On Breakfast

[MAF14]

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

come on, isnt this common sense?

EDIT: wait what part of my response are you questioning exactly?[/quote]

The “look im saying the more cals/protein you put into your body para-workout will result in greater body composition as opposed to working out and having nearly ALL you calories outside of the para-workout-window.” part. I want to see some real evidence for that statement.

Digestion and absorption is NOT as simple as “eat it and BOOM it’s there!”.[/quote]

oh trust me i get that you dont just have a scoop of whey and instantly have 24 grams of protein pulsing through you but i do believe that it is BETTER than having food with a significant time lapse after training. the only “evidence” i have is my own experiences… also A LOT of people have reported similar findings. i hope you dont think i’m saying that it is the ONLY way, i just think it the better way.

i dont have any studies handy if thats what you’re asking. can you show me studies saying otherwise?

also i thought what i was saying pretty in line with what Berkhan was saying. tell me if i missed something but the following is an excerpt from this article http://articles.elitefts.com/...martin-berkhan/

(just below the picture of him with his arms crossed in a black t-shirt)
TF: Now you eat all of your calories in the eight-hour window following your workout, which falls later in the day, correct?

MB: Yes but you could work out any time during the day and then have your eight-hour feeding window after your workout.

TF: What about the person who needs to workout in the morning before work, kids, family, and traffic? Is this simply not the approach for them?

MB: Try it and youâ??ll soon figure that out by yourself. However, for clients working out in the early morning, I may approach the issue a bit differently. That is I might not go with an eight-hour feeding window directly post-workout. But what Iâ??m doing more specifically, Iâ??ll save for the book.

so am i missing something?

[Bricknyce]

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

come on, isnt this common sense?

EDIT: wait what part of my response are you questioning exactly?[/quote]

The “look im saying the more cals/protein you put into your body para-workout will result in greater body composition as opposed to working out and having nearly ALL you calories outside of the para-workout-window.” part. I want to see some real evidence for that statement.

Digestion and absorption is NOT as simple as “eat it and BOOM it’s there!”.[/quote]

This is true, and Ori Hofmekler, points this out on his site. This stuff isn’t that simple.

[Bricknyce]

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

come on, isnt this common sense?

EDIT: wait what part of my response are you questioning exactly?[/quote]

The “look im saying the more cals/protein you put into your body para-workout will result in greater body composition as opposed to working out and having nearly ALL you calories outside of the para-workout-window.” part. I want to see some real evidence for that statement.

Digestion and absorption is NOT as simple as “eat it and BOOM it’s there!”.[/quote]

oh trust me i get that you dont just have a scoop of whey and instantly have 24 grams of protein pulsing through you but i do believe that it is BETTER than having food with a significant time lapse after training. the only “evidence” i have is my own experiences… also A LOT of people have reported similar findings. i hope you dont think i’m saying that it is the ONLY way, i just think it the better way.

i dont have any studies handy if thats what you’re asking. can you show me studies saying otherwise?

also i thought what i was saying pretty in line with what Berkhan was saying. tell me if i missed something but the following is an excerpt from this article http://articles.elitefts.com/...martin-berkhan/

(just below the picture of him with his arms crossed in a black t-shirt)
TF: Now you eat all of your calories in the eight-hour window following your workout, which falls later in the day, correct?

MB: Yes but you could work out any time during the day and then have your eight-hour feeding window after your workout.

TF: What about the person who needs to workout in the morning before work, kids, family, and traffic? Is this simply not the approach for them?

MB: Try it and youâ??ll soon figure that out by yourself. However, for clients working out in the early morning, I may approach the issue a bit differently. That is I might not go with an eight-hour feeding window directly post-workout. But what Iâ??m doing more specifically, Iâ??ll save for the book.

so am i missing something?[/quote]

If I recall correctly from his website, if you train earlier, you just have the feeding phase earlier in the day. So you’re fasting more during waking hours than someone who works out later. That’s how I’d do it with the info I’ve gotten from his site.

And although I don’t think digestion and absorption is so simple, I’m still inclined to go with peri-workout meals and drinks.

[Bricknyce]

[quote]forbes wrote:
@Brick

Do you think 13 grams of protein before and after training is sufficient to prevent excessive protein degredation? I know its not going to optimize protein synthesis or anything, but is it enough to prevent excessive muscular breakdown? Of course I’d be consuming sufficient nutrients during my feeding window.

@Stronghold

you seem to have some views yourself. So whats your take on my above question to Brick? I’d also value your opinion.[/quote]

Peri-workout has usually been based on size and goal. So 13 grams might not be optimal, but I’ve seen evidence that it’s enough to have some protein-synthetic effect.

[Bricknyce]

I don’t KNOW if I’m going to try IF, because I have the same problem in the morning; it feels like I NEED food in the morning. But I’m not going back to six meals a day. Can’t take it anymore!

[Stronghold]

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

oh trust me i get that you dont just have a scoop of whey and instantly have 24 grams of protein pulsing through you but i do believe that it is BETTER than having food with a significant time lapse after training. the only “evidence” i have is my own experiences…

also A LOT of people have reported similar findings. i hope you dont think i’m saying that it is the ONLY way, i just think it the better way.

i dont have any studies handy if thats what you’re asking. can you show me studies saying otherwise?
[/quote]

Without facts this conversation is pointless. My argument is based on established facts and the reasoning extrapolated from those facts. You are the one that is making a claim not already supported by the literature so the burden of proof is on you.

It is established that individuals eating frequent, high protein meals have elevated blood levels of amino acids for a number of hours after the feeding. As a matter of fact, no significant proteolysis occurs within 16 hours of a previous high protein feeding.

You don’t need to chug protein during a workout because 1) that protein is going to sit in your gut for an amount of time that is long enough that you will already be done training before it is digested and absorbed

and 2) that protein isn’t going to necessarily spike blood levels of amino acids beyond the point at which they would already be elevated by high protein meals consumed previously in the day (assuming that the meals are consumed in reasonable proximity to training).

All of the research that I have seen regarding supplemental “fast acting” protein sources consumed pre or peri-workout have involved some significant degree of fasting prior to ingestion so unless you are training 12+ hours after your last feeding, the relevance of this research is somewhat mitigated.

Of course, if one is utilizing an intermittent fasting approach, the rules, possibilities, and advantages of para-workout nutrition change entirely. I would be VERY interested in seeing some case studies of individuals utilizing something like the Anaconda Protocol with an intermittent fasting approach.

The pre-workout feedings coupled with rather large nutrient intake during the actual training session falls in line fairly nicely with the guidelines given by Berkhan.

As a matter of fact, if Biotest wanted to send me some research supplies, I’d gladly try it out myself and offer a full report on the efficacy of such an application, possibly in the form of an article. TC, Brian, let me know

[gabex]

I think 6 meals a day (or multiple meals, more than 3) is necessary for dieting or bulking. For example, if eating less total cals in a day, I’d want more frequent protein feedings, but in smaller meals/portions.

And if I’m bulking, trying to get in a massive calories in 3 meals isn’t going to be easy either. However, for maintenance, I think 3 meals works just fine, maybe a snack in between, and whatever I am doing for my pre/para/post workout nutrition.

[MAF14]

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

oh trust me i get that you dont just have a scoop of whey and instantly have 24 grams of protein pulsing through you but i do believe that it is BETTER than having food with a significant time lapse after training. the only “evidence” i have is my own experiences…

also A LOT of people have reported similar findings. i hope you dont think i’m saying that it is the ONLY way, i just think it the better way.

i dont have any studies handy if thats what you’re asking. can you show me studies saying otherwise?
[/quote]

Without facts this conversation is pointless. My argument is based on established facts and the reasoning extrapolated from those facts. You are the one that is making a claim not already supported by the literature so the burden of proof is on you.

It is established that individuals eating frequent, high protein meals have elevated blood levels of amino acids for a number of hours after the feeding. As a matter of fact, no significant proteolysis occurs within 16 hours of a previous high protein feeding.

You don’t need to chug protein during a workout because 1) that protein is going to sit in your gut for an amount of time that is long enough that you will already be done training before it is digested and absorbed

and 2) that protein isn’t going to necessarily spike blood levels of amino acids beyond the point at which they would already be elevated by high protein meals consumed previously in the day (assuming that the meals are consumed in reasonable proximity to training).

All of the research that I have seen regarding supplemental “fast acting” protein sources consumed pre or peri-workout have involved some significant degree of fasting prior to ingestion so unless you are training 12+ hours after your last feeding, the relevance of this research is somewhat mitigated.

Of course, if one is utilizing an intermittent fasting approach, the rules, possibilities, and advantages of para-workout nutrition change entirely. I would be VERY interested in seeing some case studies of individuals utilizing something like the Anaconda Protocol with an intermittent fasting approach.

The pre-workout feedings coupled with rather large nutrient intake during the actual training session falls in line fairly nicely with the guidelines given by Berkhan.

As a matter of fact, if Biotest wanted to send me some research supplies, I’d gladly try it out myself and offer a full report on the efficacy of such an application, possibly in the form of an article. TC, Brian, let me know :)[/quote]

im not even really sure what this argument is about. forbes said he was going to workout in the morning, only have a scoop of protein before/during his workout, fast until a certain time, then consume his calories. i just said i thought that was dumb and that the better approach would be to eat around his workout and then fast afterwards…

you claimed that i was going against Berkhan but i was repeating exactly what he recommended to do in that article. i was AGREEING with Berkhan

[forbes]

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

oh trust me i get that you dont just have a scoop of whey and instantly have 24 grams of protein pulsing through you but i do believe that it is BETTER than having food with a significant time lapse after training. the only “evidence” i have is my own experiences…

also A LOT of people have reported similar findings. i hope you dont think i’m saying that it is the ONLY way, i just think it the better way.

i dont have any studies handy if thats what you’re asking. can you show me studies saying otherwise?
[/quote]

Without facts this conversation is pointless. My argument is based on established facts and the reasoning extrapolated from those facts. You are the one that is making a claim not already supported by the literature so the burden of proof is on you.

It is established that individuals eating frequent, high protein meals have elevated blood levels of amino acids for a number of hours after the feeding. As a matter of fact, no significant proteolysis occurs within 16 hours of a previous high protein feeding.

You don’t need to chug protein during a workout because 1) that protein is going to sit in your gut for an amount of time that is long enough that you will already be done training before it is digested and absorbed

and 2) that protein isn’t going to necessarily spike blood levels of amino acids beyond the point at which they would already be elevated by high protein meals consumed previously in the day (assuming that the meals are consumed in reasonable proximity to training).

All of the research that I have seen regarding supplemental “fast acting” protein sources consumed pre or peri-workout have involved some significant degree of fasting prior to ingestion so unless you are training 12+ hours after your last feeding, the relevance of this research is somewhat mitigated.

Of course, if one is utilizing an intermittent fasting approach, the rules, possibilities, and advantages of para-workout nutrition change entirely. I would be VERY interested in seeing some case studies of individuals utilizing something like the Anaconda Protocol with an intermittent fasting approach.

The pre-workout feedings coupled with rather large nutrient intake during the actual training session falls in line fairly nicely with the guidelines given by Berkhan.

As a matter of fact, if Biotest wanted to send me some research supplies, I’d gladly try it out myself and offer a full report on the efficacy of such an application, possibly in the form of an article. TC, Brian, let me know :)[/quote]

im not even really sure what this argument is about. forbes said he was going to workout in the morning, only have a scoop of protein before/during his workout, fast until a certain time, then consume his calories. i just said i thought that was dumb and that the better approach would be to eat around his workout and then fast afterwards…

you claimed that i was going against Berkhan but i was repeating exactly what he recommended to do in that article. i was AGREEING with Berkhan
[/quote]

I understand that its better to plan your feeding around your workout, however that doesn’t suit me well. I need food before I go to bed because I have a hard time sleeping on an empty stomach, and with my history of sleeping problems, I’ll do whatever it takes to get a good nights sleep. The only thing I’m worried about is excessive protein breakdown. As long as I can offset too much catabolism, then I’ll be happy and set at ease. I feast during my feeding window, consuming ample protein, carbs and healthy fats, which will mostly go towards muscle tissue and not my fat stores.

[Vegita]

This is a weird one for me. I grew up eating a LARGE brekfast every day, I mean usually a whole box of cereal with probably 3-4 cups of milk in with that. As I got older and started drinking cofee, I went for several years eating no breakfast. Now, I’m about 50-50, Some days I’ll wake up and i’ll be starving and I’ll make myself a couple egg sandwiches or some bacon and eggs, and other times I don’t eat till lunch and couldn’t if I wanted to.

Take this morning for example, I was up 45 minutes before my alarm, Had plenty of time to cook a nice big breakfast, but I looked at the eggs and was just not even remotely interested in making or eating breakfast.

V