Olympic Lifts/Complexes and Layer System

Bigger Stronger Leaner Christian Thibaudeau Coaching
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[quote]cmryan_21 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]cmryan_21 wrote:
CT, what would be the best hand positioning for using the Bear complex? I tried using it today and I had adjust my hands wider when performing the back squats and btn thrusters. Then I had to readjust my hands inward for the power clean, front squat and thruster. Should I just stick to a wide grip or adjust intra-set when necessary? Btw, when I say wide grip I mean somewhere a little closer than halfway between a snatch grip and regular clean grip.[/quote]

It might indicate poor shoulder mobility. So I’d work on that instead of trying to mess up with your grip.

I personally use a very wide grip for cleans anyway, I believe that this is mechanically more efficient (can bring the bar closer to the hips at the moment of explosion) but it requires good external shoulder rotation mobility if you are to catch it properly into a correct front rack position.

If you are having issues with the Btn thrusters its either that your chest, anterior deltoids or internal rotators (most likely all of them) are tight and that needs to be addressed. [/quote]

That obvious huh lol. Well, what are some of the better methods to improving shoulder mobility? I noticed in one of your other threads that the rings dips you use at the end of sessions improved your shoulder mobility somewhat. I know that my shoulders will likely require much more than just that though.

I’d be ok using a wider clean grip for the power cleans and thrusters but a wide grip feels a little painful for front squats. I know my overall mobility is not great (or even good) but it has improved over the last few months and I thought I was ready to start using some of the olympic lifts. It would be a real buzz kill if I need to wait even longer. [/quote]

If a wide grip feels okay for cleans and thrusters but not for front squats it tells me that you are not racking your cleans properly. The bar should be deep against the throat and the elbows held up high.

As for mobility work, when I started reintegrating the olympic lifts this year I actually had to do close to 45 minutes of shoulder mobiity work on every workout. When you have limited range of motion and a long training experience, the problem will require an aggressive approach and will not be fixed overnight.

In the meantime I personally recommend against doing movements in which you cannot take optimal positions due to poor mobility because you will learn improper technique.

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Hey Coach, I’d be really interested to learn how one can progress with these complexes. At the moment I’m doing the layer system Monday through Friday, two continuous ramp explosive pull days, two push press days, and one TBDL day, but I’d really like to program these complex workouts.

Would it be possible to keep to more or less the same schedule, or would that make recovery difficult? Also, would it be a good idea to cycle between strength focus periods and hypertrophy periods or is there a better way of progressing I’m unaware of?

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This seems to be exactly what I’m looking for - an oly based program with a metcon component to lean out, which is my “primary” focus now (meaning, while still doing oly & and not switching to traditional bodybuilding.)

I’ve got a week left on my current program so my mind is really wandering all over the 'net to find the next one to do, and I’ve also been intrigued by your V-Taper workout. Is there a reasonable way you see combining the two? Would it be a day unto itself, added onto other workouts, or maybe replacing the complex portion of 1-2 workouts per week?

Thanks CT!

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[quote]xpangaeax wrote:
This seems to be exactly what I’m looking for - an oly based program with a metcon component to lean out, which is my “primary” focus now (meaning, while still doing oly & and not switching to traditional bodybuilding.)

I’ve got a week left on my current program so my mind is really wandering all over the 'net to find the next one to do, and I’ve also been intrigued by your V-Taper workout. Is there a reasonable way you see combining the two? Would it be a day unto itself, added onto other workouts, or maybe replacing the complex portion of 1-2 workouts per week?

Thanks CT![/quote]

I don’t like to combine workouts. Specifically I don’t like taking a full program and adding something to it. My programs are already high in volume, adding stuff in can make a great program ineffective. If you want to do the V-taper workout you will have to drop an equivalent amount of overall volume from the program.

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Makes sense, thank you! Just overwhelmed by choices, ya know? I will be doing the program as written on the first page of this thread, with the complexes in the 40-60% range for 4-7 reps.

How does this split look?
M - SGHP
T - Jerk / Push Press
W - Clean
Th - SGHP
F - Front Squat

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This is a really cool program.

I had a question regarding Layer 2. Why do you start with 3 reps at 65% wouldn’t that built too much fatigue by the time you reach 5 x 1? Would it work better to work in reverse (example below)?

LAYER 2

Main lift
5 x 1 @ 90 % (one set every 30 seconds)
5 x 2 minus 10-20lbs more (one set every 30 sec)
5 x 3 with minus 20lbs more (one set every 30 sec)

thank you

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One random question - are the suggested “main excercises” for a Olympic Lifting adapted Layer system Clean, DL, Squat, Pull-up and snatch? i.e. 5 daysx week using 3 layers?
Or do you still utilise push-press, jerk, etc? Apologies if this is an obvious question - thanks in advance

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You can’t do that without severely crashing your nervous system not to mention that the pull-up doesn’t work well with layers unless you are VERY strong at them. The 3rd layer uses 60-70%. If you are 200lbs you can’t go lower in resistance than your bodyweight. This means that your 60-70% must be 200lbs or more. This means that your 1RM is at least 60-80lbs more than body weight (so attaching 60 to 80lbs to your waist and doing a very strict pull-up). If you can do that, when yes, you can use layers will pull-ups. Now, if you are lighter you might not need the same requirement. For example if you are 175lbs you would need to be able to do one very strict pull-up with 50-70lbs attached to your waist.

I also never use layers with deadlifts, too neurologically draining.

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Great stuff, thank you for your response Christian.
So, if one were to arrange the layer system to utilise the olympic lifts, would you arrange for something like:

Day 1: Squat + associated layers as described in article
Day 2: SGHP + associated layers as described in article
Day 3: Clean + layers as described in this forum
Day 4: Snatch + layers as described in this forum

or

Day 1: Squat + associated layers as described in this forum
Day 2: Push press + associated layers as described in article
Day 3: Snatch + layers as described in this forum

In the following quote, is it meant that if you train deadlift on one particular day, you ramp, then skip Layer two, then work on the bear or klokov complex.

“Ideally the complex would go with the lift trained that day. For example if you do a clean or deadlift as your main movement, The Bear or Klokov are good choices. If you are training back squats or pull-ups the snatch complex is a better choice. I you are training a press the Canadian bear complex is the best choice.”

I love the set up of your layer system, but have competed in Olympic Lifting (albeit two years ago), and looking to back into using the movements while still maintaining/building squat/pressing strength

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Reupping these amazing complexes

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Hmmm gonna start a CrossFit prep in a couple of months, this certainly has my attention :eyes: