One Thing that Changed Everything

Training
121

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
I’m not scared of getting hurt. I just can’t help but close my eyes/flinch. I sometimes punch and turn my head slightly and close my eyes. It’s like I’m anticipating being hit. I’m trying my damnedest to not do it, but it’s like I can’t fight it.[/quote]

The “anticipation of getting hit” is fear. This fear of things flying at our face is a very natural thing and it never really goes away completely. However, if we train out bodies through repetitive stimulus and response to respond a different way, then we can guide this natural flinch response towards more tactically beneficial movements. In other words, that fear is present because you have not done your homework.

I agree with others that you should continue to spar, but IMO, the majority of your time at this point should be spent reprogramming your neuromuscular system through repetitive drilling, not freestyle sparring.[/quote]

Sento,

What do you think about using some type of default cover/guard for Blaze? If only to at least get to the point of “eyes stay open and no bad things happen”. I am thinking the “Crazy Monkey” or SHIELD type of deal might work well for him, but while I am a huge fan of having and using such things I don’t have your experience teaching boxing/kickboxing techniques.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

This is my natural guard. It’s a bit more relaxed when I’m sparring but when I turtle up it’s the form I take. Hands near forehead, with a small space in between for line of sight. I use my elbows/forearms to block/attack. The width changes depending on whether I’m wearing gloves or not. My chin is almost always stuck to my chest. My biggest issue is when I turtle up, I tend to look down at their legs, instead of in front of me at their chest or belly button.

Edit: Also, closing eyes like a dumbass.

122

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
This is my natural guard. It’s a bit more relaxed when I’m sparring but when I turtle up it’s the form I take. Hands near forehead, with a small space in between for line of sight. I use my elbows/forearms to block/attack. The width changes depending on whether I’m wearing gloves or not. My chin is almost always stuck to my chest. My biggest issue is when I turtle up, I tend to look down at their legs, instead of in front of me at their chest or belly button.

Edit: Also, closing eyes like a dumbass.[/quote]

Blaze,

That is pretty much what I would suggest, other then I would make it a point to actually have the hands ON your forehead and be willing to move them in sore of a “combing your hair” motion when needed.

Now bearing in mind that I am NOT a coach/teacher of boxing or muay thai; I suggest 3-4 drills that may help your specific issue. These are how I would approach it from a TMA/self defense position. If Sentoguy, humble, or LondonBoxer say that any of these would instill to many bad habits/are simply not beneficial for someone training to fight in a ring than theirs should be the opinions you defer to.

You will need a partner who is not a huge dick. Only the final drill will require a skilled partner.

1.)Stessor/Awfulness Inoculation:

Gear-Put in your mouthpiece. Your partner should be wearing gloves(maybe wraps as well if they can wrap their hands). If a second set of gloves is available you can wear them. For you smaller gloves are better(bag gloves are fine). For them, padding is better. Some type of timer/buzzer with a PAR setting. We want 20 seconds on the clock and then a buzzer. Kitchen timers are a low cost option. If you have a Smart phone there are several shooting timers that work ok and are free apps(I’m told. I don’t have a smart phone. I am a luddite.).

Drill-Stand/Crouch in a corner, or at least against the wall. At the start bell your partner starts punching(with some power, but no ill intent) and you just take the shots on your gloves and forearms. They can punch anywhere but the back of your head or your groin. Just cover, and force/concentrate on keeping your eyes open/not turning away. 20 seconds of hell. Rest for 45 seconds to a minute and repeat a few times.

This drill is about fucking proving to yourself that you can take shots provided you use a good shell/turtle/shield/cover. The strikes can be arm punches or “slapping punches”. A few hard ones thrown in are good. NOTE: You can actually have more than one partner throwing the shots at once for this one. Do this on enough occasions until you no longer want to curl up or close your eyes during this drill.

2.-A.)Conditioning a response and “Getting into the fight”

Gear-You wear a mouthpiece, wraps, and gloves. Your partner holds a mitt/pad and has one gloved hand. A timer would be great, set if for your standard round length.

Drill-You adopt that cover/guard position. Your partner steps into range and fires a single, straight punch to your head that you take on your guard/gloves/shell. Immediately fire a straight back into the pad. Depending on which hand your partner is firing with and your partners skill at holding pads you can be firing a predetermined punch(jab or straight), a 1-2, or a true cross. The skill of your partner will determine how “quality” this work is.

Regardless, the goal is to develop the feeling that “If they are in range, so am I”. Having to immediately deliver a fast accurate shot after taking one is going to make closing your eyes, or blinking, or turning away less fun. Instead of the cost being eating another strike, it is a missed opportunity to hit something. Hitting something is fun, and you WILL find ways to do it. If your partner wants you can switch back in forth who holds the pad and who punches. Pay attention to range as well.

2-B.)Gear-Variable. Your partner wears two gloves, minimum. Chest protection and a full face helmet are also good. A thai belly pad might be good as well.

Drill-This is a closer range version of drill 2.-A. Your partner moves/steps straight in and throws looping punches or hooks at head or body height. You cover and step inside. Depending on protective gear you can spike them in the sternum, xyphoid, or solar plexus with an elbow, head butt, or immediately start manipulating their neck by means of their face. The goal is to crash or forcibly take their balance. Less gear, means you have to take punches and still be “soft” in order to keep your training partner. Plenty of gear and you can go a little rougher.

Again, this drill is about going on the offense FROM your cover position. Regardless of whether you purposefully spike with an elbow, or just kind of cover and bump/crash you are hitting THEIR centerline and forcefully bumping them off balance by stepping in. The goal is to make your cover a launching pad instead of only a hole where you feel safe and awesome, right until you die.

You may or may not be able to use this to start a collar tie/clinch position. The thai clinch game is absolutely humble’s wheelhouse and if he says this is not applicable to that game than disreguard it or table it until such time as your interests run closer to where my experience/knowledge base lies.

With either of the 2.) drills, if you blink or fuck up, just drive on. These are goal oriented drills. In 2-A.) your goal is to hit and hurt. In 2.-B) it is to first use your cover as a sort of shomen ate and upset their balance, than to go on the offense. So your cover accomplishes the enter and break parts of the classic enter-break-throw(or injure, maim, or other wise be un-nice to) common to those of us whith black belts in gi-faggetry(I’ll send Ranzo a nickel.)

3.) Pad work. Done with a coach/feeder who can hold pads and is trying to lace your ace when you get sloppy. If you get into trouble/feel bad habits creeping in, relegate your techniques to the straight punches and possibly the clinch you drilled in the 2’s.

REPEAT: I am not a coach/teacher for muay thai, kickboxing, or boxing. Sentoguy, humble, and LondonBoxer have a massive amount of experience in that lane. I don’t. If they recomend against any of the above it woul be foolish not to defer to their knowledge. I have found the above to work with people who have issues with flinching from getting hit.

Regards,

Robert A

NOTE: I hope that helps, or is at least readable. Please ignore any and all grammatical errors. Somewhere during the course of reading this thread and typing all that out I ran out of scotch and am now drinking bourbon out of a coffee cup.

EDTA: Throw the punches directly from your cover. Also, Jim Beam Black is not as good as DevilDog Jim would have us believe.

123

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
This is my natural guard. It’s a bit more relaxed when I’m sparring but when I turtle up it’s the form I take. Hands near forehead, with a small space in between for line of sight. I use my elbows/forearms to block/attack. The width changes depending on whether I’m wearing gloves or not. My chin is almost always stuck to my chest. My biggest issue is when I turtle up, I tend to look down at their legs, instead of in front of me at their chest or belly button.

Edit: Also, closing eyes like a dumbass.[/quote]

Blaze,

That is pretty much what I would suggest, other then I would make it a point to actually have the hands ON your forehead and be willing to move them in sore of a “combing your hair” motion when needed.

Now bearing in mind that I am NOT a coach/teacher of boxing or muay thai; I suggest 3-4 drills that may help your specific issue. These are how I would approach it from a TMA/self defense position. If Sentoguy, humble, or LondonBoxer say that any of these would instill to many bad habits/are simply not beneficial for someone training to fight in a ring than theirs should be the opinions you defer to.

You will need a partner who is not a huge dick. Only the final drill will require a skilled partner.

1.)Stessor/Awfulness Inoculation:

Gear-Put in your mouthpiece. Your partner should be wearing gloves(maybe wraps as well if they can wrap their hands). If a second set of gloves is available you can wear them. For you smaller gloves are better(bag gloves are fine). For them, padding is better. Some type of timer/buzzer with a PAR setting. We want 20 seconds on the clock and then a buzzer. Kitchen timers are a low cost option. If you have a Smart phone there are several shooting timers that work ok and are free apps(I’m told. I don’t have a smart phone. I am a luddite.).

Drill-Stand/Crouch in a corner, or at least against the wall. At the start bell your partner starts punching(with some power, but no ill intent) and you just take the shots on your gloves and forearms. They can punch anywhere but the back of your head or your groin. Just cover, and force/concentrate on keeping your eyes open/not turning away. 20 seconds of hell. Rest for 45 seconds to a minute and repeat a few times.

This drill is about fucking proving to yourself that you can take shots provided you use a good shell/turtle/shield/cover. The strikes can be arm punches or “slapping punches”. A few hard ones thrown in are good. NOTE: You can actually have more than one partner throwing the shots at once for this one. Do this on enough occasions until you no longer want to curl up or close your eyes during this drill.

2.-A.)Conditioning a response and “Getting into the fight”

Gear-You wear a mouthpiece, wraps, and gloves. Your partner holds a mitt/pad and has one gloved hand. A timer would be great, set if for your standard round length.

Drill-You adopt that cover/guard position. Your partner steps into range and fires a single, straight punch to your head that you take on your guard/gloves/shell. Immediately fire a straight back into the pad. Depending on which hand your partner is firing with and your partners skill at holding pads you can be firing a predetermined punch(jab or straight), a 1-2, or a true cross. The skill of your partner will determine how “quality” this work is.

Regardless, the goal is to develop the feeling that “If they are in range, so am I”. Having to immediately deliver a fast accurate shot after taking one is going to make closing your eyes, or blinking, or turning away less fun. Instead of the cost being eating another strike, it is a missed opportunity to hit something. Hitting something is fun, and you WILL find ways to do it. If your partner wants you can switch back in forth who holds the pad and who punches. Pay attention to range as well.

2-B.)Gear-Variable. Your partner wears two gloves, minimum. Chest protection and a full face helmet are also good. A thai belly pad might be good as well.

Drill-This is a closer range version of drill 2.-A. Your partner moves/steps straight in and throws looping punches or hooks at head or body height. You cover and step inside. Depending on protective gear you can spike them in the sternum, xyphoid, or solar plexus with an elbow, head butt, or immediately start manipulating their neck by means of their face. The goal is to crash or forcibly take their balance. Less gear, means you have to take punches and still be “soft” in order to keep your training partner. Plenty of gear and you can go a little rougher.

Again, this drill is about going on the offense FROM your cover position. Regardless of whether you purposefully spike with an elbow, or just kind of cover and bump/crash you are hitting THEIR centerline and forcefully bumping them off balance by stepping in. The goal is to make your cover a launching pad instead of only a hole where you feel safe and awesome, right until you die.

You may or may not be able to use this to start a collar tie/clinch position. The thai clinch game is absolutely humble’s wheelhouse and if he says this is not applicable to that game than disreguard it or table it until such time as your interests run closer to where my experience/knowledge base lies.

With either of the 2.) drills, if you blink or fuck up, just drive on. These are goal oriented drills. In 2-A.) your goal is to hit and hurt. In 2.-B) it is to first use your cover as a sort of shomen ate and upset their balance, than to go on the offense. So your cover accomplishes the enter and break parts of the classic enter-break-throw(or injure, maim, or other wise be un-nice to) common to those of us whith black belts in gi-faggetry(I’ll send Ranzo a nickel.)

3.) Pad work. Done with a coach/feeder who can hold pads and is trying to lace your ace when you get sloppy. If you get into trouble/feel bad habits creeping in, relegate your techniques to the straight punches and possibly the clinch you drilled in the 2’s.

REPEAT: I am not a coach/teacher for muay thai, kickboxing, or boxing. Sentoguy, humble, and LondonBoxer have a massive amount of experience in that lane. I don’t. If they recomend against any of the above it woul be foolish not to defer to their knowledge. I have found the above to work with people who have issues with flinching from getting hit.

Regards,

Robert A

NOTE: I hope that helps, or is at least readable. Please ignore any and all grammatical errors. Somewhere during the course of reading this thread and typing all that out I ran out of scotch and am now drinking bourbon out of a coffee cup.

EDTA: Throw the punches directly from your cover. Also, Jim Beam Black is not as good as DevilDog Jim would have us believe.[/quote]

Bourbon is a shitty substitute for scotch, but other than that I think Robert A’s post is quality. The actual guard part is not how I approach the issue with fighters I train, but that is largely because I could never fight with a guard that high, and as a result don’t really appreciate fully how to make it
effective. There are many ways to skin a cat though, and all of Robert’s advice looks excellent. I’ve learned a few things myself from that post and have a fighter who may benefit from some of it.

Personally I feel a guard that high makes it more difficult to see punches coming, and obviously if that’s true it increases your chances of absorbing blows, even if it is on your arms. I think if you have to absorb blows, even on the arms, it should be a last resort, as it makes it much more difficult to launch any kind of effective offense with such a defensive mentality. I personally prefer to see a more relaxed stance than you show in your picture. I don’t believe you can fight with your chin almost touching your chest like that. I would also have thought that for Maui Thai it would make it more difficult to see and defend against kicks and knees to the body, but I am no expert there.

My advice would be that you followed Robert A’s methodology first, and then consider mine if you still feel in a couple of weeks that you are flinching and being surprised by the punches. I would like to see you working drills where you are practising making small shifts in your bodyweight to avoid getting tagged, or deliberately catching punches with the inside of your gloves.

124

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
This is my natural guard. It’s a bit more relaxed when I’m sparring but when I turtle up it’s the form I take. Hands near forehead, with a small space in between for line of sight. I use my elbows/forearms to block/attack. The width changes depending on whether I’m wearing gloves or not. My chin is almost always stuck to my chest. My biggest issue is when I turtle up, I tend to look down at their legs, instead of in front of me at their chest or belly button.

Edit: Also, closing eyes like a dumbass.[/quote]

Blaze,

That is pretty much what I would suggest, other then I would make it a point to actually have the hands ON your forehead and be willing to move them in sore of a “combing your hair” motion when needed.

Now bearing in mind that I am NOT a coach/teacher of boxing or muay thai; I suggest 3-4 drills that may help your specific issue. These are how I would approach it from a TMA/self defense position. If Sentoguy, humble, or LondonBoxer say that any of these would instill to many bad habits/are simply not beneficial for someone training to fight in a ring than theirs should be the opinions you defer to.

You will need a partner who is not a huge dick. Only the final drill will require a skilled partner.

1.)Stessor/Awfulness Inoculation:

Gear-Put in your mouthpiece. Your partner should be wearing gloves(maybe wraps as well if they can wrap their hands). If a second set of gloves is available you can wear them. For you smaller gloves are better(bag gloves are fine). For them, padding is better. Some type of timer/buzzer with a PAR setting. We want 20 seconds on the clock and then a buzzer. Kitchen timers are a low cost option. If you have a Smart phone there are several shooting timers that work ok and are free apps(I’m told. I don’t have a smart phone. I am a luddite.).

Drill-Stand/Crouch in a corner, or at least against the wall. At the start bell your partner starts punching(with some power, but no ill intent) and you just take the shots on your gloves and forearms. They can punch anywhere but the back of your head or your groin. Just cover, and force/concentrate on keeping your eyes open/not turning away. 20 seconds of hell. Rest for 45 seconds to a minute and repeat a few times.

This drill is about fucking proving to yourself that you can take shots provided you use a good shell/turtle/shield/cover. The strikes can be arm punches or “slapping punches”. A few hard ones thrown in are good. NOTE: You can actually have more than one partner throwing the shots at once for this one. Do this on enough occasions until you no longer want to curl up or close your eyes during this drill.

2.-A.)Conditioning a response and “Getting into the fight”

Gear-You wear a mouthpiece, wraps, and gloves. Your partner holds a mitt/pad and has one gloved hand. A timer would be great, set if for your standard round length.

Drill-You adopt that cover/guard position. Your partner steps into range and fires a single, straight punch to your head that you take on your guard/gloves/shell. Immediately fire a straight back into the pad. Depending on which hand your partner is firing with and your partners skill at holding pads you can be firing a predetermined punch(jab or straight), a 1-2, or a true cross. The skill of your partner will determine how “quality” this work is.

Regardless, the goal is to develop the feeling that “If they are in range, so am I”. Having to immediately deliver a fast accurate shot after taking one is going to make closing your eyes, or blinking, or turning away less fun. Instead of the cost being eating another strike, it is a missed opportunity to hit something. Hitting something is fun, and you WILL find ways to do it. If your partner wants you can switch back in forth who holds the pad and who punches. Pay attention to range as well.

2-B.)Gear-Variable. Your partner wears two gloves, minimum. Chest protection and a full face helmet are also good. A thai belly pad might be good as well.

Drill-This is a closer range version of drill 2.-A. Your partner moves/steps straight in and throws looping punches or hooks at head or body height. You cover and step inside. Depending on protective gear you can spike them in the sternum, xyphoid, or solar plexus with an elbow, head butt, or immediately start manipulating their neck by means of their face. The goal is to crash or forcibly take their balance. Less gear, means you have to take punches and still be “soft” in order to keep your training partner. Plenty of gear and you can go a little rougher.

Again, this drill is about going on the offense FROM your cover position. Regardless of whether you purposefully spike with an elbow, or just kind of cover and bump/crash you are hitting THEIR centerline and forcefully bumping them off balance by stepping in. The goal is to make your cover a launching pad instead of only a hole where you feel safe and awesome, right until you die.

You may or may not be able to use this to start a collar tie/clinch position. The thai clinch game is absolutely humble’s wheelhouse and if he says this is not applicable to that game than disreguard it or table it until such time as your interests run closer to where my experience/knowledge base lies.

With either of the 2.) drills, if you blink or fuck up, just drive on. These are goal oriented drills. In 2-A.) your goal is to hit and hurt. In 2.-B) it is to first use your cover as a sort of shomen ate and upset their balance, than to go on the offense. So your cover accomplishes the enter and break parts of the classic enter-break-throw(or injure, maim, or other wise be un-nice to) common to those of us whith black belts in gi-faggetry(I’ll send Ranzo a nickel.)

3.) Pad work. Done with a coach/feeder who can hold pads and is trying to lace your ace when you get sloppy. If you get into trouble/feel bad habits creeping in, relegate your techniques to the straight punches and possibly the clinch you drilled in the 2’s.

REPEAT: I am not a coach/teacher for muay thai, kickboxing, or boxing. Sentoguy, humble, and LondonBoxer have a massive amount of experience in that lane. I don’t. If they recomend against any of the above it woul be foolish not to defer to their knowledge. I have found the above to work with people who have issues with flinching from getting hit.

Regards,

Robert A

NOTE: I hope that helps, or is at least readable. Please ignore any and all grammatical errors. Somewhere during the course of reading this thread and typing all that out I ran out of scotch and am now drinking bourbon out of a coffee cup.

EDTA: Throw the punches directly from your cover. Also, Jim Beam Black is not as good as DevilDog Jim would have us believe.[/quote]

Those are all good drills.

A couple caveats though which will make them even more effective.

First, that guard position is sometimes referred to as “Earmuffs” or Binoculars" guard position. It can be a very solid guard and can make someone very difficult to really hurt (though it’s not terribly great in regards to head movement and does make seeing round line/hooking punches a little harder to see). A couple of simple concepts that maximize it’s effectiveness are:

  1. try to minimize your gaps; gaps provide opportunity to get hit, the less gaps in your armor the less chance that you’ll get hit anywhere substantial

  2. along those lines, try to place yourself into a position where you never have to move your arms or hands more than 4-6 inches in any direction to cover any one of your gaps. This makes your defensive movements very efficient and minimizes the chances of you really opening up to have to defend an incoming strike.

  3. to be honest you (Blaze) are too upright for your shielding/shelling/covering to work as effectively as it should. Your spine must be at least a little angled forwards of 90 to the ground in order to allow your body structure to effectively absorb the incoming force of your opponent’s strikes (and not your neck, which is one reason you are dropping your head/eyes; to better align your neck to absorb the punches landing on your arms). Consequently, this also puts you in a better position to generate power in your counter punches as well.

  4. try to use the lower 1/2 to 1/3 of the forearms (the part closest to the elbows) to absorb the punches and not the upper part of the forearms (part closest to the wrists) as this will place the humerus (upper arm bone) in a better line to support/absorb the incoming force of the punch (and again will take the stress off your neck).

  5. at first, try to keep the hands/gloves/forearms in contact with the head (whether it be the jaw/chin for body blows, or hairline/area above the temples for head shots) all times. This not only minimizes movement needs and creates less openings, but is also serves to stabilize/unify your body structure when you absorb the force. Remember that it is the violent shaking or spinning of the head/brain/brainstem that causes a KO. So the better you can unify/stabilize your body (including your neck/head) the less likely you are to “get your bell rung” and the less you will mind taking punches on your arms.

These are just very basic guidelines for the guard and shielding/shelling/covering. I can and go go into much finer details with my students when teaching this, but hopefully if you implement these you will notice an improved effectiveness and comfort/confidence when defending incoming punches.

I’ll add more about the drills when I have more time.

125

Cool. Thanks guys.

126

Ok, more to add.

I’m just going to refer to Robert’s drills by the their alphanumerical designation.

  1. while stress innoculation training is an important step in combat arts training, it should not be administered or undertaken before each individual is ready for such training. Generally speaking, we aren’t looking to make people “tough” (or at least that’s not what the really good coaches seek as their primary objective), but to make them good/skilled fighters. Don’t get me wrong, mental and physical toughness are important qualities to have as a fighter, but they take a relatively short time and are relatively easy to develop compared to high levels of skill.

So, before you start engaging in stress inoculation training, make sure that you are competent dealing with each of the individual strikes (ideally in a very static/structured environment, then a semi structured environment and finally an unstructured environment), then do the same with two punches, then 3, and so on until you can skillfully defend all punching angles at a slow speed/low power. Then, and only then should your partner start to increase the speed/power of their punches, and they should only increase to the point where you are still able to remain composed and technical in your defensive actions. If you ever become jumpy, start to flinch/turn away, start to anticipate their next move, or “check out”, your partner needs to bring the speed/power back down until this stops occurring.

You as the defender need to focus on a couple things to get the most out of this drill.
-You need to stay focused on the present. Do not get stuck in the past (if say you get hit occasionally, which you will), or anticipate/predict your opponent’s next punch/movement, but instead try to only concern yourself with placing your undivided attention on your opponent’s actions and the corresponding defensive actions that you must produce. In other words, you are only ever responsible for at most 50% of what happens in a fight/sparring match/drill, your opponent/training partner is in control of the other 50%, so it’s imperative that you pay attention to that other 50% because it will tell you what you need to do.

-always seek to push yourself with the drills (you should be in charge of how fast/hard your opponent’s punches are being thrown), but do not let your ego cloud your judgement into pushing beyond what you are currently ready for. In other words, you want to feel a little pressure/stress, but not to the point where your composure or technique starts to break down, even if your partner is able to do it with more speed/power than you are (it’s not a competition, you are both there to make each other better, but you both have to work within your limits).

127

2A) Good drill, can be used with all punches, it’s essentially just a “feed and counter” drill. What I’d suggest is to pick one “defensive timing” counter (like slip to the outside and return fire with a straight right cross over the opponent’s elbow joint as they attempt to retract their punch), and one “offensive timing” counter (like crouching slip their jab to the outside as you simultaneously throw your own jab to their body). Or, if we’re working off of the shielding/shelling/covering theme, then you could work either a jab or straight right (depending on which arm you shield with) off of their initial straight punch.

You can then repeat this process defending and countering against hooks and then against uppercuts (which is essentially drill 2B)until you’ve got at least one good “defensive timing” counter for each punch.

From here your best bet is to have you and your partner both gear up and have your partner start throwing punches at you (random angles, very similar to drill 1, which I would advise gaining proficiency in prior to undertaking this drill) and have you try to counter (on an actual target, not a pad or their gloves, in control of course) about every 3rd or 4th punch (but be unpredictable so that your partner doesn’t know when the counter is coming or develop bad habits like purposely leaving openings so you can counter them) while your partner tries to recover after their punches to avoid getting countered.

With this drill you should be successful most of the time, but not every time (because that is just unrealistic and signifies that either your partner is letting you hit them, or the two of you are not in the same rhythm/timing, which won’t transfer to actual application). If you are unsuccessful more than you are successful, then either you need to go back a couple steps and get your mechanics down better, slow down the speed of the drill so you can get the timing down better, or pick your targets/counter options better.

128

2B) This is another good drill when it comes to getting out of tight spots (like getting cornered or overwhelmed), and can be applicable to pretty much any striking environment (be it traditional boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, or even self defense/street fighting). There are several different methods of “crashing”/smothering/closing the distance from a shield/shell/cover position, but they all essentially serve the same purpose of protecting your primary vital functions while providing a solid structure to absorb and neutralize the force of incoming strikes to allow you to close distance into a trapping or stand-up grappling range. From there it is again somewhat a matter of preference and situational relevancy that will determine what path of action you take.

I would then suggest combining this drill with the extensions I have listed off drill 1A. In other words, now not only can you counter off of your opponent’s punches, but you can “jam”/smother them and clinch as well. This will very much improve your reactions if:when you get cornered/are getting overwhelmed by an opponent during sparring.

129
  1. Also a good general drill, but what I would advise is to instead try to simply develop good habits like:
  • “clearing” or repositioning after each combo you throw. As Miyagi say, “best defense no be there”. The tendency to lag “in the pocket” at the end of combinations (however long or short they are) is a bad habit that nearly all newbies (and to be honest even a lot of trained fighters) suffer from. If you can break this bad habit you will get hit and/or have to rely on covering with your arms a lot less.

-being ready to defend your opponent’s counter attempts off your punches/combinations. This should to a degree be improving with the other drills that Robert and I have outlined, but while hitting pads you can really seek to refine it and you can actually return fire with your own counters with more force (as well as land your own initial combinations with more power). So, have your pad holder call out combinations for you to throw (use the number system as it’s just easier to say for them) and then close the distance (it’s imperative that you do not get into the bad habit of “waltzing” into the pocket/not controlling distance prior to attacking) and fire your combination. Once the combo is finished have your partner throw one of two pre designated counters (or instance either a jab or straight right) that you must defend against and then clear/reposition out of harm’s way. Next have them throw 2 counters (still the same 2 punches but in random order) which you have to defend. Then 3, and finally 4. Finally do the same drill, but this time you can clear/reposition or counter after any of their attempted counters (this requires more control than the other drills as you will be actually hitting your training partner with your counters rather than their pads).

There are other very useful basic but very important drills that you can do with a pad holder, but these are two good ones. I’d suggest checking out Joe Lewis’s material or seeking out one of his higher level black belts if you want to learn more. You can find some stuff on youtube of course, but nothing beats in person training.

130

Sentoguy,

Thanks for cleaning up/translating those drills. I don’t think I did a great job of explaining them.

I have caught a fair amount of shit on this board for being firmly in the camp of making technique practice a priority over pressure testing most of the time. My reason for leading off with that drill is that Blaze said he is still flinching even when he gets hit on the forearms/gloves. I have used that drill to “cure” that kind of flinch because it boils down to just not flinching.

LondonBoxer,

My reason for liking such a high guard/cover position has more to do with the utility I feel it has in self defense/defense against criminal assault situations. I think the lack of seeing such covers being used frequently in high level boxing or kickboxing pretty much proves that if you are aware enough of what is going on there are better options.

I feel the default/cover has more utility when you are missing or have missed significant things. I think we both can relate to having things get hairy when someone has gotten “too close” or we “weren’t ready”. The cover is a way to go from “OMG…I need bad things to stop. RIGHT NOW” to being "in the fight.

Regards,

Robert A

131

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]pulphero wrote:

Try that wide swinging kick against a boxer from 18 inches away in a crowded night club. [/quote]

Crowded nightclub? No problem.

Two of your own demonstrate how.

Where’s your shot when I’m laying bottles and elbows in the top of your head?
[/quote]

132

Understood Robert. My thoughts regarding flinching is that if someone is flinching, then either:

  1. they have not had any quality foundational skills training

  2. they are going too hard in the drills/sparring they are doing for their level

  3. they are being tested by their coach under pressure in hard sparring to see where they need the most work so that the coach can pick the right drills for that trainee/athlete to hopefully remedy or at least improve those problem areas. IMO though, unless they have professional fight career aspirations or will definitely be thrown into a super high stress environment with very little time for training/preparation like a battlefield (and even then it’s debate able), this should not make up anywhere near the majority of their training time.

You have to develop skill first before you can be expected to demonstrate it under stress. So stress inoculation training must be preceded by skill training in an unstressful (or at least manageable level of stressful) environment. Trying to violate (on a regular basis, obviously you need to “test” them/yourselves every now and then to see what they have down well and what they need work on, as well as hiving them experience) this just leads to perpetuation of bad habits and a failure to ever really develop high levels of skill.

133

Thanks for the help, guys.

134

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[/quote]

Wasn’t that after a flying scissor takedown?

I get the point though.

Side Note:
Earlier I made a few observations with regards to weapons and being tangled up assholes to elbows, specifically about positions.

If you have done any work with such things do my observations agree with yours?

Regards,

Robert A

135

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Understood Robert. My thoughts regarding flinching is that if someone is flinching, then either:

  1. they have not had any quality foundational skills training

  2. they are going too hard in the drills/sparring they are doing for their level

  3. they are being tested by their coach under pressure in hard sparring to see where they need the most work so that the coach can pick the right drills for that trainee/athlete to hopefully remedy or at least improve those problem areas. IMO though, unless they have professional fight career aspirations or will definitely be thrown into a super high stress environment with very little time for training/preparation like a battlefield (and even then it’s debate able), this should not make up anywhere near the majority of their training time.

You have to develop skill first before you can be expected to demonstrate it under stress. So stress inoculation training must be preceded by skill training in an unstressful (or at least manageable level of stressful) environment. Trying to violate (on a regular basis, obviously you need to “test” them/yourselves every now and then to see what they have down well and what they need work on, as well as hiving them experience) this just leads to perpetuation of bad habits and a failure to ever really develop high levels of skill.
[/quote]

I agree with all of this. I have however seen a limited time spent doing a “just cover” drill to help a lot. For some reason a little bit of it seems to put people, with a specific flinching issue, in a better position to do the more focused work. In general I agree with your points above.

In fact, your words so closely reflect my doctrine in general that I am at a loss as to what happened that made me try the “stress” drill earlier on so that I even noticed it working. I just know that somehow I tried it with some students and it seem to help. They stopped having as big a “fear” response to getting hit, and then seemed to pick up on the drill progression much better.

My suggestion is for Blaze to do a LITTLE bit of work on that, until he can keep his eyes open for the whole 15-20 seconds. At that point he needs to do more focused, and lower “intensity” technical drilling.

I am not sure if the drill should ever make an appearance after that in training for in-ring/with a ref fighting.

Regards,

Robert A

136

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[/quote]

Wasn’t that after a flying scissor takedown?

I get the point though.

Side Note:
Earlier I made a few observations with regards to weapons and being tangled up assholes to elbows, specifically about positions.

If you have done any work with such things do my observations agree with yours?

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]
And this same MT based fighter, Silva, had to resort to grappling to win some fights.

137

Weapons use while in a grappling situation, particularly a “real fight” situation? Good luck. Anyone who says they would pull a knife or gun (if they had one) while grappling has never grappled. I have participated in training cops in weapons retention. We would basically start by having a cop, with an unloaded gun in his holster, try and keep one of us from taking it. We always got the gun. I can’t see what position you could be in to draw a weapon. Mounted? Try reaching your pockets. In someone’s guard? Again, try reaching your pockets. And this is not taking into account any control the opponent has on your arms or punches or elbows being thrown.

It’s as ignorant as the statements about using “dirty” tactics to defend against grappling. Like the grappler in the equation doesn’t realize it’s a fight so he will simply allow someone the freedom to poke his eyes out. These people don’t understand that a primary goal for the grappler is total control over the opponent’s body. When I am sidemounted on someone I have one arm under his head and the arm closest trapped between my knee and arm while driving my shoulder into his face or neck. The far arm I can easily control with my other arm. Any extension which would create space would only serve to isolate that arm which means: broken arm. All of those “dirty” tactics are more easily used by the better grappler. The Gracies already had fights in which they allowed their opponents to use those tactics if they chose and they didn’t work.

Of course, if you are dealing with two untrained people then who knows what will happen but that’s why some of us train: we don’t like the idea of chance.

138

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Weapons use while in a grappling situation, particularly a “real fight” situation? Good luck. Anyone who says they would pull a knife or gun (if they had one) while grappling has never grappled. I have participated in training cops in weapons retention. We would basically start by having a cop, with an unloaded gun in his holster, try and keep one of us from taking it. We always got the gun. I can’t see what position you could be in to draw a weapon. Mounted? Try reaching your pockets. In someone’s guard? Again, try reaching your pockets. And this is not taking into account any control the opponent has on your arms or punches or elbows being thrown.
[/quote]
In this example, YOU would be the one to draw. I am saying that the better “BJJ” or even “Sport BJJ” positions are also the positions that give a better shot at weapons access or thwarting the other guys attempts at it.

I think you may be agreeing with me. Or insulting me. Or both…I mean that is as good an option as any.

Agree. In fact I said so earlier. No free rides. One of the reasons that the “better” positions are “better” is that it is easier to hurt the other guy and harder for him to do it to you. The “dirty” tactics/techniques follow this rule. Doesn’t mean they can’t get you out of trouble against a “better” fighter, just that you are still behind the power curve. Of course you may opine that a “better” fighter is one that is proficient in both the “dirty” stuff AND the more conventional, tournament approved, jiu-jitsu. I wouldn’t argue that one bit.

[quote]
Of course, if you are dealing with two untrained people then who knows what will happen but that’s why some of us train: we don’t like the idea of chance. [/quote]

I just like the excuse to put on pajama’s and wrastle around…

Regards,

Robert A

139

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Weapons use while in a grappling situation, particularly a “real fight” situation? Good luck. Anyone who says they would pull a knife or gun (if they had one) while grappling has never grappled. I have participated in training cops in weapons retention. We would basically start by having a cop, with an unloaded gun in his holster, try and keep one of us from taking it. We always got the gun. I can’t see what position you could be in to draw a weapon. Mounted? Try reaching your pockets. In someone’s guard? Again, try reaching your pockets. And this is not taking into account any control the opponent has on your arms or punches or elbows being thrown.
[/quote]
In this example, YOU would be the one to draw. I am saying that the better “BJJ” or even “Sport BJJ” positions are also the positions that give a better shot at weapons access or thwarting the other guys attempts at it.

I think you may be agreeing with me. Or insulting me. Or both…I mean that is as good an option as any.

Agree. In fact I said so earlier. No free rides. One of the reasons that the “better” positions are “better” is that it is easier to hurt the other guy and harder for him to do it to you. The “dirty” tactics/techniques follow this rule. Doesn’t mean they can’t get you out of trouble against a “better” fighter, just that you are still behind the power curve. Of course you may opine that a “better” fighter is one that is proficient in both the “dirty” stuff AND the more conventional, tournament approved, jiu-jitsu. I wouldn’t argue that one bit.

[quote]
Of course, if you are dealing with two untrained people then who knows what will happen but that’s why some of us train: we don’t like the idea of chance. [/quote]

I just like the excuse to put on pajama’s and wrastle around…

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Good points from both of you and Sento as well. valuable reading for quiet reflection. One aspect that gets little attention on these discussions is this: Someone who has a crystal clear, savage mindset on killing you, at whatever cost to themselves is something that very few individuals experience, no matter what your style, if you dont have the mental strength to win at all costs, then you die. Doesnt matter if you are the world’s best striker, grappler, or combination of both, you dont have what it takes mentally, then you lose. Probably off topic, and, I apologize if it is, but, physical ability (fighting style) alone will not win fights againist that type of savage attack.

140

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Weapons use while in a grappling situation, particularly a “real fight” situation? Good luck. Anyone who says they would pull a knife or gun (if they had one) while grappling has never grappled. I have participated in training cops in weapons retention. We would basically start by having a cop, with an unloaded gun in his holster, try and keep one of us from taking it. We always got the gun. I can’t see what position you could be in to draw a weapon. Mounted? Try reaching your pockets. In someone’s guard? Again, try reaching your pockets. And this is not taking into account any control the opponent has on your arms or punches or elbows being thrown.
[/quote]
In this example, YOU would be the one to draw. I am saying that the better “BJJ” or even “Sport BJJ” positions are also the positions that give a better shot at weapons access or thwarting the other guys attempts at it.

I think you may be agreeing with me. Or insulting me. Or both…I mean that is as good an option as any.

Agree. In fact I said so earlier. No free rides. One of the reasons that the “better” positions are “better” is that it is easier to hurt the other guy and harder for him to do it to you. The “dirty” tactics/techniques follow this rule. Doesn’t mean they can’t get you out of trouble against a “better” fighter, just that you are still behind the power curve. Of course you may opine that a “better” fighter is one that is proficient in both the “dirty” stuff AND the more conventional, tournament approved, jiu-jitsu. I wouldn’t argue that one bit.

[quote]
Of course, if you are dealing with two untrained people then who knows what will happen but that’s why some of us train: we don’t like the idea of chance. [/quote]

I just like the excuse to put on pajama’s and wrastle around…

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Good points from both of you and Sento as well. valuable reading for quiet reflection. One aspect that gets little attention on these discussions is this: Someone who has a crystal clear, savage mindset on killing you, at whatever cost to themselves is something that very few individuals experience, no matter what your style, if you dont have the mental strength to win at all costs, then you die. Doesnt matter if you are the world’s best striker, grappler, or combination of both, you dont have what it takes mentally, then you lose. Probably off topic, and, I apologize if it is, but, physical ability (fighting style) alone will not win fights againist that type of savage attack. [/quote]
Training can build mental strength and confidence (although sometimes of the false variety). It can also train you to stay focused under pressure. Soldiers don’t go into battle having trained under the same exact conditions as battle but when the pressure is on the idea is that the training will kick in.