Opinions on Speed Work

Training Powerlifting
101

[quote]Mahoney wrote:
Oh so I misspelled his name. My apologies. I haven’t targeted him, I actually decided to ignore him when he said speed doesn’t magically start to deteriorate after 30 LOL. Mike T had an off day. Who’s the more accomplished powerlifter? I rest my case. [/quote]

So we blindly accept the “more accomplished lifter” now?

I’m not going to pursue this any further – I feel like there is too much butt-hurt going on (probably for both of us). Regardless, I appreciated your thoughts in this thread.

102

I think everyone should do some sort of “Speed Work” in some sort of way … be it bands and chains attached to a barbell using the Dynamic effort with 50-60 and 45-65 if geared for box squats/deadlifts and bench work respectively or 65-80 and 50-65 for squat/ dead and bench respectively if raw. Balistic Benching with roughly 45% of your 1rm for 9 sets of 3 without having the bar touch your chest using band tension. Or Olympic lifts and their variations. Body weight Plyometrics (not the one that you see every coach have some poor soul do for non stop rep upon rep upon rep but the more scientific, lower volume and period-ized version) or weighted body weight plyos will work just as well too. Bottom line I feel everyone can benefit from some type of speed work and depending on what you do, can be beneficial for flexibility as well.

Having said all this I am very biased towards the westside method of Dynamic Effort . I started off training as a bodybuilder and then got into powerlifting for a short stint . decided to try some strong man esque training (my body couldnt handle that stuff)… went back to Westside methods for powerlifting.

Thennnnnn I decided to try Olympic Weightlifting(utilizing wave loading techniques that focus on going up and down in weight multiple times to work on explosive contractions) (explosive anyway) and Gymnastics eque training with rings… Then after really sitting down and REALLY did some research on Louie’s Methods regarding DE work… for a Raw lifter, I came back to training using the westside template and havent looked back since.

An example of how Westside can be beneficial to not just geared but raw as well. My best bench was a 405lbs at a bodyweight of 155-167lbs (albeit it was done with a Max width Legal Grip , used a False Grip with Thumbs covering the rings with and elbows very flared. used 55,60,65% roughly for DE with band tension from a dead start off pins and utilizing a bunch of “special work” for shoulders CHEST and triceps and Bi’s… managed to screw my shoulders up with that 405 but hey that was a few years back and I no longer have an arch like the McDonald’s sign and just now getting back to being serious about a total.

Hope any of this rambling on has helped out anyone.

103

[quote]Mahoney wrote:
You men with female emotions need to remember something. I started this post and labeled it Opinions on Speed Work. I gave some opinions and people gave their opinions. Take your emotions elsewhere, if it hurts that bad to hear someones opinion that’s the opposite of yours don’t check into the forum. [/quote]

You presented a topic on here and got your side of the argument completely blown to pieces by people smarter, stronger, and more experienced than you. I have no problem constructively talking about any controversial topic (moving weights fast to be stronger being controversial is extremely confusing to me, but anyway…). You have reverted to some weird repeating childlike mantra spew that keeps going back to how Mike T. trains. Yes, Mike is a smart guy, an extremely strong and consistent lifter, more importantly, he is an all around cool dude and good human being. I know these things about him because I have competed against him and had numerous conversations with him over the last 6 years. I’ve also read his training manual and have a pretty good understanding of his system and his training.

That works for him. Anyone and everyone at his level knows what works for them. It’s not better or more right than what anyone else does. Yes, if he didn’t get a couple bullshit red lights, he would have out pulled me at World’s. I’m not pretending that my more perfecter than his training system is the reason I got gold. He locked out an 804 deadlift so fast that the judges got confused and had to redlight because they didn’t understand what they just saw.

On the other hand, a deep understanding of Westside and speed work put me into a position to win.

I don’t know why I feel the need to explain myself here because I rate what some random internet guy thinks of me on my “care scale” a little under how much I care for a turd right before I flush it.

Mike T. is stronger than me. His training system is extremely sophisticated and works for numerous people. But, when I am training hard and injury free, I a gain a little more ground every day. So, does my progress make my training better? No. Does his dominancy make his better? No. Nothing makes either better. The system doesn’t matter. Competing and getting better maters.

So, just do that and stop worrying about what other people do so much.

104

[quote]Mahoney wrote:

[quote]frankjl wrote:

[quote]Mahoney wrote:
Like I said earlier, i’m not saying speed work doesn’t work for fun. I’ve done speed work the past few months. I’m pretty much playing devil’s advocate to make interesting conversation but people are too emotional about the subject. You like everyone else is overreacting to an opinion opposite of yours. I never “wrote off every method I’ve read that doesn’t work”[/quote]

I welcome criticism and different points of view on the topic. I was referring to 2 things specifically:

  1. You referring to him as “sandthebeach”
  2. You citing a very well-known and established lifter such as Mike T. (who doesn’t believe in speed work) despite the fact that he very recently came in 2nd to a very helpful, articulate member of our own forum (who does believe in speed work) and posted his thoughts on this thread.

I am not intending to over-react, but it seems to be like you’re targeting StormTheBeach with little regard to what he has accomplished as a lifter and what he has contributed to the members of this forum.[/quote]

Oh so I misspelled his name. My apologies. I haven’t targeted him, I actually decided to ignore him when he said speed doesn’t magically start to deteriorate after 30 LOL. Mike T had an off day. Who’s the more accomplished powerlifter? I rest my case. [/quote]

He actually had a pretty awesome day. 760 squat, 440 bench (if I remember correctly), and an 804 deadlift that got red lighted for bullshit reasons. I hate contributing to internet dickery, but you didn’t even know who I was 4 posts ago. Now, all of a sudden you know every accomplishment I have ever made, at least enough of them to form some kind of opinion about me like this? I’ve never even met you in real life. I don’t understand how you could form any opinion, positive or negative, about anyone in this sport that you’ve never met.

People blame gear and a million federations for there being no validity in powerlifting. I think it’s shit like this. In no other sport is there more internet shit talking and ignorant, unfounded blanket statements like there is with the internet-only division of powerlifters.

105

Did we all just get trolled? It’s like arguing with a damn 12 year old here…

Oh, and how the FUCK do you do Westside without DE?
Westside=ME+DE+RE
That’s like a pizza without the damn cheese (I clearly have given up on this thread making these statements lol)

106

The biggest reason I have come to question Westside speed day as “axiomatic” (as opposed to simply practical) is that they/he keeps redefining it and changing it. At one point Louie has said that it was a plyometric exercise and the weight should be stopped an inch above the chest. Then recently he is using 16 x 3 but with a pause on a foam pad (which eliminates the plyometric component).

He says at one point that it is for practicing form, but then the form is altered to target the triceps. He says that 60% comes from shifting down the Russian tables slightly because in powerlifting the weights are slower (so the max is relatively higher), then he talks about a certain bar speed, but if it is “plyometric” then bar speed is not the key, it is acceleration in the stretch position and reversal.

Another issue is the calculation of loads. jay fry at westside barbell band speed work - YouTube Here I see guys using what looks like 185 and a doubled set of the thinnest bands. When I’ve tested these bands doubled I’ve measured 62.5 pounds at the bottom of the bench and 87.5 at the top for a pair, and they have them looped 2-3 inches higher up than I do, but they are spread out a little more (mine are 1/2 inch off the ground). Even if they are actually the next level up of bands they are 75 at the bottom and 105 at the top (minus a little cuase they ar higher).

If they are the 62.5-87.5 bands then we have about 247.5 at the bottom and 272.5 at the top. That is a mean load of 260.

Now a few issues with that. My max bench (raw) is 355. I move 185 with those double bands faster than some of those guys, and as fast as any of them. In fact, 185 with those thinnest doubled bands are right in my ideal training zone, but 260 is 73% of my max (a number that I actually set as the bottom of my effective range of about 73% to 83%). If I am moving a combination like these guys are then it would seem I’m moving it fast enough.

Also if these guys are using anything like a shirted max to estimate percentages then what the heck does 60% mean? Jim Parrish worked with one of the first guys to bench 1000 (can’t remember who right now) and he told me that raw, he can double in the upper 600s, maybe 675. If he used 40% of this 1000 (which may be over 1100 now) he would be using 60% of his raw max double. 60% of his competition max would be 89% of his raw double. Parrish himself told me that his best raw was 370 and his competition max was 530 and that he got a lot less from the shirt than some guys. Just half of 530 is 72% of 370. 60% of 530 is 86% of 370.

Again, my perception after basically 10 years of reading everything Louie Simmons and others is that he came upon speed bench work by accident, it was a misinterpretation of Russian research, (the Russians did NOT combine plyometric shock training with speed, they did not ever propose 70% or 60% for plyometric activities, they used light loads to reset the “neuromuscular apparatus” etc.) but speed days helped powerlifters for a complex array of reasons, and Simmons basically modified it over the years to keep it working with the changing lifters and equipment.

Is is purely something practical, but it is not axiomatic that “speed bench pressing” or squatting is one of the 3 methods of strength development. The Russians knew that more force could be exerted on a bar that was less than 100% load than 100% load, because 100% load a) shuts down force production via reflexes and b) force is greater with “some” speed than “quasi isometric” speed.

Plyometric work might help some people. Training to push hard through the sticking point might help some people. Training to push an already moving bar might help others.

107

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
The biggest reason I have come to question Westside speed day as “axiomatic” (as opposed to simply practical) is that they/he keeps redefining it and changing it. At one point Louie has said that it was a plyometric exercise and the weight should be stopped an inch above the chest. Then recently he is using 16 x 3 but with a pause on a foam pad (which eliminates the plyometric component). He says at one point that it is for practicing form, but then the form is altered to target the triceps. He says that 60% comes from shifting down the Russian tables slightly because in powerlifting the weights are slower (so the max is relatively higher), then he talks about a certain bar speed, but if it is “plyometric” then bar speed is not the key, it is acceleration in the stretch position and reversal.

Another issue is the calculation of loads. jay fry at westside barbell band speed work - YouTube Here I see guys using what looks like 185 and a doubled set of the thinnest bands. When I’ve tested these bands doubled I’ve measured 62.5 pounds at the bottom of the bench and 87.5 at the top for a pair, and they have them looped 2-3 inches higher up than I do, but they are spread out a little more (mine are 1/2 inch off the ground). Even if they are actually the next level up of bands they are 75 at the bottom and 105 at the top (minus a little cuase they ar higher).

If they are the 62.5-87.5 bands then we have about 247.5 at the bottom and 272.5 at the top. That is a mean load of 260.

Now a few issues with that. My max bench (raw) is 355. I move 185 with those double bands faster than some of those guys, and as fast as any of them. In fact, 185 with those thinnest doubled bands are right in my ideal training zone, but 260 is 73% of my max (a number that I actually set as the bottom of my effective range of about 73% to 83%). If I am moving a combination like these guys are then it would seem I’m moving it fast enough.

Also if these guys are using anything like a shirted max to estimate percentages then what the heck does 60% mean? Jim Parrish worked with one of the first guys to bench 1000 (can’t remember who right now) and he told me that raw, he can double in the upper 600s, maybe 675. If he used 40% of this 1000 (which may be over 1100 now) he would be using 60% of his raw max double. 60% of his competition max would be 89% of his raw double. Parrish himself told me that his best raw was 370 and his competition max was 530 and that he got a lot less from the shirt than some guys. Just half of 530 is 72% of 370. 60% of 530 is 86% of 370.

Again, my perception after basically 10 years of reading everything Louie Simmons and others is that he came upon speed bench work by accident, it was a misinterpretation of Russian research, (the Russians did NOT combine plyometric shock training with speed, they did not ever propose 70% or 60% for plyometric activities, they used light loads to reset the “neuromuscular apparatus” etc.) but speed days helped powerlifters for a complex array of reasons, and Simmons basically modified it over the years to keep it working with the changing lifters and equipment.

Is is purely something practical, but it is not axiomatic that “speed bench pressing” or squatting is one of the 3 methods of strength development. The Russians knew that more force could be exerted on a bar that was less than 100% load than 100% load, because 100% load a) shuts down force production via reflexes and b) force is greater with “some” speed than “quasi isometric” speed.

Plyometric work might help some people. Training to push hard through the sticking point might help some people. Training to push an already moving bar might help others.
[/quote]

You bring up some good points and I agree with your sentiments.People should never just imitate - they should try to figure out WHY certain methods work and then apply accordingly. Louie is what I call a tinkerer. Every year I reread his book several times and see what he’s up to on his website or youtube, not because he is someone who is very good at explaining the big picture - his writing is awful - but because he has observed what works with many types of athletes over a long period. It’s one giant lab. He always reminds me of something I have forgotten or gives me clues to what might work FOR ME. Geared,raw, natural,using,old, young,fast twitch dominant or slow twitch dominant changes your strategy. I have to work on speed AND strength almost equally. I have found speed to actually be more important as I approach 50. I have always done my speed bench CAT style - pause and explode - because it more closely mimics a raw bench press. I think this thread has run it’s course…I’m not sure it was a trolling, but since there has been literally NO defense of the concept that speed work is not neccessary I’m done…

108

[quote]Mahoney wrote:
It brings up the possibility that speed work is pointless for a powerlifter which obviously touches a lot of you peoples emotions.[/quote]

Oh, so now it’s a “possibility” that it doesn’t work… no one is emotional aside the fact that YOU haven’t said it doesn’t work, you simply keep saying that some other guy says it doesn’t work. YOU offer no real world experience so any frustration is directed at YOU, not at a program ‘we’ are doing or have done.

Ok, so I’ve been doing this for 20 years. You’ve still offered ZERO actual useful info for anyone. All you’ve managed to do is lose all credibility with all who have read this thread. You have, in my opinion, done Mike T a great disservice by your lack of substantial content here.

Thanks for wasting everyones time “mahoney”

109

[quote]Mahoney wrote:
Does anyone here think speed work is as important as Louie says? Looking at all the raw world record holders I don’t see one that used speed work. It would seem that if speed work was as great as it sounds it would be great for olympic lifting but the greatest results in olympic lifting have come from the Bulgarian method which consists of zero speed work.

I bought the science and practice of strength training by Zatsiorsky and it talks about a dynamic day but it sounds more geared for an actual athlete not a power athlete. For example, it mentions how if an athletes squat improved to 3 times body weight but his jump did not increase, his rate of force development was the limiting factor.

It doesn’t say anywhere that if his jump and rate of force development increase his squat will increase too. The book also gives a recommendation for an athlete training for maximal strength and doesn’t include a dynamic effort day. [/quote]

If you think about it, olympic lifts are speed work. By their very nature they are explosive in the same way as any DE work

After all, what is speed work essentially? You are doing a given exercise as explosively as possible. If you find yourself grinding too much on reps, your load is too great and you have to lower it or else you aren’t really doing speed work. With olympic lifts, you can’t grind at all, if the weight is so heavy that you end up moving it too slowly during certain critical phases of the olympic lifts, then you just miss the rep and drop the bar.

Isn’t DE and the westside system more applicable to geared lifters anyway? IIRC Louie wrote something about this somewhere

110

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]Mahoney wrote:
It brings up the possibility that speed work is pointless for a powerlifter which obviously touches a lot of you peoples emotions.[/quote]

Oh, so now it’s a “possibility” that it doesn’t work… no one is emotional aside the fact that YOU haven’t said it doesn’t work, you simply keep saying that some other guy says it doesn’t work. YOU offer no real world experience so any frustration is directed at YOU, not at a program ‘we’ are doing or have done.

Ok, so I’ve been doing this for 20 years. You’ve still offered ZERO actual useful info for anyone. All you’ve managed to do is lose all credibility with all who have read this thread. You have, in my opinion, done Mike T a great disservice by your lack of substantial content here.

Thanks for wasting everyones time “mahoney” [/quote]

The stupidity of some people in this thread is beyond fathomable. You say I keep saying speed work doesn’t work because some other guy said so. Also, StormTheBeach says I keep referring to how Mike T trains in childlike fashion. I want to know what imaginary world you both are living in. All I did was bring up the article. Not once did I say he was right, not once did I say I agreed with anything in it, not once did I refer to how Mike T trained and not once did I use anything he said against any of your points. What’s even more funny is I never said speed work doesn’t work.

As far as me saying Mike Tuchscherer is a more accomplished powerlifter than Mike Hedlesky (StormTheBeach), it was a jab back at frankjl because he mentioned how Hedlesky beat Tuchscherer which I felt didn’t have to do with anything. That much was stupid and immature. It get’s exhausting having multiple people come at you with BS so I admit I’m wrong there and apologize to StormTheBeach.

Also, StormTheBeach says my argument was torn to pieces by people stronger and smarter than me. First of all, what argument? This is a discussion. The only point I made is speed deteriorates with age so why is it that people like Efferding, Malanichev and Spoto who are aged between 36-45 are the best in powerlifting when they’re obviously not at their quickest or fastest. And to follow that up I said how Olympic lifting is a sport where speed is very important and they peak very young. The weightlifting men gold medalists from Beijing were between 19-27 with the average age being 22.5. I still think it’s a great point and didn’t get one decent response. Don’t waste your time now.

And as far as people stronger than me, who? I recently turned 23 and have a 495 raw with no knee wrap squat and a 610 deadlift at 173. That’s 3.5 times my body weight and only 60 pounds away from the all time drug tested world record across all federations. Oh and did I mention im only 23? How many of you can say the same? And for anyone that want’s to come up with excuses like im lying about my age, that’s not really me, or I didn’t do it in comp I PROMISE you if you follow powerlifting and are aware of the best in the world this will not be the last time you see my name and my numbers will be higher.

This will be my last post.

Mike Mahoney

111

[quote]Mahoney wrote:
This will be my last post.

Mike Mahoney

[/quote]

Wait, so now you’re back peddling saying you didn’t say all that? wow. classic, you should consider running for office. You’ll fit right in with all the other fucktards. You sure stirred a lot of shit for someone who didn’t say much, I’ll give you that. If trolling was a meet you’d be 9 for 9 in this thread. Congratulation on your assumed intelligence. It must really suck to have to deal with all us “dumb people”. At 23 you still have much to learn. Good luck in your lifting, whatever the eff style you do decide to use.

112

You guys are getting trolled lol

113

[quote]Mahoney wrote:

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]Mahoney wrote:
It brings up the possibility that speed work is pointless for a powerlifter which obviously touches a lot of you peoples emotions.[/quote]

Oh, so now it’s a “possibility” that it doesn’t work… no one is emotional aside the fact that YOU haven’t said it doesn’t work, you simply keep saying that some other guy says it doesn’t work. YOU offer no real world experience so any frustration is directed at YOU, not at a program ‘we’ are doing or have done.

Ok, so I’ve been doing this for 20 years. You’ve still offered ZERO actual useful info for anyone. All you’ve managed to do is lose all credibility with all who have read this thread. You have, in my opinion, done Mike T a great disservice by your lack of substantial content here.

Thanks for wasting everyones time “mahoney” [/quote]

The stupidity of some people in this thread is beyond fathomable. You say I keep saying speed work doesn’t work because some other guy said so. Also, StormTheBeach says I keep referring to how Mike T trains in childlike fashion. I want to know what imaginary world you both are living in. All I did was bring up the article. Not once did I say he was right, not once did I say I agreed with anything in it, not once did I refer to how Mike T trained and not once did I use anything he said against any of your points. What’s even more funny is I never said speed work doesn’t work.

As far as me saying Mike Tuchscherer is a more accomplished powerlifter than Mike Hedlesky (StormTheBeach), it was a jab back at frankjl because he mentioned how Hedlesky beat Tuchscherer which I felt didn’t have to do with anything. That much was stupid and immature. It get’s exhausting having multiple people come at you with BS so I admit I’m wrong there and apologize to StormTheBeach.

Also, StormTheBeach says my argument was torn to pieces by people stronger and smarter than me. First of all, what argument? This is a discussion. The only point I made is speed deteriorates with age so why is it that people like Efferding, Malanichev and Spoto who are aged between 36-45 are the best in powerlifting when they’re obviously not at their quickest or fastest. And to follow that up I said how Olympic lifting is a sport where speed is very important and they peak very young. The weightlifting men gold medalists from Beijing were between 19-27 with the average age being 22.5. I still think it’s a great point and didn’t get one decent response. Don’t waste your time now.

And as far as people stronger than me, who? I recently turned 23 and have a 495 raw with no knee wrap squat and a 610 deadlift at 173. That’s 3.5 times my body weight and only 60 pounds away from the all time drug tested world record across all federations. Oh and did I mention im only 23? How many of you can say the same? And for anyone that want’s to come up with excuses like im lying about my age, that’s not really me, or I didn’t do it in comp I PROMISE you if you follow powerlifting and are aware of the best in the world this will not be the last time you see my name and my numbers will be higher.

This will be my last post.

Mike Mahoney

[/quote]
It kinda looks like you hitched that deadlift

114

[quote]Mahoney wrote:

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]Mahoney wrote:
It brings up the possibility that speed work is pointless for a powerlifter which obviously touches a lot of you peoples emotions.[/quote]

Oh, so now it’s a “possibility” that it doesn’t work… no one is emotional aside the fact that YOU haven’t said it doesn’t work, you simply keep saying that some other guy says it doesn’t work. YOU offer no real world experience so any frustration is directed at YOU, not at a program ‘we’ are doing or have done.

Ok, so I’ve been doing this for 20 years. You’ve still offered ZERO actual useful info for anyone. All you’ve managed to do is lose all credibility with all who have read this thread. You have, in my opinion, done Mike T a great disservice by your lack of substantial content here.

Thanks for wasting everyones time “mahoney” [/quote]

The stupidity of some people in this thread is beyond fathomable. You say I keep saying speed work doesn’t work because some other guy said so. Also, StormTheBeach says I keep referring to how Mike T trains in childlike fashion. I want to know what imaginary world you both are living in. All I did was bring up the article. Not once did I say he was right, not once did I say I agreed with anything in it, not once did I refer to how Mike T trained and not once did I use anything he said against any of your points. What’s even more funny is I never said speed work doesn’t work.

As far as me saying Mike Tuchscherer is a more accomplished powerlifter than Mike Hedlesky (StormTheBeach), it was a jab back at frankjl because he mentioned how Hedlesky beat Tuchscherer which I felt didn’t have to do with anything. That much was stupid and immature. It get’s exhausting having multiple people come at you with BS so I admit I’m wrong there and apologize to StormTheBeach.

Also, StormTheBeach says my argument was torn to pieces by people stronger and smarter than me. First of all, what argument? This is a discussion. The only point I made is speed deteriorates with age so why is it that people like Efferding, Malanichev and Spoto who are aged between 36-45 are the best in powerlifting when they’re obviously not at their quickest or fastest. And to follow that up I said how Olympic lifting is a sport where speed is very important and they peak very young. The weightlifting men gold medalists from Beijing were between 19-27 with the average age being 22.5. I still think it’s a great point and didn’t get one decent response. Don’t waste your time now.

And as far as people stronger than me, who? I recently turned 23 and have a 495 raw with no knee wrap squat and a 610 deadlift at 173. That’s 3.5 times my body weight and only 60 pounds away from the all time drug tested world record across all federations. Oh and did I mention im only 23? How many of you can say the same? And for anyone that want’s to come up with excuses like im lying about my age, that’s not really me, or I didn’t do it in comp I PROMISE you if you follow powerlifting and are aware of the best in the world this will not be the last time you see my name and my numbers will be higher.

This will be my last post.

Mike Mahoney

[/quote]

I searched PLWatch.com but none of the lists you mentioned were on it. Oh, wait, you are talking about gym lifts, we should all be impressed with you gym lifts, in the PL section. That makes a lot of sense… continue plz.

115

So what are people’s opinions on programming speed work for a raw lifter who doesn’t train Westside? I saw the mention regarding the Sadiv sets on deadlifts, but I’ve always thought the rule was speed first, heavy work second. Could one complete the working sets for the squat, bench and deadlift and then follow those working sets with two to three downsets at a lower percentage and with great speed? Perhaps that would be a way to train speed work without having a speed day.

116

The problem with the discussion around speed work is that there isn’t a consistent definition of what it actually is. The only things that are consistent is that it’s sub-maximal (although even that is not always true since if you add in band tension some people do ‘speed’ work that is supra-maximal at the top) and that the reps are done as fast as possible.

Now, every successful lifter spends some time lifting sub-maximal weights. And outside of body-building, there isn’t much support for not finishing a lift as fast as possible. That means that everyone probably does ‘speed’ work.

As was mentioned, even Louie Simmons doesn’t seem to have a consistent explanation as to why speed work is done. Further, he seems to vary exactly how he programs it (that’s obviously not a bad thing).

So for me, the takeaway is that if you want to be strong you should sometimes lift sub-maximal weights and do so quickly. Obviously it’s more complicated than that, but not in a way that really deserves dogmatism.

117

I haven’t followed the whole thread, just first, and last page, but personally feel speed work is important for all athletes PLer’s included. Louie’s concept of speed work using bands and chains, seems to have great carry over for geared lifters, not so much for raw lifters. I think there’s a huge difference between raw, or geared lifting. I feel raw lifters and athletes in general get more carry over from static explosive work, such as weighted jumps and throws.

From my experience, putting work in on explosive jumps(high, or long) with a weighted vest, has led to bigger raw squat numbers, than investing the same amount of training time to speed squats with bands. My theory, based on observation,(not knowing much about geared lifting) is that the sticking points differ. Geared lifters seem to have sticking points further along in the lift, where as raw lifters need explosiveness right away out of the hole, hence static speed training, vs banded speed training.

Now before everyone attracts me, understand where my theory’s come from, not necessarily a PLing background. I train mostly team athletes, and we try to do at least one or two PL meets a year. These kids aren’t dedicated PLer’s by any means, but for the kind of training we do bands, and chains have proven to have little use, where as the static explosive training has proven invaluable.

The deadlift may be the one exception, where doing repeated speed work with sub max load (50-70%) seems to have great carry over to 1RM, but even this is really just another way of doing static explosiveness, especially from a deficit (2-4inch) These are my own theory’s from years of training kids, and trying different things, I’m not sure how they pan out against scientific studies, or real high level PLer’s, but it’s something to think about. I don’t feel that people take into account the big difference between geared, and raw lifters, and at least from what I’ve seen, the training should be totally different. 2cents

118

[quote]burt128 wrote:
So what are people’s opinions on programming speed work for a raw lifter who doesn’t train Westside? I saw the mention regarding the Sadiv sets on deadlifts, but I’ve always thought the rule was speed first, heavy work second. Could one complete the working sets for the squat, bench and deadlift and then follow those working sets with two to three downsets at a lower percentage and with great speed? Perhaps that would be a way to train speed work without having a speed day.[/quote]

My understanding of sadiv sets was do heavy work first, then speed sets. The coan phillippi program also has speed work after heavy work. I don’t know what the rationale behind this is. However, having done sadiv sets before, I would not want to do heavy work after them. I’d be interested in someone explaining scientifically how the body is affected differently by doing speed work and heavy work same session different orders, or in different sessions

119

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
I’d be interested in someone explaining scientifically how the body is affected differently by doing speed work and heavy work same session different orders, or in different sessions[/quote]

I’m guessing this article would explain it. Seems to be along this same thought process.
http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/powerlifting-articles/josh-bryant-bench-press-the-science/

I know I used to warm up for benching with reverse bands or board presses. Then I’d drop to straight weight. It would feel light and I could get more reps in. I suppose in a way you are calibrating your brain for heavy and then when it’s lighter it still exerts the same force for the lighter stuff. Jedi mind tricks. Funny thing is weight releasers have been around for years, which does the same thing more / less. Funny how things come back into fashion.

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[quote]burt128 wrote:
So what are people’s opinions on programming speed work for a raw lifter who doesn’t train Westside? I saw the mention regarding the Sadiv sets on deadlifts, but I’ve always thought the rule was speed first, heavy work second. Could one complete the working sets for the squat, bench and deadlift and then follow those working sets with two to three downsets at a lower percentage and with great speed? Perhaps that would be a way to train speed work without having a speed day.[/quote]

Here’s some ideas. It’s an article for squat power/explosiveness, but I’m going to give these principles a shot for my bench too.

http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=5499097