Opinions on Aikido?

Training
61

Aikido mostly sucks. I did it a fairly hard style for a few years. My falls and rolls (ukemi) improved. The body movement stuff is somewhat useful (tai sabaki). Wristlocks work fine – if you can pull them off. They require attacking a very small target and excellent control that most people don’t have – especially under stress. They do work on morons (I drove a way a bum with one, yay me).

The underlying assumptions of aikido about how people behave are stupid beyond belief. Especially if you get in with aiki-hippies.

Judo and BJJ are vastly superior grappling arts. I wish I did Judo the years I was doing aikido.

62

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Enders Drift wrote:
Yeah I just picked up Small Circle Jujitsu the book by Wally Jay as a small “business expense.” I really need to get a friend willing to practice with me though.[/quote]

I haven’t actually read Professor Jay’s book, so I can’t comment on the contents therein. But, I have got to train with several people who trained under him directly.

Like I mentioned in the post above, there are some key principles in Small Circle which need to be understood to really make the techniques work like they’re supposed to. I don’t know whether Professor Jay mentions them in the book or not though.

I’d really suggest trying to find a qualified instructor, or at the very least video instructional materials if you want to learn this stuff. Unless maybe you already have an extensive jujitsu background, in which case you might be okay.[/quote]

I’ve read the book and practiced the techniques and I found them to be fundamentally sound.

63

I’m still sticking with Ballroom Dancing for gym credit purposes only. But from a strictly training standpoint, my main problems with akido are:

  1. I am a fan of practicing as much as possible at “full combat speed” ie. live rolling in BJJ/Judo, MT sparring, etc. Sure some self defense stuff can’t be practiced (watch some Kelly Mccann stuff). But when a whole are (and I’m not saying all akido schools/instructors are like this) too dangerous to practice live I have a hard time taking it seriously.

  2. Lots of weirdos do akido. Sorry if you want to become an anime samurai ninja assassin trench coat mall ninja but… its kinda odd. I got into a drunken debate with a guy who swore his akido skills would easily counter my BJJ. I was slightly worried being as I had no idea if he had a samurai sword in his trench coat and he had spike studs in his boot grommets. Luckily the trench came off and i put a triangle choke on… game over.

I know for a fact that there is good balance work, fall training, leverage application and joint manipulation in akido but I don’t think its worth the pseudo american samurai bs is worth it. I would stick with Hapkido or small circle JJ if thats the kind of art you’re looking for. just my thoughts.

64

nice video sentoguy, just watching hurts… these oldtimers sure make it look easy.

65

[quote]bartonmlee wrote:
nice video sentoguy, just watching hurts… these oldtimers sure make it look easy.[/quote]

They sure do. Check out the rest of the videos in that series (from the same seminar) and you’ll see some other oldtime JJ guys as well (some admittedly better than others IMO) making it look easy.

66

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]wher0001 wrote:
I was around when Seagal first came out. He was the only Easterner at that time ever allowed to have a dojo in Japan. If you think Seagal is a puss, I suggest you do your research a little more or fight him at least once.

MOST MMA fighters are not at the top level in any of their respective arts. Some are high level athletes and yes some are World Champions in their weight classes at their style. Fine…but fighting for money and fighting for your life are different things.

The most respected Martial Artists will not fight for money and you’ll never see them in any sort of fight-for money venues. Some of them will even go so far as to kick those students out that do compete for money. It happens, beleive me.

It is not the style that you learn, it is how effective YOU are at using it. find the best teacher for any style in your neighborhood and learn from them. i don’t care if it is Clown-Fu (effective cause of the big shoes).

[/quote]

Soo…where does fighting for sport fit in? [/quote]

In his fantasy world, it doesn’t fit in at all…He’s one of those guys who likes to daydream about mythical fighting prowess belonging to real-life Mr. Miyagi-type sifus/senseis.

It’s a fun way to look at life, I guess.

67

[quote]deadgame1 wrote:

[quote]wher0001 wrote:
Put an Aikido master in with these MMA idiots and he will whoop up on them like a retard with stuper-strength.[/quote]

I hope you’re joking. If you need to take it for credits eh, do what you need to do. Seriously though have you seen how ridiculous that douche segal is!! imo judo break falls are much more helpful. I wouldnt take it way to seriously like some people unless you like wearing dresses and are into interpative dance!!

LOL how does an aikido master stop a double leg??? Mean muay thia kick to the head???a flying knee??? its the art of fighting without fighting???LOL!! IM not bashing if you enjoy it! Just questioning its usefulness…oh I’ve never seen an aikido master in an mma event or on a judo,wrestling,bjj matt or comp so I could be wrong buuuuut I doubt it[/quote]

well it all depends if your within the confines of the game that is mma. a real fight there are no rules the double leg is answered with a swift rabbit punch behind the ear or a vertical (illegal in ufc because its to dangerous) elbow to the base of the skull… not fun for the mma douche who probably started shit with the aikido guy.

any one can block a head kick and its one of the most telegraphed moves you can throw, any time kicking over 90 degrees your fighting gravity losing power and speed, in short he’d probably get out of the way or block grab counter throw… and a flying knee are you joking ???

68

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:
well it all depends if your within the confines of the game that is mma. a real fight there are no rules[/quote]

True.

See, here’s the problem with the way a lot of TMA’s and “self defense” systems think (not all, but a lot). They’ve never actually tried to stop a good wrestler double legging them (at best they’ve had people who are completely clueless of the proper mechanics just diving in head first at their legs, and usually no set up either), so they have no idea what they’re talking about.

Sure, a rabbit punch or “chop” to the occipital region, side of the neck, or behind the ear can work provided that they know how to sprawl correctly to stop (or at least slow down) the power/drive behind the shot/double leg first. It isn’t going to do you a hell of a lot of good if the wrestler is blowing through you and you find yourself crashing down to the pavement. Not only would you probably not have enough time to effectively strike to those areas, but you are also in a very weak mechanical position to deliver any power.

Same thing with the elbow. If you’ve got them sprawled out, then yeah an elbow to the spine or base of the skull can work well. But otherwise their position is going to be very upright and it’s going to be very hard to elbow them there; not to mention that the same problems regarding time and positioning mentioned above still apply.

There are definitely things that don’t fly in MMA that can effectively be used against a double leg. But, without the basic requisite skills that are taught in MMA (or the disciplines which it comprises of), it’s not very likely that you’ll be able to pull them off.

[quote]
any one can block a head kick and its one of the most telegraphed moves you can throw, any time kicking over 90 degrees your fighting gravity losing power and speed, in short he’d probably get out of the way or block grab counter throw… and a flying knee are you joking ???[/quote]

Head kicks and flying knees aren’t very practical skills for real combat, that’s true. But again, I think you are overestimating how easily one can defend such techniques. If it’s just some MMA fanboy throwing them, then yeah, probably pretty easy to get out of the way or catch the kick. If it’s somebody like Cro Cop throwing the head kick, then you’d better believe that you are going to have a much harder time dealing with it and it’s not going to be easily evaded or blocked.

Have you ever had a skilled Muay Thai fighter/Kickboxer try to kick you in the head full force when you didn’t know it was coming? I doubt that many aikidokas regularly practice full contact sparring with MT/Kickboxers in order to develop such skills. Those that do would probably not tell you how easy it is to avoid a good head kick.

69

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:

well it all depends if your within the confines of the game that is mma. a real fight there are no rules the double leg is answered with a swift rabbit punch behind the ear or a vertical (illegal in ufc because its to dangerous) elbow to the base of the skull… not fun for the mma douche who probably started shit with the aikido guy. [/quote]

As Sentoguy said, unless he puts you on your ass before you can swing on him. How many Aikidoka practice any striking at all, let alone putting a vertical elbow on target while being decked by a double-leg? Oh yeah, and in the real world you’re probably hitting asphalt, so I do hope you’ve done your breakfalls on a hard surface…with a 200 lb man driving you down and intent on breaking you.

But I would never throw a head kick in the ring either. I know I’m not that fast. You will, however, get your legs kicked out from under you, your ribs kicked in, hooks to the body, and uppercuts (with proper form) that will lift you out of your shoes. Do you train counters to these strikes, from a competent striker who stays on-balance when he throws them? The only strikes I’ve ever seen Aikidoka counter are the lunging bar fight punch, but feel free to correct me if you’ve brought in a trained boxer and practiced catching his hands.

70

i am by no means an aikido fighter i just dislike the all powerful mma fan who’s time watching TUF and bas rutten self defense videos has imbued him with flying knees head kicks and flawless take downs capable of ending a fight instantaneously… and as you said the counter punch or elbow to the take down requires proper body positioning and impeccable timing. im not implying that they are a flawless sure fire way to defend such a maneuver and to do so consistently would require a great deal of skill but i am saying the double leg take down isnt fool proof either, every technique has a time and a place, such as the head kick sure theres a time when such a move becomes advantageous or is the proper tool for the situation, this most definitely as you said depends on the practitioners proficiency in the technique. its something i once thought was amazing when i didnt know much. and ive seen countless mma fanboys having “ufc” fights with each other ( a hazzard of spending time in a bullshit beach town) attempt to throw a headkick they saw on tv, have never practiced, and with no attention to form that often leaves them on their ass.

aikido is by no means invincible but nothing is as someone said earlier another string on the bow? tool in the box, notch in the belt, porno mag in the drawer

id rather know it then not for perhaps the one time it helps

71

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:
i am by no means an aikido fighter i just dislike the all powerful mma fan who’s time watching TUF and bas rutten self defense videos has imbued him with flying knees head kicks and flawless take downs capable of ending a fight instantaneously… [/quote]

They’re no worse than the TMA fans who seem to base everything on theory rather than practicality.

As for downward elbows and the like, downward elbows weren’t always illegal. When there were barely any rules in MMA (called “NHB” back then), the excuse from TMA circles was that true masters of certain martial arts weren’t competing. With the eventual inclusion of new rules, more excuses come up from the TMA side.

Back to downward elbows…I’ve seen loads of events from all over the world, from back when downward elbows were allowed, and not once have I ever seen someone stop a take-down with a downward elbow. That’s a hokey theory on how to counter take-downs. Is it possible to do? I’d assume, but there are techniques with a much higher success-rate to counter take-downs with.

72

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:
[ a real fight there are no rules the double leg is answered with a swift rabbit punch behind the ear or a vertical (illegal in ufc because its to dangerous) elbow to the base of the skull… not fun for the mma douche who probably started shit with the aikido guy.

[/quote]

really? i’ve seen many people get double-legged in the street, and never seen anyone sprawl out on them. and usually once they get slammed, they’re usually stunned for a second…

one of my friends fought a high level wreslter (All American from the University of Iowa), and he drilled throwing a knee into a double leg for about 2 months. he couldn’t do it when they fought their MMA fight, and he’s an extremely gifted athlete.

i’m not saying MMA is complete, but there are some very good, and basic techniques in it. additionally, a MMA fighter has an idea of how his/her technique will work in a fight, as they’ve sparred for real…

a lot of what you’re talking about is BS. downward elbows don’t even really hurt, since your skull is so thick there, but it’s gonna screw up the dude’s elbow that throws it…

i do think that there are some tools in akido, but a competent MMA fighter, or wrestler/boxer will win most of the time.

my .02

73

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:

well it all depends if your within the confines of the game that is mma. a real fight there are no rules the double leg is answered with a swift rabbit punch behind the ear or a vertical (illegal in ufc because its to dangerous) elbow to the base of the skull… not fun for the mma douche who probably started shit with the aikido guy. [/quote]

As Sentoguy said, unless he puts you on your ass before you can swing on him. How many Aikidoka practice any striking at all, let alone putting a vertical elbow on target while being decked by a double-leg? Oh yeah, and in the real world you’re probably hitting asphalt, so I do hope you’ve done your breakfalls on a hard surface…with a 200 lb man driving you down and intent on breaking you.

But I would never throw a head kick in the ring either. I know I’m not that fast. You will, however, get your legs kicked out from under you, your ribs kicked in, hooks to the body, and uppercuts (with proper form) that will lift you out of your shoes. Do you train counters to these strikes, from a competent striker who stays on-balance when he throws them? The only strikes I’ve ever seen Aikidoka counter are the lunging bar fight punch, but feel free to correct me if you’ve brought in a trained boxer and practiced catching his hands.
[/quote]

good points

74

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:
[ a real fight there are no rules the double leg is answered with a swift rabbit punch behind the ear or a vertical (illegal in ufc because its to dangerous) elbow to the base of the skull… not fun for the mma douche who probably started shit with the aikido guy.

[/quote]

really? i’ve seen many people get double-legged in the street, and never seen anyone sprawl out on them. and usually once they get slammed, they’re usually stunned for a second…

one of my friends fought a high level wreslter (All American from the University of Iowa), and he drilled throwing a knee into a double leg for about 2 months. he couldn’t do it when they fought their MMA fight, and he’s an extremely gifted athlete.

i’m not saying MMA is complete, but there are some very good, and basic techniques in it. additionally, a MMA fighter has an idea of how his/her technique will work in a fight, as they’ve sparred for real…

a lot of what you’re talking about is BS. downward elbows don’t even really hurt, since your skull is so thick there, but it’s gonna screw up the dude’s elbow that throws it…

i do think that there are some tools in akido, but a competent MMA fighter, or wrestler/bower will win most of the time.

my .02[/quote]

you dont strike for the back of the head you strike for where neck meets head below the bump at the back of your skull i think downward elbows are pretty powerful and evidently so do the people who make the rules for mma and dq bones jones for throwing 1

75

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:
i think downward elbows are pretty powerful and evidently so do the people who make the rules for mma and dq bones jones for throwing 1[/quote]

The people who made that rule were a bunch of goofs on the athletic commission who assumed it’s too dangerous because they saw a demonstration of a guy breaking a block of ice (Or wood?) with a downward elbow…I guess they missed the parts where people break wood & ice with their bare hands.

76

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
There are some tools in akido.
[/quote]

Fixed.

77

I studied it for 3 months only. If you are looking for something to do until you practice judo I suggest What someone here said: ballroom dancing- for the girls.
I´m serious.
But if you really want to practice it, the style that is mostly practiced world over is of limited efetiveness in real life situations today (read about it in Black Belt magazine online). Steven seagal´s style is more efective but not very disseminated.
You will learn some usefull stuff and actually become kinder and more calm as a person, plus the breakfalls and the evasive maneuvers (tai sabaki) are very good.
But seriously take ballroom dancing or the like, take adavantage of college life, don´t be stupid like I was :slight_smile:

78

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:
[ a real fight there are no rules the double leg is answered with a swift rabbit punch behind the ear or a vertical (illegal in ufc because its to dangerous) elbow to the base of the skull… not fun for the mma douche who probably started shit with the aikido guy.

[/quote]

really? i’ve seen many people get double-legged in the street, and never seen anyone sprawl out on them. and usually once they get slammed, they’re usually stunned for a second…

one of my friends fought a high level wreslter (All American from the University of Iowa), and he drilled throwing a knee into a double leg for about 2 months. he couldn’t do it when they fought their MMA fight, and he’s an extremely gifted athlete.

i’m not saying MMA is complete, but there are some very good, and basic techniques in it. additionally, a MMA fighter has an idea of how his/her technique will work in a fight, as they’ve sparred for real…

a lot of what you’re talking about is BS. downward elbows don’t even really hurt, since your skull is so thick there, but it’s gonna screw up the dude’s elbow that throws it…

i do think that there are some tools in akido, but a competent MMA fighter, or wrestler/bower will win most of the time.

my .02[/quote]

you dont strike for the back of the head you strike for where neck meets head below the bump at the back of your skull i think downward elbows are pretty powerful and evidently so do the people who make the rules for mma and dq bones jones for throwing 1[/quote]

a downward elbow is nowhere hear as powerful as most punches…look at the physics. besides, you can only throw that angle is you’ve sprawl and stopped the takedown…in reality, a choke is quicker, and less likely to cause you damage from there…

nevermind.

79

Sentoguy,

I just finished watching a Wally Jay video I got my hands on specifically for small joint manipulation namely fingers. This also seems to be an integral element in his book. Does he do any more practical self-defense moves? Honestly with the exception of wrist grabs and collar grabs a lot of his stuff seems to be rather violent given the situation.

For example a lot of it is based on what to do if a person is pointing their finger in your face… thats not exactly the most threatening thing. I understand wanting to prevent it from getting to that next point but here in America if you make first contact off a finger point you’re going to have some serious difficulties explaining yourself.

“Officer I only broke his wrist because he pointed his finger at me! It was a very menacing point though!”

As I watch and read more about Wally Jay’s principles it seems pretty clear to me that Yeomtasul follows the same principles as far as lever and fulcrum.

I wonder if Kang Jun has ever met or studied under Wally Jay.

80

For every 10 people who train in aikido, 1 will actually “get it”. There are more subtle things going on than what you think you see. There are some core concepts such as timing, balance, and entering and redirecting an attack that are more important than the techniques. Just like every thing else, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. I trained at a dojo where we learned how to strike and if you did not deliver a serious attack you would get a kick in the gut or a bloody nose. Keep in mind not every martial art will work the same for everyone. I am 5’9" with a short reach, so I am not going to try to box someone taller with a longer reach. I also powerlift and hit the heavy bag, aikido works perfect for me. I have used it effectivly in several situations including one where a guy came at me with a knife. The thing to remember for all you guys who like to badmouth something you don’t understand, the biggest mistake anyone can make is to underestimate the other guy. Do your best, train hard.