d, I don’t like that either. But I feel I can make myself a little more vulnerable in this discussion because I don’t feel like I am being attacked. If I feel like I am being attacked, I also will become more rigid.
I don’t doubt your relationship with God. You seem to have a great love of the Lord and above all that is the most important thing and it’s something we share.
Living in the bible belt of course, I get more of the opposite. But in truth, for instance, I don’t agree with a lot of Protestantism, but I also see a great love of God and his scriptures. There is a beauty in that, that really transcends our differences. It’s taught me a lot about the power and importance of the Word. And the passion that people have for it is impressive. I like that.
In the end, I would like to see Catholics get a little more Protestant and Protestants get a little more Catholic. I am not speaking about changing of faiths. Just that the faiths have something to offer each other. We can learn from each other, and that’s never a bad thing.
Well I agree, such a unification will be a mighty act of God. People aren’t going to be able to pull that off. But we can learn from each other and that’s a good step. When Jesus does return, he will unify us.
[quote]
God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is my king and I will worship him, go to him for help, and spread his Gospel to everyone who will listen. I am a New Creation through the power of the blood of Jesus Christ.[/quote]
There is a manner in judging where you can determine the rightness of works and whether that leads one down the wrong path or not, and whether there can be any healthy association with that person or persons that would not also cause you to stumble. It’s also normal to call evil as you see it and denounce it. It’s not ok to determine the fate of somebody based on your own shallow observation. There is no way for us to see as God sees. We don’t know God’s plan for each person, nor whether or not they are capable of mercy and repentance. Such judgments I am against.
I am for the denunciation of evil. I am for delivering justice, but a persons fate I am not privy to. I can wager on some of the more extreme examples, such as those militia men in Africa who rape, murder, disfigure, and perform such evils as we can hardly imagine. I can wager they will feel the full force of God’s wrath. But for most we cannot know. We are called to repentance. Without repentance we are all damned.
This is not photoshopped and is fairly well known.
May 1999, kissing the Koran, In Iran, Oh Mon!
JPII wasn’t stupid, He was erudite, he knew exactly what the book says
about Christianity and the denial of the Son of God.
So why smooch it?
The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle . . .God is but one God. GOD FORBID THAT HE SHOULD HAVE A SON! (4:171)
Those who say The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son, preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack . . . (19:88)
God forbid that He Himself should beget a son! (19:29)
Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom . . (17:111)
God has begotten a son. God forbid! Self-sufficient is He. (10:68)
[quote]Karado wrote:
This is not photoshopped and is fairly well known.
May 1999, kissing the Koran, In Iran, Oh Mon!
JPII wasn’t stupid, He was erudite, he knew exactly what the book says
about Christianity and the denial of the Son of God.
So why smooch it?
The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle . . .God is but one God. GOD FORBID THAT HE SHOULD HAVE A SON! (4:171)
Those who say The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son, preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack . . . (19:88)
God forbid that He Himself should beget a son! (19:29)
Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom . . (17:111)
God has begotten a son. God forbid! Self-sufficient is He. (10:68)
[/quote]
OH NO! That’s it, I quit Catholicism!
LOL! Damn you’re petty. I have been to Friday Prayers, oooooooooo.
Do you have anything to say that’s not a waste of my time?
Otherwise, people here are having a grown-up conversation on faith. Get out of the kiddie pool.
