[quote]elano wrote:
Yeah thats exactly my point. Say your a novice-intermediate lifter and gain 10lb of lean muscle and 10lb of fat over a 3 or 4 month period of eating in surplus. If you had visible abs around 9% you would end up around 13 or 15%. If your trying to stay in decent shape for dating fine girls and what not it makes sense to stay within a few months reach of a six-pack.[/quote]
You are pretty much always within a few months reach of a six-pack. Most competitive BB’ers take only about 12-16 weeks to cut down to contest shape (around 4-6% bf). If you are getting so fat that you can’t, then you are either not training hard or your diet sucks. No one here is saying to get morbidly obese.
But the point is… why go from one extreme to the other?
Do you think your progress will be as fast as someone who is able to do what I’ve suggested above?
Say you are driving a car and you need to get across town. You can’t speed because… well that’s illegal Do you the driver…
A) accelerate pedal to the medal as fast as you can and slam on the breaks to a dead halt once you’ve gotten over the speed limit, gas, break, gas break over and over
or
B) find a comfortable easy pace right near the speed limit and stay cruising the whole way
That analogy doesn’t even cover the fact that you will likely diet off some muscle on many of those cut down phases. Do as you wish, but don’t make the mistake of thinking you are growing just as fast as the guy who figures out how to get his gains steady while you are cutting back down the 5th time this year.
[quote]elano wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
GuerillaZen wrote:
elano wrote:
Short Hoss wrote:
Professor X wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
Arioch wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
One thing I’ve thought about is what about bulk/cut cycles where you bulk longer than previously stated.
Let’s say 6-8 months, then you cut for 2-3 months while preserving as much muscle as possible. Again, in theory sounds like a decent idea.
You gain let’s say 30 lbs with say maybe 5 being fat. Then you cut for 2 months losing the fat you gained plus a little more and then get back into gaining. You’ll be leaner and ready for the next bulk while having the best of both worlds.
Seems like it would also give your body a break from the constant bombardment of nutrients.
Again, in theory sounds decent, thoughts?
If you can gain 5-1 muscle to fat, why would you stop bulking?
Just to take a break from force feeding yourself and a change of pace. Not saying I’m going to do it, but I have contemplated it.
It’s always nice to have less body fat assuming you won’t look like a rail afterwards.
Your body will adapt to greater food intake over time and that current amount will no longer be “force feeding”. Stopping that process to diet down could very well keep you from adjusting to a greater food intake.
It helps to avoid thinking only short term. If my goal is to be bigger, allowing my body to adapt to a greater food intake would be desirable, not something to avoid.
Changes like that DO NOT happen in one month or less. If I had quit force-feeding after one month, I’d still be 150 and wonder what the hell was up.
I also get tired of these yo-yo bulking/cuts I see, and the phrase like “gives your body a break”. Do you seriously think your body will slow down or something after months of bulking? If this is the case, I’m a FREAK. Also, this shit isn’t linear.
Why the hell would you only spend only 10 months a year or less bulking? What’s the point in wasting the precious time you have? It’s not like you’ll be able to gain weight as you get older compared to your 20s.
WHY WASTE TIME?
How are you guys not turning into complete fatasses? What if your trying to bang fine girls for instance if your in college. In that case I think bulking/cutting cycles would be ok as long as your lifting bigger numbers each time. Just to maintain a decent bodyfat percentage like 7-10%?
It’s obvious when people have no idea what real bodyfat percentages are. 7-10% is VERY lean for the average person walking around. You probably do not even know anyone who walks around at less than 7%
I was thinking the same thing. Also, it’s pretty sad that you think that 7-10% bf is “decent”. 7% bf would be ripped. Heck, some BB’ers are 6% bf ON STAGE!
As far as fine girls, just go for the ones who like big muscles, or prefer the “full house” look. Don’t buy into the nonsense that women require that you be ripped to be attractive.
No one is holding a gun to your head and telling you that you have to bulk for long periods of time though. Maybe staying lean is a bigger priority for you than building muscle. There is nothing wrong with different goals. We’re just being honest about what will actually put on large amounts of muscle. If you aren’t willing to do what is required because it interferes with your primary goal(s), then that’s your choice.
First of all I am talking about being ripped up with some abs.
[/quote]
Yeah, I figured you were, so I was simply telling you that by trying to stay ripped up with some abs you are drastically prolonging your journey and are probably shooting yourself in the foot in terms of making muscular gains.
Like I said, if building muscle isn’t a high priority for you, no harm no foul. But if you are looking to actually make head turning progress, forget about the abs (for a while).
Well, when I read your post you had yet to clarify that you were under the false belief of what 7-10% bf actually is. So I hadn’t read that you were just throwing a number out there.
As far as the extra 10-20 lbs of fat, if it means that you continue gaining muscle mass, then yes it is worth it (if again building muscle is your goal).
[quote]
If your fine with 10-20lbs of extra flab on your stomach thats fine. Were talking about people who are trying to stay relatively lean. This could be for any reason like sports, bodybuilding, weightlifting classes, girls, whatever.[/quote]
Exactly, we are talking about people who’s primary goal is building muscle as opposed to someone who has a different goal. No one is judging you for not having building muscle as your primary goal, to each their own. We’re just being honest about what works if your primary goal is building large amounts of muscle.
As far as the 10-20 lbs of extra flat on my stomach. First, you seem to still think we are saying to get fat, or that a 10 lb gain of fat is going to turn someone into a fat ass. We’re not, and it’s not. 10-20 lbs of bf spread over the entire body will hardly be noticeable on a decent sized individual, especially if it results in 24-35 lbs of muscle gained, or even 10-20 lbs of muscle gained.
Coming from a guy that started around maybe 13%, and now is cruising around 15-16% bf… Getting girls is no problem. Often times, physique has very little to do with getting laid. I’m sure many here know this.
I personally have a hard time eating clean for a long time, I can usually only do it for a couple of months before I start eating dirty again.
Okay so you are weak-willed.
This argument is pointless.[/quote]
This is my opinion too. If you can’t even stay on a proper eating plan consistently than why should anyone listen to your opinion on diet strategies? Want to know the last person I’d ever let tell me how to get ripped?
A 400+ lb obese person who couldn’t help but binge frequently because they have no will power to diet properly long term.
[quote]bugeishaAD wrote:
Coming from a guy that started around maybe 13%, and now is cruising around 15-16% bf… Getting girls is no problem. Often times, physique has very little to do with getting laid. I’m sure many here know this.[/quote]
For sure man, physique has almost nothing to do with getting laid. I know a few of my encounters have been from being in shape - but I have friends that are in horrible shape and still pull quality ass all the time.
[quote]bugeishaAD wrote:
Coming from a guy that started around maybe 13%, and now is cruising around 15-16% bf… Getting girls is no problem. Often times, physique has very little to do with getting laid. I’m sure many here know this.[/quote]
[quote]elano wrote:
So what I know guys who are 130lb twigs and they pull fine ass.
yeah, im 175lb 6"1 and been lifting for 2 years. Those are real numbers and lean weight. Ive only been doing it right with compounds for 6 months tho, Im an intermediate. Unlike some of you all knowing I had to do some trial and error before getting it right with the big lifts.
It may come to a surprise to you that some people are “endomorphs” and naturally carry a high bf%. Those people gain fat very easy and have to work hard to loose fat. Its a fact that there are different body types.
I dont see the big deal about dieting for a month or two after adding 10-20lb of lean mass if you want to start off with a clean slate again.
I may only eat perfect 2/3rds of the time, but that extra bit of junk in surpluss is enough for me to add 3-5% bf.[/quote]
Lemme make sure I got this.
You are 175 pounds at 6’1 after 2 years of lifting, albeit 6 months correctly, were told, but in a month or 2 you will gain 10 or 20 pounds of lean mass after which you will diet down and start with a clean slate.
You ARE a beginner.
We’re all aware of the fact that some people gain fat easier than others and EVERYBODY who goes anywhere in this game learns by trial and error.
NOBODY eats perfect even if they stick to a diet 100% because there are ALWAYS some undiscovered factors that could be improved.
Discipline is a requirement for success. If you want to progress in the long run more than you want whatever gets you fat you will succeed. If not all the trickery and cycling every few weeks and so on will have you 5 years from now in front of the TV with a bag of fritos and a jug of coke.
What’s the big deal about dieting for a month or two after adding 10-20 lbs of muscle? Nothing man, but considering that it would take most people a year to gain that… well that’s not really the topic here is it?
The topic is 4 weeks of bulking with cutting phases immediately after. Let’s say the cutting phase is 2 weeks. Over a years time you are missing 4 MONTHS of gaining because the person “only ate perfect 2/3s of the time” and couldn’t be accountable for what went into their pie hole, or the lack of cardio when they knew their bodyfat was creeping up.
Add that over 4 years and guess what? A whole freaking years worth of training practically wasted. Who here wouldn’t KILL to get back one of their first few years of training and absolutely crush it with the knowledge they have now? Taking away a year(and more time as we keep going in training age) from someone in the prime of their gaining career is something they can never get back.
All those workouts… all those meals for 3/4 of the results(at best) is that good enough for you?
[quote]Scott M wrote:
But the point is… why go from one extreme to the other?
Do you think your progress will be as fast as someone who is able to do what I’ve suggested above?
Say you are driving a car and you need to get across town. You can’t speed because… well that’s illegal Do you the driver…
A) accelerate pedal to the medal as fast as you can and slam on the breaks to a dead halt once you’ve gotten over the speed limit, gas, break, gas break over and over
or
B) find a comfortable easy pace right near the speed limit and stay cruising the whole way
That analogy doesn’t even cover the fact that you will likely diet off some muscle on many of those cut down phases. Do as you wish, but don’t make the mistake of thinking you are growing just as fast as the guy who figures out how to get his gains steady while you are cutting back down the 5th time this year.
[/quote]
Great analagy. I see what your saying, but what about just cutting twice a year because you might have had a few bad weeks where you ate too much junk.
Do you guys acutally never go on diets to loose BF?
If not, I want to know step by step what to do to not gain any more bf on my current building phase because I wish I never had to cut calories again.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
elano wrote:
So what I know guys who are 130lb twigs and they pull fine ass.
yeah, im 175lb 6"1 and been lifting for 2 years. Those are real numbers and lean weight. Ive only been doing it right with compounds for 6 months tho, Im an intermediate. Unlike some of you all knowing I had to do some trial and error before getting it right with the big lifts.
It may come to a surprise to you that some people are “endomorphs” and naturally carry a high bf%. Those people gain fat very easy and have to work hard to loose fat. Its a fact that there are different body types.
I dont see the big deal about dieting for a month or two after adding 10-20lb of lean mass if you want to start off with a clean slate again.
I may only eat perfect 2/3rds of the time, but that extra bit of junk in surpluss is enough for me to add 3-5% bf.
Lemme make sure I got this.
You are 175 pounds at 6’1 after 2 years of lifting, albeit 6 months correctly, were told, but in a month or 2 you will gain 10 or 20 pounds of lean mass after which you will diet down and start with a clean slate.
You ARE a beginner.
We’re all aware of the fact that some people gain fat easier than others and EVERYBODY who goes anywhere in this game learns by trial and error.
NOBODY eats perfect even if they stick to a diet 100% because there are ALWAYS some undiscovered factors that could be improved.
Discipline is a requirement for success. If you want to progress in the long run more than you want whatever gets you fat you will succeed. If not all the trickery and cycling every few weeks and so on will have you 5 years from now in front of the TV with a bag of fritos and a jug of coke.[/quote]
More like 3 or 4 months of “bulking” followed by 2 or 3 cutting while preserving that mass.
Ok so I am a “beginner” by your deff. Everyone starts somewhere.
Do it and take pictures. Then you can make a thread in the beginners section. It will be the sticky telling people what not to do AND give concrete evidence.
I dont understand why there is so much information on bulking/cutting cycling if its so wrong. It seems that alot of people are having success doing things that way.
BTW you guys who are saying to eat, eat, eat and never diet, are yall on the juice?
[quote]elano wrote:
<<< More like 3 or 4 months of “bulking” followed by 2 or 3 cutting while preserving that mass.
Ok so I am a “beginner”.
Do you guys count calories?[/quote]
You are missing the point previously made by Professor X. Your metabolism will adapt to the higher intake and assuming effective training will become more comfortable with adding mass to itself. The human body does not want to get bigger and stronger.
It prefers equilibrium. You will have to force it to grow which doesn’t only mean muscle. Bone density, aerobic capacity, cardio vascular proliferation, connective tissue, CNS function etc, all will be profoundly effected by you weighing 50 more lean pounds than you do now.
If you keep stopping it right when it starts to get the message you’ll be limping along forever. I think Sentoguy or Scott or somebody already said that if you’re consistently getting fatter you are either not working hard enough or you’re eating too much. In other words if you actually have the need to cut in a few months you haven’t been doing things right, but you will be a bit soft while growing.
I haven’t made the slightest attempt to get leaner in over 2 years, but I’m not fat. I can see my abs though they’re blurry. Personally I don’t count calories, but I do know in ballpark fashion what I’m eating.
The fact that you copped to being a beginner so quickly shows at least me that you’re ego may not be as big an obstacle as if for some of these guys.
I deffinately eat too much sometimes. I can eat like 5000 cals or more in a day of healthy food if I didnt stop myself. I train balls to the wall every workout. Should I be counting calories and when i reach 500 over maintenance, stop eating? Is that the right way to do it? I am a complete fatass unless I make a conscious effort to watch what I eat. I am all ears because i find “cutting” the most anoying thing, going hungary all the time and what not.
Scott M hit it right on thei nail (as usual lol). Building muscle takes YEARS, and if you are eating clean, doing your cardio and timing carbs and fats, any excessive fat gain can be adjusted with tightening of the diet and manipulating the calories.
I am one of those people that gains weight (but also fat) rather easily. So what does that mean? It means I need to eat cleaner, cut my carbs lower on off days, and do 30 min cardio each morning 5 days a week. While my friend is an ecto and can pretty much eat whatever he wants. Boo hoo. If you want it bad enough, it shouldn’t be too hard to make a few sacrifices.
Do you the driver…