Opinions on Speed Work

Training Powerlifting
121

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]burt128 wrote:
So what are people’s opinions on programming speed work for a raw lifter who doesn’t train Westside? I saw the mention regarding the Sadiv sets on deadlifts, but I’ve always thought the rule was speed first, heavy work second. Could one complete the working sets for the squat, bench and deadlift and then follow those working sets with two to three downsets at a lower percentage and with great speed? Perhaps that would be a way to train speed work without having a speed day.[/quote]

My understanding of sadiv sets was do heavy work first, then speed sets. The coan phillippi program also has speed work after heavy work. I don’t know what the rationale behind this is. However, having done sadiv sets before, I would not want to do heavy work after them. I’d be interested in someone explaining scientifically how the body is affected differently by doing speed work and heavy work same session different orders, or in different sessions[/quote]

Don’t you think that going heavier first may get your muscles firing optimally: synchronized frequency, highest threshold MUs turned on, and inhibitory reflexes supressed? Also stabilizers fully activated? Then “lighter” work is going to be faster, or you will be able to perform more reps. The question I have had about this though is whether the speed or reps gained by going heavier first is activating and exhausting more motor units, or if its just making you more reflexively efficient, and “elastic”, effectively reducing the muscular work needed to complete a rep. If the heavier load just makes you more efficient/elastic then the lighter work may not be any more effective at fatiguing motor units. Then again a) it might because it has raised muscle activation and b) even if it doesn’t it is still exposing the tendon apparatus to high force reps and causing adaptation that way.

An example that you might test is to work up to one or two singles at 90%+. Then use 75%, but don’t count reps but count TUT and don’t lock out. I bet that TUT to failure will not go up. That is my experience.

So what I’m saying is that heavy first may let your reps be higher force, but may not increase ability to fatigue motor units-it may change the pattern of motor unit fatigue which is good though.

The Josh Bryant article shows that peak power goes up after lifting max weights and for several minutes, but without EMG we don’t know if it is simply functional power output on the bar.

I think that it is important to vary reps, load, mass, degree of stretch, ROM, lowering spead, pauses, method of accomodating resistance and rest intervals between sets to assure that over time you are fatiguing a broad “corridor” of the larger fast twitch motor units. AND

To use some training methodology that produces high force across the tendon to cause adaptation of the tendon reflex mechanism over time.

a) MU fatigue AND b) tendon/reflex adaptation. The third thing of course would be c) protein degradation leading to hypertrophy. These would tend to correspond to a) max or heavy weights; b) max weights plus plyometric “fast” stuff and c) repetition.

122

IDK why it works Mert. Here’s my story that I assume is similar to the discussion now. I had a hellava hard time increasing my bench using ‘regular’ methods. I tried all kinds of stuff but I was pretty much stuck in the 295/305 ish 1rm raw barrier. Then I Found Sebastian Burns Metal Militia bench training. The gist of it if I remember correctly was to warm up using board presses.

Close ish grip ( I even did reverse band stuff) working up to a 3 rm or so then switch to a bench shirt, only I didn’t use a bench shirt. What I found was when I dropped back to my 295 / 305 I could get 3-4 reps. I progressively got better and worked myself up to where I was 3 boarding 425 then banging 365 for 3-4 reps off the chest.

I can’t answer all those great question you asked, lol but all I can say is repping weights that I could only do once was fricking bad ass. I’m now a year past a major shoulder rebuild. I’m pretty much back in that ‘305/315 rut’ for 1-3 reps depending on the day. I think I’m going to try this CAT training thing and see what happens.

123

Very interesting ideas and thanks for sharing. Doing speed work second runs counter to the Westside stuff I always read, but the notion that priming the nervous system makes lighter weights feel even lighter make intuitive sense. I’ve been adding downsets to my sessions for the last couple of weeks. I start a new 6 week block in the first part of July – I think I’ll program in some speed sets after the main work and see how things go.

124

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
IDK why it works Mert. Here’s my story that I assume is similar to the discussion now. I had a hellava hard time increasing my bench using ‘regular’ methods. I tried all kinds of stuff but I was pretty much stuck in the 295/305 ish 1rm raw barrier. Then I Found Sebastian Burns Metal Militia bench training. The gist of it if I remember correctly was to warm up using board presses.

Close ish grip ( I even did reverse band stuff) working up to a 3 rm or so then switch to a bench shirt, only I didn’t use a bench shirt. What I found was when I dropped back to my 295 / 305 I could get 3-4 reps. I progressively got better and worked myself up to where I was 3 boarding 425 then banging 365 for 3-4 reps off the chest.

I can’t answer all those great question you asked, lol but all I can say is repping weights that I could only do once was fricking bad ass. I’m now a year past a major shoulder rebuild. I’m pretty much back in that ‘305/315 rut’ for 1-3 reps depending on the day. I think I’m going to try this CAT training thing and see what happens. [/quote]

I think what you are doing effectively is an overload “isometric” like a maximal hold, except for a partial, at any rate you are holding a heavy weight at arms length. I think its pretty well known that overload partials or holds are going to activate high threshold MUS and also blunt inhibitory reflexes. I think its great if it can be done with partials or reverse bands because it is less stressful on the joints.

The question really for ME is, if the 3 board press at 425 got you up to tripling a max weight full range, what was the role of the full range triple. Don’t get me wrong. A typical way I have trained is to take a version of a movement, say today I am going to do a 2-board press with doubled small bands. I would work up to a near max single, or double or triple, and then drop down to 80% of that for usually 12-24 total reps. Seems like a good idea, but somehow the 12-24 reps seemed less effective after I had worked up to a max triple. It was harder to add weight the next time and there just seemed to be something wrong about ending with a lighter weight on a main movement, but if the heavy movement was top overloaded, then maybe it works.

So max out on a top overloaded move like 3 boards, or reverse bands, rotate regularly and then do main sets. One other idea about this is that it “turns on” your lockout MUs so you can overload the bottom range with the full range movements.

I have known MM guys though who could full bench with shirt more than they 3 board pressed (even with a shirt).

Anyway I think that varying loads or waving loads in a workout are a strategy to broaden MU fatigue, but doing multiple sets all at work weight, or working up to a max triple with 10 pound jumps, or doing 5-3-2 reps as you add 5% to each set all may be fatiguing MUs a little differently. The one thing that I think gets overlooked is reducing the time component between work sets.

Consider this as well. The ME effort was developed my the Russians to KEEP athletes from pushing at 100% of their physiological capacity. When athletes used lifts that they were most familiar with, they could train at such a high threshold that the stress derailed their training. They used variations so that they would not suffer emotional stress from facing the comp lift, a lift where they were proficient at exerting 100% physiologic force in, and in which was the most stressful (full range). Using conjugate exercises they were not familiar enough to hit 100% of true maximal capacity. IOW 100% of true capacity training does not build strength because it is too stressful. It is better to max on something where you are only good enough at to maybe get to 90% of your true capacity on.

125

Both of those are real good articles, never seen either one. So for a squat workout, if you were to ramp up to your heaviest set of say 3, than drop by 10% and do 3-5 work sets of 3-5 reps, than drop that to 50-60% and do 3-5 speed sets of 3-5 reps. I wonder if in between these speed sets would be a good time to do your jumps, I’ve been doing single leg BW long jumps lately, say 5 jumps per leg, between each speed set of squats, so that would be 5 sets of jumps, and 5 sets speed squats. This would be a good way to squeeze everything in with out getting to complicated. As for bench same exact workout, except explosive box pushups between the speed bench, and on speed bench I like to set the bar on my chest for a 2sec. pause. See how this work in practice. I was over at JTS strength, and they were talking about a 600lb squat where the bar came off the lifters shoulders by 2 inches, this is explosive training at it’s best

126

I spent the weekend researching this topic, just the way I am once I’m thinking about something. I didn’t look up any science studies, just looked up a bunch of strong raw lifters I look up to, and see what they’re doing. Seems nobody is using bands or chains in they’re training anymore, this mirrors what I’m seeing around my area. At my gym there’s still a rack set up for bands, but the only guys using them are BBer’s for reverse band stuff, trying to look strong I assume, no percentage lifting by any means. The point is bands were all the rage in the industry for about 5yrs, but strong guys weren’t getting any benefit from them, so they slowly went out of fashion. You can’t put a price on keeping your workouts fun and interesting, and this is where bands can still be valuable. Obviously Louie and a lot of geared lifters are still using bands, and they wouldn’t be if they weren’t working, but the raw guys have gone another way, Jim Steel, Brandon Lilly, Danial Green, Eric Lilliebridge, Paul Carter, this is just a small list of record holding raw lifters, and I couldn’t find one of them that were using bands in their training. I’m not trying to cause an argument, but I think guys are always searching for magical routines that don’t exist. Short of jumping and sprinting there doesn’t seem to be much speed work at all, all though I think these guys spend a lot of training time with 60- 80% of max, and this is probably done with great speed. Anyway I’m in a rush cause dinners ready, more latter.

127

Two words into the last post my wife was yelling for me to come to dinner, so sorry if it sounds short, angry, or dyslexic, none of that was my objective. This thread got me thinking about what other gyms were doing, and when it proved my point I went on a little rant, I apologise. Its of little use to me what some fat out of shape three ply denim lifter does for training, I don’t spend much time on the computer, and I don’t take over threads, but this one interested me because it ties into what I do. More guys that want to be strong, I feel should be following, and worshiping guys like Eric Lillebridge, and Brandon Lilly. Their training methods will take the average lifter a lot further than west side methods, but the industry is upside down, with 150lb kids worrying about bands, chains, and ME days. I don’t know, sorry to hijack, it just bothers me

128

I wonder how much of this “no bands / chains” stuff is just folks trying to distance themselves professionally from Louie and West-side or training like that? I mean how is a guy going to make a name for himself if they are simply doing what another guy is doing, regardless of how effective it may or may not be? Kind of like when I turn on the TV. 8 min abs is now 7 min abs, which is 6 min abs. Beach body turned into P90X, now that’s ‘easy’ now we got insanity, oh, that’s for wimps, do SEAL FIT etc. Everyone has to get their name out there right or go back to working a drab 9-5…

speaking of supper, I’ve got kabobs to grill!

129

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]burt128 wrote:
So what are people’s opinions on programming speed work for a raw lifter who doesn’t train Westside? I saw the mention regarding the Sadiv sets on deadlifts, but I’ve always thought the rule was speed first, heavy work second. Could one complete the working sets for the squat, bench and deadlift and then follow those working sets with two to three downsets at a lower percentage and with great speed? Perhaps that would be a way to train speed work without having a speed day.[/quote]

My understanding of sadiv sets was do heavy work first, then speed sets. The coan phillippi program also has speed work after heavy work. I don’t know what the rationale behind this is. However, having done sadiv sets before, I would not want to do heavy work after them. I’d be interested in someone explaining scientifically how the body is affected differently by doing speed work and heavy work same session different orders, or in different sessions[/quote]

Don’t you think that going heavier first may get your muscles firing optimally: synchronized frequency, highest threshold MUs turned on, and inhibitory reflexes supressed? Also stabilizers fully activated? Then “lighter” work is going to be faster, or you will be able to perform more reps. The question I have had about this though is whether the speed or reps gained by going heavier first is activating and exhausting more motor units, or if its just making you more reflexively efficient, and “elastic”, effectively reducing the muscular work needed to complete a rep. If the heavier load just makes you more efficient/elastic then the lighter work may not be any more effective at fatiguing motor units. Then again a) it might because it has raised muscle activation and b) even if it doesn’t it is still exposing the tendon apparatus to high force reps and causing adaptation that way.

An example that you might test is to work up to one or two singles at 90%+. Then use 75%, but don’t count reps but count TUT and don’t lock out. I bet that TUT to failure will not go up. That is my experience.

So what I’m saying is that heavy first may let your reps be higher force, but may not increase ability to fatigue motor units-it may change the pattern of motor unit fatigue which is good though.

The Josh Bryant article shows that peak power goes up after lifting max weights and for several minutes, but without EMG we don’t know if it is simply functional power output on the bar.

I think that it is important to vary reps, load, mass, degree of stretch, ROM, lowering spead, pauses, method of accomodating resistance and rest intervals between sets to assure that over time you are fatiguing a broad “corridor” of the larger fast twitch motor units. AND

To use some training methodology that produces high force across the tendon to cause adaptation of the tendon reflex mechanism over time.

a) MU fatigue AND b) tendon/reflex adaptation. The third thing of course would be c) protein degradation leading to hypertrophy. These would tend to correspond to a) max or heavy weights; b) max weights plus plyometric “fast” stuff and c) repetition.

[/quote]

I think a lot of the ideas presented are applicable in general. However, and I should have been more clear, I was ony speaking in the context of deadlifts (sadiv sets and coan-philippi are deadlift pregrams).

Having never done coan-philippi, I can’t really say anything about.

As for sadiv sets, the programming is very open ended. Basically after doing heavy work, you do speed reps. The only guideline is get at least 20 reps in 12 minutes. I used to load the bar with 60% 1RM and try to do a speed double every minute so getting all the sets would be 24 reps. If I was absolutely dying I would stop at 20 but if I got all 24 I would add weight the next week. But there’s no reason to use that rep range, you could do sets of 5, 10, ladder 1 2 3 4 5 5, whatever, as long as the bar moves fast.

The point is though, i’m sure I was fatiguing a lot of motor units programming deads this way, I could feel it; also I consistently made progress regardless of the heavy work that preceded the sadiv sets. In any case, it was the most efficient way I could add volume to DL day and still go heavy

You made a point that training this way may lead to a tendon reflex adaptation without fatiguing more high threshold motor units, but since I was talking about deads only, I don’t think that point is applicable because its a concentric only lift.

130

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
I spent the weekend researching this topic, just the way I am once I’m thinking about something. I didn’t look up any science studies, just looked up a bunch of strong raw lifters I look up to, and see what they’re doing. Seems nobody is using bands or chains in they’re training anymore, [/quote]

that’s because the trend has been to train shirted, and with a shirt you already have accomodating resistance. Lots of board presses too, and because the board sinks slightly into the chest, it also provides a little starting speed, therefore accomodating resistance.

Sorry, I see that you later wrote “raw lifters”.

131

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]burt128 wrote:
So what are people’s opinions on programming speed work for a raw lifter who doesn’t train Westside? I saw the mention regarding the Sadiv sets on deadlifts, but I’ve always thought the rule was speed first, heavy work second. Could one complete the working sets for the squat, bench and deadlift and then follow those working sets with two to three downsets at a lower percentage and with great speed? Perhaps that would be a way to train speed work without having a speed day.[/quote]

My understanding of sadiv sets was do heavy work first, then speed sets. The coan phillippi program also has speed work after heavy work. I don’t know what the rationale behind this is. However, having done sadiv sets before, I would not want to do heavy work after them. I’d be interested in someone explaining scientifically how the body is affected differently by doing speed work and heavy work same session different orders, or in different sessions[/quote]

Don’t you think that going heavier first may get your muscles firing optimally: synchronized frequency, highest threshold MUs turned on, and inhibitory reflexes supressed? Also stabilizers fully activated? Then “lighter” work is going to be faster, or you will be able to perform more reps. The question I have had about this though is whether the speed or reps gained by going heavier first is activating and exhausting more motor units, or if its just making you more reflexively efficient, and “elastic”, effectively reducing the muscular work needed to complete a rep. If the heavier load just makes you more efficient/elastic then the lighter work may not be any more effective at fatiguing motor units. Then again a) it might because it has raised muscle activation and b) even if it doesn’t it is still exposing the tendon apparatus to high force reps and causing adaptation that way.

An example that you might test is to work up to one or two singles at 90%+. Then use 75%, but don’t count reps but count TUT and don’t lock out. I bet that TUT to failure will not go up. That is my experience.

So what I’m saying is that heavy first may let your reps be higher force, but may not increase ability to fatigue motor units-it may change the pattern of motor unit fatigue which is good though.

The Josh Bryant article shows that peak power goes up after lifting max weights and for several minutes, but without EMG we don’t know if it is simply functional power output on the bar.

I think that it is important to vary reps, load, mass, degree of stretch, ROM, lowering spead, pauses, method of accomodating resistance and rest intervals between sets to assure that over time you are fatiguing a broad “corridor” of the larger fast twitch motor units. AND

To use some training methodology that produces high force across the tendon to cause adaptation of the tendon reflex mechanism over time.

a) MU fatigue AND b) tendon/reflex adaptation. The third thing of course would be c) protein degradation leading to hypertrophy. These would tend to correspond to a) max or heavy weights; b) max weights plus plyometric “fast” stuff and c) repetition.

[/quote]

I think a lot of the ideas presented are applicable in general. However, and I should have been more clear, I was ony speaking in the context of deadlifts (sadiv sets and coan-philippi are deadlift pregrams).

Having never done coan-philippi, I can’t really say anything about.

As for sadiv sets, the programming is very open ended. Basically after doing heavy work, you do speed reps. The only guideline is get at least 20 reps in 12 minutes. I used to load the bar with 60% 1RM and try to do a speed double every minute so getting all the sets would be 24 reps. If I was absolutely dying I would stop at 20 but if I got all 24 I would add weight the next week. But there’s no reason to use that rep range, you could do sets of 5, 10, ladder 1 2 3 4 5 5, whatever, as long as the bar moves fast.

The point is though, i’m sure I was fatiguing a lot of motor units programming deads this way, I could feel it; also I consistently made progress regardless of the heavy work that preceded the sadiv sets. In any case, it was the most efficient way I could add volume to DL day and still go heavy

You made a point that training this way may lead to a tendon reflex adaptation without fatiguing more high threshold motor units, but since I was talking about deads only, I don’t think that point is applicable because its a concentric only lift.[/quote]

Well, as you raise the bar off the floor, the tendons still lose their slack and stretch. If they stretch too far they shut down higher force contraction. Paused to dynamic, and relaxed to flexed are both plyometric in this regard, the tendons go from unloaded and semi-slack to loaded and stretched. Anything that makes them less deformable, or raises the threshold will allow the muscles to exert closer to their max force. Also in the deadlift, the support muscles become more loaded as the rep continues. the fast they can take the force, the less deformable/higher threshold the faster you can break ground and any sticking point.

132

Damn MertDawg, you’re dropping some serious freaking knowledge bombs broseph! keep it up dude, I LOVE learning this stuff.

133

[quote]frankjl wrote:

[quote]Mahoney wrote:
Like I said earlier, i’m not saying speed work doesn’t work for fun. I’ve done speed work the past few months. I’m pretty much playing devil’s advocate to make interesting conversation but people are too emotional about the subject. You like everyone else is overreacting to an opinion opposite of yours. I never “wrote off every method I’ve read that doesn’t work”[/quote]

I welcome criticism and different points of view on the topic. I was referring to 2 things specifically:

  1. You referring to him as “sandthebeach”
  2. You citing a very well-known and established lifter such as Mike T. (who doesn’t believe in speed work) despite the fact that he very recently came in 2nd to a very helpful, articulate member of our own forum (who does believe in speed work) and posted his thoughts on this thread.

I am not intending to over-react, but it seems to be like you’re targeting StormTheBeach with little regard to what he has accomplished as a lifter and what he has contributed to the members of this forum.[/quote]

While I agree with what you’re saying here… I don’t recall Mike T ever finishing behind StormTheBeach. When did this happen?

Edit: never mind, I see people were referring too deadlift at world’s.

134

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]burt128 wrote:
So what are people’s opinions on programming speed work for a raw lifter who doesn’t train Westside? I saw the mention regarding the Sadiv sets on deadlifts, but I’ve always thought the rule was speed first, heavy work second. Could one complete the working sets for the squat, bench and deadlift and then follow those working sets with two to three downsets at a lower percentage and with great speed? Perhaps that would be a way to train speed work without having a speed day.[/quote]

My understanding of sadiv sets was do heavy work first, then speed sets. The coan phillippi program also has speed work after heavy work. I don’t know what the rationale behind this is. However, having done sadiv sets before, I would not want to do heavy work after them. I’d be interested in someone explaining scientifically how the body is affected differently by doing speed work and heavy work same session different orders, or in different sessions[/quote]

Don’t you think that going heavier first may get your muscles firing optimally: synchronized frequency, highest threshold MUs turned on, and inhibitory reflexes supressed? Also stabilizers fully activated? Then “lighter” work is going to be faster, or you will be able to perform more reps. The question I have had about this though is whether the speed or reps gained by going heavier first is activating and exhausting more motor units, or if its just making you more reflexively efficient, and “elastic”, effectively reducing the muscular work needed to complete a rep. If the heavier load just makes you more efficient/elastic then the lighter work may not be any more effective at fatiguing motor units. Then again a) it might because it has raised muscle activation and b) even if it doesn’t it is still exposing the tendon apparatus to high force reps and causing adaptation that way.

An example that you might test is to work up to one or two singles at 90%+. Then use 75%, but don’t count reps but count TUT and don’t lock out. I bet that TUT to failure will not go up. That is my experience.

So what I’m saying is that heavy first may let your reps be higher force, but may not increase ability to fatigue motor units-it may change the pattern of motor unit fatigue which is good though.

The Josh Bryant article shows that peak power goes up after lifting max weights and for several minutes, but without EMG we don’t know if it is simply functional power output on the bar.

I think that it is important to vary reps, load, mass, degree of stretch, ROM, lowering spead, pauses, method of accomodating resistance and rest intervals between sets to assure that over time you are fatiguing a broad “corridor” of the larger fast twitch motor units. AND

To use some training methodology that produces high force across the tendon to cause adaptation of the tendon reflex mechanism over time.

a) MU fatigue AND b) tendon/reflex adaptation. The third thing of course would be c) protein degradation leading to hypertrophy. These would tend to correspond to a) max or heavy weights; b) max weights plus plyometric “fast” stuff and c) repetition.

[/quote]

I think a lot of the ideas presented are applicable in general. However, and I should have been more clear, I was ony speaking in the context of deadlifts (sadiv sets and coan-philippi are deadlift pregrams).

Having never done coan-philippi, I can’t really say anything about.

As for sadiv sets, the programming is very open ended. Basically after doing heavy work, you do speed reps. The only guideline is get at least 20 reps in 12 minutes. I used to load the bar with 60% 1RM and try to do a speed double every minute so getting all the sets would be 24 reps. If I was absolutely dying I would stop at 20 but if I got all 24 I would add weight the next week. But there’s no reason to use that rep range, you could do sets of 5, 10, ladder 1 2 3 4 5 5, whatever, as long as the bar moves fast.

The point is though, i’m sure I was fatiguing a lot of motor units programming deads this way, I could feel it; also I consistently made progress regardless of the heavy work that preceded the sadiv sets. In any case, it was the most efficient way I could add volume to DL day and still go heavy

You made a point that training this way may lead to a tendon reflex adaptation without fatiguing more high threshold motor units, but since I was talking about deads only, I don’t think that point is applicable because its a concentric only lift.[/quote]

Well, as you raise the bar off the floor, the tendons still lose their slack and stretch. If they stretch too far they shut down higher force contraction. Paused to dynamic, and relaxed to flexed are both plyometric in this regard, the tendons go from unloaded and semi-slack to loaded and stretched. Anything that makes them less deformable, or raises the threshold will allow the muscles to exert closer to their max force. Also in the deadlift, the support muscles become more loaded as the rep continues. the fast they can take the force, the less deformable/higher threshold the faster you can break ground and any sticking point.
[/quote]
Well then in the case of DLs how would you perform your experiment of doing 90% x 1 x 2+ followed by 75% for reps without full lockout? Where would you stop the pull? Would you do tng or full reset between reps?

But I’m still not convinced this all applies to deadlifts because even though there is of course force/stretching/lengthening of the tendons during a deadlift, its still not the same as a lift with an eccentric component; after all isn’t greater force required to reverse the path a moving object than to move an object from rest? In a squat this reversal of momentum is a reflexive pattern but in a deadlift, (and I don’t quite know how to put this), it seems to require more conscious intent to make the bar move

135

I have nothing to help with the thread, but I do have a point to raise.

Reading this thread has developed my knowledge of TRAINING much more than anything else I have read on this site, and is on par with seminars etc you can find on-line with Tate, Simmons and so on.

I just wanted to let everyone who has contributed to this thread know how insightful and informative this information is for me, and probably a lot of other lifters who train alone and don’t have access to this kind of knowledge. It’s good to see some great discussion on these boards again.

136

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]burt128 wrote:
So what are people’s opinions on programming speed work for a raw lifter who doesn’t train Westside? I saw the mention regarding the Sadiv sets on deadlifts, but I’ve always thought the rule was speed first, heavy work second. Could one complete the working sets for the squat, bench and deadlift and then follow those working sets with two to three downsets at a lower percentage and with great speed? Perhaps that would be a way to train speed work without having a speed day.[/quote]

My understanding of sadiv sets was do heavy work first, then speed sets. The coan phillippi program also has speed work after heavy work. I don’t know what the rationale behind this is. However, having done sadiv sets before, I would not want to do heavy work after them. I’d be interested in someone explaining scientifically how the body is affected differently by doing speed work and heavy work same session different orders, or in different sessions[/quote]

Don’t you think that going heavier first may get your muscles firing optimally: synchronized frequency, highest threshold MUs turned on, and inhibitory reflexes supressed? Also stabilizers fully activated? Then “lighter” work is going to be faster, or you will be able to perform more reps. The question I have had about this though is whether the speed or reps gained by going heavier first is activating and exhausting more motor units, or if its just making you more reflexively efficient, and “elastic”, effectively reducing the muscular work needed to complete a rep. If the heavier load just makes you more efficient/elastic then the lighter work may not be any more effective at fatiguing motor units. Then again a) it might because it has raised muscle activation and b) even if it doesn’t it is still exposing the tendon apparatus to high force reps and causing adaptation that way.

An example that you might test is to work up to one or two singles at 90%+. Then use 75%, but don’t count reps but count TUT and don’t lock out. I bet that TUT to failure will not go up. That is my experience.

So what I’m saying is that heavy first may let your reps be higher force, but may not increase ability to fatigue motor units-it may change the pattern of motor unit fatigue which is good though.

The Josh Bryant article shows that peak power goes up after lifting max weights and for several minutes, but without EMG we don’t know if it is simply functional power output on the bar.

I think that it is important to vary reps, load, mass, degree of stretch, ROM, lowering spead, pauses, method of accomodating resistance and rest intervals between sets to assure that over time you are fatiguing a broad “corridor” of the larger fast twitch motor units. AND

To use some training methodology that produces high force across the tendon to cause adaptation of the tendon reflex mechanism over time.

a) MU fatigue AND b) tendon/reflex adaptation. The third thing of course would be c) protein degradation leading to hypertrophy. These would tend to correspond to a) max or heavy weights; b) max weights plus plyometric “fast” stuff and c) repetition.

[/quote]

I think a lot of the ideas presented are applicable in general. However, and I should have been more clear, I was ony speaking in the context of deadlifts (sadiv sets and coan-philippi are deadlift pregrams).

Having never done coan-philippi, I can’t really say anything about.

As for sadiv sets, the programming is very open ended. Basically after doing heavy work, you do speed reps. The only guideline is get at least 20 reps in 12 minutes. I used to load the bar with 60% 1RM and try to do a speed double every minute so getting all the sets would be 24 reps. If I was absolutely dying I would stop at 20 but if I got all 24 I would add weight the next week. But there’s no reason to use that rep range, you could do sets of 5, 10, ladder 1 2 3 4 5 5, whatever, as long as the bar moves fast.

The point is though, i’m sure I was fatiguing a lot of motor units programming deads this way, I could feel it; also I consistently made progress regardless of the heavy work that preceded the sadiv sets. In any case, it was the most efficient way I could add volume to DL day and still go heavy

You made a point that training this way may lead to a tendon reflex adaptation without fatiguing more high threshold motor units, but since I was talking about deads only, I don’t think that point is applicable because its a concentric only lift.[/quote]

Well, as you raise the bar off the floor, the tendons still lose their slack and stretch. If they stretch too far they shut down higher force contraction. Paused to dynamic, and relaxed to flexed are both plyometric in this regard, the tendons go from unloaded and semi-slack to loaded and stretched. Anything that makes them less deformable, or raises the threshold will allow the muscles to exert closer to their max force. Also in the deadlift, the support muscles become more loaded as the rep continues. the fast they can take the force, the less deformable/higher threshold the faster you can break ground and any sticking point.
[/quote]
Well then in the case of DLs how would you perform your experiment of doing 90% x 1 x 2+ followed by 75% for reps without full lockout? Where would you stop the pull? Would you do tng or full reset between reps?

But I’m still not convinced this all applies to deadlifts because even though there is of course force/stretching/lengthening of the tendons during a deadlift, its still not the same as a lift with an eccentric component; after all isn’t greater force required to reverse the path a moving object than to move an object from rest? In a squat this reversal of momentum is a reflexive pattern but in a deadlift, (and I don’t quite know how to put this), it seems to require more conscious intent to make the bar move[/quote]

What makes the deadlift different, and also potentially more stressful I think is that in the squat you have gotten your body tight under load so especially your back is protected because of core pressure. In the DL, no matter how hard you try, and train for it, the body will just not get 100% tight without a load being applied, so when you first start to pull, you develop tightness as you raise the bar off the ground. This is why people talk about squatting down to the bar. Obviously the stretch reflex is greater if you lower the weight first. Theoretically there is enough energy stored in lowering a squat to almost raise it. If you drop a weight on a trampoline it will rise to the same level minus the inefficiency. Unless the weight is great enough to damage the trampoline.

So the squat is aided by putting work into the body on the way down, and by forcing a greater than voluntary level contraction, but I’m saying that the DL is still plyometric. In olympic lifting, the highest forces in any power sport occur during the second pull, but the second pull does not involve a lowering component, it just involves a slight unloading (don’t pull quite as hard for a hundredth of a second-a “slight” slackening) and then a reloading of the tendons.

Anyway, I don’t know much about the deadlift. Obviously reflexes help because your rep max on the dl is usually higher relative to your max than in other lifts. I know a lot of guys who can do 5+ at 90%. Honestly my basic model for training the deadlift is to box squat wide with different bars. I deadlift best close but build strength better wide. I used speed deads conventional, but today I would do speed deads WIDE.

But I didn’t actually post about the DL in the first place. I was just showing how the stretch reflex was still part of the equation.

Actually it does work for the DL anyway, in a sense. If you do a near maximal clean stance deadlift, then your power cleans will almost immediately be faster and with heavier weights.

You could also do band to band deadlifts. You run bands through the power rack catchers at two different levels and move the weight from one level around the bottom of the knees to one level just below lockout. Or you unrack a deadlift from the top position and lower to the bottom of the knees and back up.

I also wanted to mention a “deadlift” and or squat variation that I made using PVC tubing and a towel. I will actually post it in another thread called Zercher variations since I took some pictures.

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[quote]mertdawg wrote:

I also wanted to mention a “deadlift” and or squat variation that I made using PVC tubing and a towel. I will actually post it in another thread called Zercher variations since I took some pictures.
[/quote]

Cool, looking forward to that.

EDIT: = I see it’s in the main thread listing. nice.

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This has been a great thread, has the wheels turning more than anything else I’ve read in a while. I was going to log on this morning and wipe out my rant from last night, but saw that intelligent posters took it in stride. I come at this speed training from a different perspective, but there’s lots to learn on both sides. I got kids training for 900-1300 totals before collage, so a lot of advanced techniques just bog us down, but adding speed, and explosiveness is always on the table.

I recently been playing around with dedicated 12 week percentage blocks for the power clean, this seems to have carry over to all three big lifts. My point with the kids is that with proper basic programing, and effort we can average about 20% strength gain a year. When we start getting distracted with advanced techniques it takes away from our per% a year goal,. I just get upset when I see guys(kids) worrying about stuff they’re years away from.

Anyway, Strength dawg, and Mertdawg, awesome knowledge here, I’ve announced a plan to do a meet this year, it’s been 13yrs of coasting (being lazy) since last meet, I’ve become one of those out of shape coaches. Like to here what you guys have to say about rack squats, (starting from bottom) for building explosiveness in the squat, it knocks about 150lbs off my squat starting from the bottom, this makes me think there’s a weak area somewhere. Thanks

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[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
I wonder how much of this “no bands / chains” stuff is just folks trying to distance themselves professionally from Louie and West-side or training like that? I mean how is a guy going to make a name for himself if they are simply doing what another guy is doing, regardless of how effective it may or may not be?[/quote]

Given the strength curves of raw vs. geared lifts, I think there likely is some validity to this. Chains/bands mimic the strength curve of a geared lift. For raw lifts, whether doing speed work or max effort work, the key part is at the bottom where chains/bands don’t do much.

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[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Theoretically there is enough energy stored in lowering a squat to almost raise it. If you drop a weight on a trampoline it will rise to the same level minus the inefficiency. Unless the weight is great enough to damage the trampoline.

[/quote]

I don’t think there is anywhere near enough energy stored to “almost” raise a squat. Humans are far less efficient at storing energy than a trampoline. IIRC, with the stretch reflex, the energy stored is typically like 15-30%.