[quote]pushharder wrote:
I’m going to try this again: JB and OldOgre, please show me how open carry in the other open carry states which I showed in the map way back yonder ^ has resulted in the mayhem that you two anticipate in MS and AL.
If you cannot do so then please point out what is different about MS and AL that will surely cause your predictions to come true.
Please reply.[/quote]
Answered already. Multiple times. You even quoted the answer. Matter of probability. More people with guns (including all the states that already open carry)/percentage of those people will be idiots/recent publicity means for the first little higher percentage of idiots than will ultimately be/ higher likelihood that idiot encounters situation where his being an idiot causes a serious situation. I have really said nothing about MS or AL being any worse than any other, only that they merely increased the sheer number of open carriers thereby increasing the probability that a situation will arise where something stupid happens. Also with it being new and over publicized, we probably do have a higher percentage of idiots open carrying than most places that have had it a while.[/quote]
[quote]pushharder wrote:
I’m going to try this again: JB and OldOgre, please show me how open carry in the other open carry states which I showed in the map way back yonder ^ has resulted in the mayhem that you two anticipate in MS and AL.
If you cannot do so then please point out what is different about MS and AL that will surely cause your predictions to come true.
Please reply.[/quote]
Answered already. Multiple times. You even quoted the answer. Matter of probability. More people with guns (including all the states that already open carry)/percentage of those people will be idiots/recent publicity means for the first little higher percentage of idiots than will ultimately be/ higher likelihood that idiot encounters situation where his being an idiot causes a serious situation. I have really said nothing about MS or AL being any worse than any other, only that they merely increased the sheer number of open carriers thereby increasing the probability that a situation will arise where something stupid happens. Also with it being new and over publicized, we probably do have a higher percentage of idiots open carrying than most places that have had it a while.[/quote]
OK, I get it: It’s never happened before (to any significant degree) but it’s bound to begin now.
Alrighty then. Very effective argument.[/quote]
Nothing would “begin”. I am talking about a single tragic event involving a open carrier and collateral damage.
Plus how many murders are committed every year by someone legally open carrying a weapon every year is an impossible stat to find. If a banger is walking around with his pistol showing all the time and has never been convicted of a felony, every person he kills is a murder by someone legally carrying a weapon. But those stats never show up as those are known bad guys.
After someone commits a murder, unless they are a middle-aged white guy or they say something about legally carrying (which would be a mute point if you had just committed a crime) no one reports about the guy open carrying and breaking the law. It is just one banger shooting the other. So I would venture to say that accurate crime statistics on all people who are legally exercising their right to open carry would be non-existent.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Plus how many murders are committed every year by someone legally open carrying a weapon every year is an impossible stat to find. If a banger is walking around with his pistol showing all the time and has never been convicted of a felony, every person he kills is a murder by someone legally carrying a weapon. But those stats never show up as those are known bad guys.
After someone commits a murder, unless they are a middle-aged white guy or they say something about legally carrying (which would be a mute point if you had just committed a crime) no one reports about the guy open carrying and breaking the law. It is just one banger shooting the other. So I would venture to say that accurate crime statistics on all people who are legally exercising their right to open carry would be non-existent.[/quote]
Look, it’s not happening. You can waltz around concocting gang banger murder scenarios all you want but folks open carrying in open carry states are not murdering people left and right as you suggested. Stop it, man.[/quote]
How do you know? Who says that it isn’t happening? If a banger walks around with his gun showing and has never been convicted of a felony then he is perfectly within his rights. Technically the Virgina Tech massacre was commited by someone exercising his right to open carry right up until the point where he decided to go somewhere he wasn’t supposed to and start killing people. Before that he was just a law abiding citizen legally carrying a weapon in a duel holster.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Plus how many murders are committed every year by someone legally open carrying a weapon every year is an impossible stat to find. If a banger is walking around with his pistol showing all the time and has never been convicted of a felony, every person he kills is a murder by someone legally carrying a weapon. But those stats never show up as those are known bad guys.
After someone commits a murder, unless they are a middle-aged white guy or they say something about legally carrying (which would be a mute point if you had just committed a crime) no one reports about the guy open carrying and breaking the law. It is just one banger shooting the other. So I would venture to say that accurate crime statistics on all people who are legally exercising their right to open carry would be non-existent.[/quote]
Look, it’s not happening. You can waltz around concocting gang banger murder scenarios all you want but folks open carrying in open carry states are not murdering people left and right as you suggested. Stop it, man.[/quote]
How do you know? Who says that it isn’t happening? If a banger walks around with his gun showing and has never been convicted of a felony then he is perfectly within his rights. Technically the Virgina Tech massacre was commited by someone exercising his right to open carry right up until the point where he decided to go somewhere he wasn’t supposed to and start killing people. Before that he was just a law abiding citizen legally carrying a weapon in a duel holster.[/quote]
OK, I finally get it. The VA Tech massacre occurred because Virginia is stupid enough to not prohibit open carry without a license. The murderer knew he could legally open carry so therefore he decided to commit his crime. (By the way, I believe the VA Tech murderer carried concealed so why are you using this example in a discussion about open carry?)
In MS and AL the concern is that there are other VA Tech type murderers waiting in the wings to commit similar atrocities in MS and AL as soon as it becomes legal to open carry there.
Gotcha. I think you’re gaining some traction with your argument.[/quote]
He was carrying concealed when he broke the law, however, earlier and in many photos he is seen with the guns in holsters. Just because he was concealed carrying when he committed the crime does not mean he wasn’t a citizen who exercised his right to open carry. I am still confused as to how they can say that people who open carry don’t commit crimes. How do they know? I mean sure law abiding citizens don’t murder people but murderers were law abiding citizens at some point. Any statistics regarding open carry has a fatal flaw of not knowing if the person was open carrying or not at the time of the murder.
I have never once said that open carry should be prohibited. I have actually said the exact opposite numerous times. I merely said that idiots carrying guns on their hips concerns me. You took issue with that. I also said that it is statistically possible that a situation will arise where tragic collateral damage is created by a law abiding citizen carrying a gun and that the more people open carry the more likely that situation becomes and that situation will be used by anti-gunners to further intrude on gun rights.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I have never once said that open carry should be prohibited. I have actually said the exact opposite numerous times.
[/quote]
Well, maybe you are against unlicensed open carry then? Is that it?
[quote]
I merely said that idiots carrying guns on their hips concerns me. You took issue with that. I also said that it is statistically possible that a situation will arise where tragic collateral damage is created by a law abiding citizen carrying a gun and that the more people open carry the more likely that situation becomes and that situation will be used by anti-gunners to further intrude on gun rights.[/quote]
As far as your statistics argument, if you’re going to introduce non-existent hypothetical statistics on what might be possible surely you would want to be intellectually consistent and consider what actually has happened, would you not?
The bottom line is open carry is permitted in many states and open carriers are not running around in those states committing crimes. Yes, serial killers do plan and commit crimes but it’s pretty damn unlikely that they will want to draw attention to themselves by open carrying.
So if you see a guy open carrying in an open carry state the odds are infinitesimally low that he is a violent criminal intent on committing a crime. [/quote]
I would say that most of the statistics on open carry crimes completely ignore crimes committed by people who were highly likely to commit a crime, bangers, drug dealers, just general thugs, because there is no place in a police report to fill out “he was legally open carrying the weapon when he shot that dude”. If crimes committed by people who open carry are not reported as such then of course the stats will be low.
I am not for the licensing of open carry either, said that also. Because that would be to great a tool available for those against the 2nd to rob gun owners of their rights. I did say at one point that you could insure somehow that everyone who intends to OC would take the responsibility of learning how to properly use their weapon seriously but that it would be impossible to mandate without unintended consequences and therefore shouldn’t be done.
The only thing I have said is that I find it concerning when someone whom I know for sure to be irresponsible with a weapon is walking around with a .357 mag on his hip that he considers an extension of his ego.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I have never once said that open carry should be prohibited. I have actually said the exact opposite numerous times. I merely said that idiots carrying guns on their hips concerns me. You took issue with that. I also said that it is statistically possible that a situation will arise where tragic collateral damage is created by a law abiding citizen carrying a gun and that the more people open carry the more likely that situation becomes and that situation will be used by anti-gunners to further intrude on gun rights.[/quote]
I am an idiot who carries the gun in front. I find it the best conceal position for me. Hip holsters work for fat people, skinny people should carry in the front. Nobody should carry in the back. It’s too easy for someone to grab if it’s not in your line of sight at all times.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I have never once said that open carry should be prohibited. I have actually said the exact opposite numerous times. I merely said that idiots carrying guns on their hips concerns me. You took issue with that. I also said that it is statistically possible that a situation will arise where tragic collateral damage is created by a law abiding citizen carrying a gun and that the more people open carry the more likely that situation becomes and that situation will be used by anti-gunners to further intrude on gun rights.[/quote]
I am an idiot who carries the gun in front. I find it the best conceal position for me. Hip holsters work for fat people, skinny people should carry in the front. Nobody should carry in the back. It’s too easy for someone to grab if it’s not in your line of sight at all times.
[/quote]
I want literally referring to the location of the carry. I was just saying idiots with guns and added some more language for effect. I actually carry mostly front myself as well.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I have never once said that open carry should be prohibited. I have actually said the exact opposite numerous times. I merely said that idiots carrying guns on their hips concerns me. You took issue with that. I also said that it is statistically possible that a situation will arise where tragic collateral damage is created by a law abiding citizen carrying a gun and that the more people open carry the more likely that situation becomes and that situation will be used by anti-gunners to further intrude on gun rights.[/quote]
I am an idiot who carries the gun in front. I find it the best conceal position for me. Hip holsters work for fat people, skinny people should carry in the front. Nobody should carry in the back. It’s too easy for someone to grab if it’s not in your line of sight at all times.
[/quote]
I want literally referring to the location of the carry. I was just saying idiots with guns and added some more language for effect. I actually carry mostly front myself as well. [/quote]
Oh, I know. I just thought carry location is a viable side topic.
I wonder what people prefer. If I carry on the hip, I might as well open carry 'cause it’s obvious I have a gun.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I have never once said that open carry should be prohibited. I have actually said the exact opposite numerous times. I merely said that idiots carrying guns on their hips concerns me. You took issue with that. I also said that it is statistically possible that a situation will arise where tragic collateral damage is created by a law abiding citizen carrying a gun and that the more people open carry the more likely that situation becomes and that situation will be used by anti-gunners to further intrude on gun rights.[/quote]
I am an idiot who carries the gun in front. I find it the best conceal position for me. Hip holsters work for fat people, skinny people should carry in the front. Nobody should carry in the back. It’s too easy for someone to grab if it’s not in your line of sight at all times.
[/quote]
I want literally referring to the location of the carry. I was just saying idiots with guns and added some more language for effect. I actually carry mostly front myself as well. [/quote]
Oh, I know. I just thought carry location is a viable side topic.
I wonder what people prefer. If I carry on the hip, I might as well open carry 'cause it’s obvious I have a gun. [/quote]
I feel the same. I tried the back pocket holster and will use in on occasion with my ruger lcr but its not my preferred (I think the LCP would work better for this carry position) I usually use a waistband or front pocket holster in the front.