Opposite Of the Squat

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

There are a lot of things wrong with your line of thinking. I’ve literally never heard someone call the squat and deadlift “opposites” before reading this thread. But if you’re wondering why some people do those 2 lifts exclusively for their lower body, it is because its possible to build big, strong, good-looking legs from doing only those 2 exercises.

As to your point about squats and deads not stimulating the hamstrings or stimulating them only as stabilizers, this is patently wrong. The hamstrings are prime movers in both exercises. You don’t seem to realize that the hamstrings cross the hip as well as the knee, and are responsible for both knee flexion AND hip extension.

Since squat and deads involve moving from a position of hip flexion to hip extension, the hamstrings are prime movers in both cases. Because the loading potential for hip extension exercises is so much greater than that of knee flexion exercises, it is possible to achieve far greater stimulation and development of the hamstrings by squatting and deadlifting than by doing leg curls.

Finally, your ideas about anterior pelvic tilt are a bit off the mark. While it is true that the hamstring muscles are lengthened and/or inhibited in cases of true APT, this is usually a product of the pelvic positioning rather than the cause. Usually people with APT are stuck in a state of chronic hip flexion, and would be well-served by doing more loaded hip extension (and stretching the hip flexors, of course). Not sure why you think more knee flexion work is the answer.

22

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
@jskrabac - As you can see, there are a lot of people that do no direct hamstring work. Or any type of knee flexion movement whatsoever.
[/quote]
Name one please.

True story, but anyone who squats and deadlifts also does direct hamstring work, making it a moot point.

This is because you don’t understand the anatomy of the leg, see above posts from Ecchastang, among others. It also suggests that you’ve never done a great deal of squatting.

We all understand what lower body flexion means, that’s not the issue we’re having with your post.

[quote]
@dagill2 - I was thinking muscle imbalances which eventually = injuries. I just find it hard to believe that if continually doing a knee extension exercise, the knee flexion muscles (hamstrings) will not fall behind eventually. It sounds like the equivalent to doing only bench press and hoping the biceps will develop because it is a stabilizing muscle.[/quote]
Muscle imbalances will eventually lead to injuries, I agree. The issue here comes from the fact that you seriously underestimate the involvement of the hamstrings in a properly performed squat or deadlift.

23

Thanks guys. It took some effort for me to understand where you all were coming from but I did not realize hamstrings are a primary mover in the hip extension. I assumed hip extension was glutes / lower back. I have felt sore hamstrings after squats/deads but attributed it to how I also felt lat soreness in pushups… Basically you wouldn’t rely on pushups/bench press for lat work.

24

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
How come I read that the opposite of a squat is the deadlift? Where did this come from?[/quote]

Well where did you read it?

25

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
Thanks guys. It took some effort for me to understand where you all were coming from but I did not realize hamstrings are a primary mover in the hip extension. I assumed hip extension was glutes / lower back. I have felt sore hamstrings after squats/deads but attributed it to how I also felt lat soreness in pushups… Basically you wouldn’t rely on pushups/bench press for lat work.[/quote]

Glad you saw the light. Glutes drive hip extension as well; lower back doesn’t.

26

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

The hamstring crosses two joints, the hip and the knee, and is involved in knee flexion and hip extension. The squat uses the hamstring in hip extension. It is not just a stabilizer, as you incorrectly state.
[/quote]

The hamstrings are dynamic stabilizers during the squat exercise. Their length doesn’t change much, as they lengthen at the hip joint but shorten at the knee joint.

27

[quote]TrevorLPT wrote:

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
Thanks guys. It took some effort for me to understand where you all were coming from but I did not realize hamstrings are a primary mover in the hip extension. I assumed hip extension was glutes / lower back. I have felt sore hamstrings after squats/deads but attributed it to how I also felt lat soreness in pushups… Basically you wouldn’t rely on pushups/bench press for lat work.[/quote]

Glad you saw the light. Glutes drive hip extension as well; lower back doesn’t.
[/quote]
Also a good point, and an important distinction.

[Low] Back extension and hip extension aren’t the same thing, even though to the untrained eye, they both look like you’re bending at the hips.

28

Standing overhead press?

29

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
@jskrabac - As you can see, there are a lot of people that do no direct hamstring work. Or any type of knee flexion movement whatsoever.

It also looks like T3hPwnisher would agree that doing absolutely no hamstring work is sacrificing a balanced physique for the sake of athletic performance.

@thegymismyshrink - I agree that they do involve the hamstrings and abs and that they act only as stabilizers. To me, it is equivalent to saying that a pushup involves the lats. I can’t imagine how a knee extension exercise (quads) could involve the knee flexion muscles (hamstrings) equally enough to merit doing absolutely no knee flexion exercises.

@Flipcollar - I wonder if you have APT and how bad it is? Anyway, lower body flexion = hip flexion / knee flexion / ankle flexion. That should’ve been apparent in my first post… Clearly you can’t listen to your own advice and get in the gym and fucking squat for hours if you have the time to reply to a thread you seem to not give a shit about.

@dagill2 - I was thinking muscle imbalances which eventually = injuries. I just find it hard to believe that if continually doing a knee extension exercise, the knee flexion muscles (hamstrings) will not fall behind eventually. It sounds like the equivalent to doing only bench press and hoping the biceps will develop because it is a stabilizing muscle.[/quote]

you’re right. I don’t even lift.

You think I don’t do hamstring work when I squat and deadlift? Give me a break. I seriously can’t believe I’m being called out for leg development in this thread.

30

@OP…

On Pwnisher’s blog, one of his programs mentions doing one set of GHRs for AMAP 3x a week. It’s worked well for me in the past and will probably be implemented again. Give that a go and forget let curls.

Edited

31

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
@jskrabac - As you can see, there are a lot of people that do no direct hamstring work. Or any type of knee flexion movement whatsoever.

It also looks like T3hPwnisher would agree that doing absolutely no hamstring work is sacrificing a balanced physique for the sake of athletic performance.

@thegymismyshrink - I agree that they do involve the hamstrings and abs and that they act only as stabilizers. To me, it is equivalent to saying that a pushup involves the lats. I can’t imagine how a knee extension exercise (quads) could involve the knee flexion muscles (hamstrings) equally enough to merit doing absolutely no knee flexion exercises.

@Flipcollar - I wonder if you have APT and how bad it is? Anyway, lower body flexion = hip flexion / knee flexion / ankle flexion. That should’ve been apparent in my first post… Clearly you can’t listen to your own advice and get in the gym and fucking squat for hours if you have the time to reply to a thread you seem to not give a shit about.

@dagill2 - I was thinking muscle imbalances which eventually = injuries. I just find it hard to believe that if continually doing a knee extension exercise, the knee flexion muscles (hamstrings) will not fall behind eventually. It sounds like the equivalent to doing only bench press and hoping the biceps will develop because it is a stabilizing muscle.[/quote]

you’re right. I don’t even lift.

You think I don’t do hamstring work when I squat and deadlift? Give me a break. I seriously can’t believe I’m being called out for leg development in this thread.
[/quote]

OP’s a troll, but I’m actually surprised you don’t do leg curls. Why not throw in 3-5 sets a week? Wouldn’t hurt anything.

32

[quote]kollak95 wrote:
@OP…

On Pwnisher’s blog, one of his programs mentions doing one set of GHRs for AMAP 3x a week. It’s worked well for me in the past and will probably be implemented again. Give that a go and forget let curls.

Edited [/quote]

Glad that has worked out for you. I’ve moved my GHRs to my warm-ups for squats these days, just because I have a lot of other things to train and less time, but it’s still a great way to get in some volume on a killer movement.

33

no the deadlift is not a reverse squat
totally different mechanics
whoever said this should read starting strength

34

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
@jskrabac - As you can see, there are a lot of people that do no direct hamstring work. Or any type of knee flexion movement whatsoever.

It also looks like T3hPwnisher would agree that doing absolutely no hamstring work is sacrificing a balanced physique for the sake of athletic performance.

@thegymismyshrink - I agree that they do involve the hamstrings and abs and that they act only as stabilizers. To me, it is equivalent to saying that a pushup involves the lats. I can’t imagine how a knee extension exercise (quads) could involve the knee flexion muscles (hamstrings) equally enough to merit doing absolutely no knee flexion exercises.

@Flipcollar - I wonder if you have APT and how bad it is? Anyway, lower body flexion = hip flexion / knee flexion / ankle flexion. That should’ve been apparent in my first post… Clearly you can’t listen to your own advice and get in the gym and fucking squat for hours if you have the time to reply to a thread you seem to not give a shit about.

@dagill2 - I was thinking muscle imbalances which eventually = injuries. I just find it hard to believe that if continually doing a knee extension exercise, the knee flexion muscles (hamstrings) will not fall behind eventually. It sounds like the equivalent to doing only bench press and hoping the biceps will develop because it is a stabilizing muscle.[/quote]

you’re right. I don’t even lift.

You think I don’t do hamstring work when I squat and deadlift? Give me a break. I seriously can’t believe I’m being called out for leg development in this thread.
[/quote]

OP’s a troll, but I’m actually surprised you don’t do leg curls. Why not throw in 3-5 sets a week? Wouldn’t hurt anything. [/quote]

Well… yes and no in my case. I do think there is value in leg curls. I simply think there’s more value in squats. 3-5 sets of leg curls is going to add 10ish minutes to my workout. This doesn’t sound like much, but I have exactly 1 hour of gym time, 2-4 times a week. Training economy is the issue. So on the rare occasion that I finish my squats or deadlifts with 10 minutes to spare, I may do leg curls, extensions, good mornings, etc. It just doesn’t happen often for me. This is detailed more in my log, but cliff notes: I have a 5 month old son.

35

[quote]thegymismyshrink wrote:
Also, for some reason I now have more tibialis anterior definition, and I don’t train it directly, so squats and deadlifts have to be the answer. I think we often look at the muscles an exercise contracts directly and forget how many muscles we use for stabilization. That’s why we do barbell compounds - so we don’t need a shin machine and an ab machine and a hipflexor machine, etc.[/quote]
OMG, when I first noticed this muscle I was like “WTF is that bump on my shin!?!” Then I was all “Huh, it’s on both shins. Must be a muscle.”

I love squats.

36

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
@jskrabac - As you can see, there are a lot of people that do no direct hamstring work. Or any type of knee flexion movement whatsoever.

It also looks like T3hPwnisher would agree that doing absolutely no hamstring work is sacrificing a balanced physique for the sake of athletic performance.

@thegymismyshrink - I agree that they do involve the hamstrings and abs and that they act only as stabilizers. To me, it is equivalent to saying that a pushup involves the lats. I can’t imagine how a knee extension exercise (quads) could involve the knee flexion muscles (hamstrings) equally enough to merit doing absolutely no knee flexion exercises.

@Flipcollar - I wonder if you have APT and how bad it is? Anyway, lower body flexion = hip flexion / knee flexion / ankle flexion. That should’ve been apparent in my first post… Clearly you can’t listen to your own advice and get in the gym and fucking squat for hours if you have the time to reply to a thread you seem to not give a shit about.

@dagill2 - I was thinking muscle imbalances which eventually = injuries. I just find it hard to believe that if continually doing a knee extension exercise, the knee flexion muscles (hamstrings) will not fall behind eventually. It sounds like the equivalent to doing only bench press and hoping the biceps will develop because it is a stabilizing muscle.[/quote]

you’re right. I don’t even lift.

You think I don’t do hamstring work when I squat and deadlift? Give me a break. I seriously can’t believe I’m being called out for leg development in this thread.
[/quote]

OP’s a troll, but I’m actually surprised you don’t do leg curls. Why not throw in 3-5 sets a week? Wouldn’t hurt anything. [/quote]

Well… yes and no in my case. I do think there is value in leg curls. I simply think there’s more value in squats. 3-5 sets of leg curls is going to add 10ish minutes to my workout. This doesn’t sound like much, but I have exactly 1 hour of gym time, 2-4 times a week. Training economy is the issue. So on the rare occasion that I finish my squats or deadlifts with 10 minutes to spare, I may do leg curls, extensions, good mornings, etc. It just doesn’t happen often for me. This is detailed more in my log, but cliff notes: I have a 5 month old son.[/quote]

In a time crunch I like to start incorporating supersets or giant sets for accessory leg work.

37

I have heard the exercises partnered in a 5x5 stronglift referred to as push/pull. Not opposites.