Layers and Complexes

Bigger Stronger Leaner Christian Thibaudeau Coaching
1

I’ve seen that you discussed and gave a example of using the layer system along with Olympic lifting focused complexes, but would there be any place in the layer system for something similar to say the superhero complexes?

IE. Bench
Ramp to X daily max
Complex 3-5 sets
Pin press
Pause bench
Speed DB press
Med ball chest throw
Then possibly carries after?

Giveing that the layer system is a blend of different loading parameters rather then a set “program” I thought that there may be a place for complexes in it, but I wanted to get your opinion on the subject. Thanks Coach.

2

[quote]Trevorxgage wrote:
I’ve seen that you discussed and gave a example of using the layer system along with Olympic lifting focused complexes, but would there be any place in the layer system for something similar to say the superhero complexes?

IE. Bench
Ramp to X daily max
Complex 3-5 sets
Pin press
Pause bench
Speed DB press
Med ball chest throw
Then possibly carries after?

Giveing that the layer system is a blend of different loading parameters rather then a set “program” I thought that there may be a place for complexes in it, but I wanted to get your opinion on the subject. Thanks Coach.[/quote]

  1. The superhero complexes ARE an application of layers. Layers refer to using different contraction types for one single movement pattern. So in a SH complex you have one overload set, one maximal set, one strength-speed set, one speed-strength set for the same movement pattern. It is thus a layer, but a different application.

  2. NO WAY NO HOW should you do a max ramp prior to doing complexes; the complexes are among the hardest thing you can impose on your CNS and adding a max ramp will put it overboard. You SHOULD do a ramp (as a progressive warm-up/activation) and to know where to start your complexes, but this ramp should not be maximal or near it.

The dangerous thing is that CNS fatigue is hard to notice.

a) you might do 1, 2 or 3 sessions and feel fine… then reason that the amount and demand of the work you are doing is fine for you

b) you might not notice neural fatigue, mistaking it simply for being a bit tired

So you continue with the workouts, thinking that you are recovering fine from them and saying to yourself “Thib doesn’t know what he’s talking about, I can handle this!”… but CNS creeps up on you gradually and you do not notice it until it’s too late and you hit a wall… then it takes you several weeks to be able to get back in good form.

3

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Trevorxgage wrote:
I’ve seen that you discussed and gave a example of using the layer system along with Olympic lifting focused complexes, but would there be any place in the layer system for something similar to say the superhero complexes?

IE. Bench
Ramp to X daily max
Complex 3-5 sets
Pin press
Pause bench
Speed DB press
Med ball chest throw
Then possibly carries after?

Giveing that the layer system is a blend of different loading parameters rather then a set “program” I thought that there may be a place for complexes in it, but I wanted to get your opinion on the subject. Thanks Coach.[/quote]

  1. The superhero complexes ARE an application of layers. Layers refer to using different contraction types for one single movement pattern. So in a SH complex you have one overload set, one maximal set, one strength-speed set, one speed-strength set for the same movement pattern. It is thus a layer, but a different application.

  2. NO WAY NO HOW should you do a max ramp prior to doing complexes; the complexes are among the hardest thing you can impose on your CNS and adding a max ramp will put it overboard. You SHOULD do a ramp (as a progressive warm-up/activation) and to know where to start your complexes, but this ramp should not be maximal or near it.

The dangerous thing is that CNS fatigue is hard to notice.

a) you might do 1, 2 or 3 sessions and feel fine… then reason that the amount and demand of the work you are doing is fine for you

b) you might not notice neural fatigue, mistaking it simply for being a bit tired

So you continue with the workouts, thinking that you are recovering fine from them and saying to yourself “Thib doesn’t know what he’s talking about, I can handle this!”… but CNS creeps up on you gradually and you do not notice it until it’s too late and you hit a wall… then it takes you several weeks to be able to get back in good form.[/quote]

I can imagine it would be a quick way to fatigue yourself going to a near maximal attempt on the ramps.
Would doing something like explosive 5’s or 3’s be fine assuming you be sure to stop once bar speed slows to a relatively nonexplosive point?

4

[quote]Trevorxgage wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Trevorxgage wrote:
I’ve seen that you discussed and gave a example of using the layer system along with Olympic lifting focused complexes, but would there be any place in the layer system for something similar to say the superhero complexes?

IE. Bench
Ramp to X daily max
Complex 3-5 sets
Pin press
Pause bench
Speed DB press
Med ball chest throw
Then possibly carries after?

Giveing that the layer system is a blend of different loading parameters rather then a set “program” I thought that there may be a place for complexes in it, but I wanted to get your opinion on the subject. Thanks Coach.[/quote]

  1. The superhero complexes ARE an application of layers. Layers refer to using different contraction types for one single movement pattern. So in a SH complex you have one overload set, one maximal set, one strength-speed set, one speed-strength set for the same movement pattern. It is thus a layer, but a different application.

  2. NO WAY NO HOW should you do a max ramp prior to doing complexes; the complexes are among the hardest thing you can impose on your CNS and adding a max ramp will put it overboard. You SHOULD do a ramp (as a progressive warm-up/activation) and to know where to start your complexes, but this ramp should not be maximal or near it.

The dangerous thing is that CNS fatigue is hard to notice.

a) you might do 1, 2 or 3 sessions and feel fine… then reason that the amount and demand of the work you are doing is fine for you

b) you might not notice neural fatigue, mistaking it simply for being a bit tired

So you continue with the workouts, thinking that you are recovering fine from them and saying to yourself “Thib doesn’t know what he’s talking about, I can handle this!”… but CNS creeps up on you gradually and you do not notice it until it’s too late and you hit a wall… then it takes you several weeks to be able to get back in good form.[/quote]

I can imagine it would be a quick way to fatigue yourself going to a near maximal attempt on the ramps.
Would doing something like explosive 5’s or 3’s be fine assuming you be sure to stop once bar speed slows to a relatively nonexplosive point?[/quote]

Dude, the superhero complexes are superhard work… they are very hard to recover from for most… stop being a stimulus addict looking for more stuff to do, focus on results not on doing more.

1 Like
5

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Trevorxgage wrote:
I’ve seen that you discussed and gave a example of using the layer system along with Olympic lifting focused complexes, but would there be any place in the layer system for something similar to say the superhero complexes?

IE. Bench
Ramp to X daily max
Complex 3-5 sets
Pin press
Pause bench
Speed DB press
Med ball chest throw
Then possibly carries after?

Giveing that the layer system is a blend of different loading parameters rather then a set “program” I thought that there may be a place for complexes in it, but I wanted to get your opinion on the subject. Thanks Coach.[/quote]

  1. The superhero complexes ARE an application of layers. Layers refer to using different contraction types for one single movement pattern. So in a SH complex you have one overload set, one maximal set, one strength-speed set, one speed-strength set for the same movement pattern. It is thus a layer, but a different application.

  2. NO WAY NO HOW should you do a max ramp prior to doing complexes; the complexes are among the hardest thing you can impose on your CNS and adding a max ramp will put it overboard. You SHOULD do a ramp (as a progressive warm-up/activation) and to know where to start your complexes, but this ramp should not be maximal or near it.

The dangerous thing is that CNS fatigue is hard to notice.

a) you might do 1, 2 or 3 sessions and feel fine… then reason that the amount and demand of the work you are doing is fine for you

b) you might not notice neural fatigue, mistaking it simply for being a bit tired

So you continue with the workouts, thinking that you are recovering fine from them and saying to yourself “Thib doesn’t know what he’s talking about, I can handle this!”… but CNS creeps up on you gradually and you do not notice it until it’s too late and you hit a wall… then it takes you several weeks to be able to get back in good form.[/quote]

This is so fascinating. I would love to see a forum and/or article on this.
“Hit the wall”-- I know the feeling. I’m sure many of us do.

6

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Trevorxgage wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Trevorxgage wrote:
I’ve seen that you discussed and gave a example of using the layer system along with Olympic lifting focused complexes, but would there be any place in the layer system for something similar to say the superhero complexes?

IE. Bench
Ramp to X daily max
Complex 3-5 sets
Pin press
Pause bench
Speed DB press
Med ball chest throw
Then possibly carries after?

Giveing that the layer system is a blend of different loading parameters rather then a set “program” I thought that there may be a place for complexes in it, but I wanted to get your opinion on the subject. Thanks Coach.[/quote]

  1. The superhero complexes ARE an application of layers. Layers refer to using different contraction types for one single movement pattern. So in a SH complex you have one overload set, one maximal set, one strength-speed set, one speed-strength set for the same movement pattern. It is thus a layer, but a different application.

  2. NO WAY NO HOW should you do a max ramp prior to doing complexes; the complexes are among the hardest thing you can impose on your CNS and adding a max ramp will put it overboard. You SHOULD do a ramp (as a progressive warm-up/activation) and to know where to start your complexes, but this ramp should not be maximal or near it.

The dangerous thing is that CNS fatigue is hard to notice.

a) you might do 1, 2 or 3 sessions and feel fine… then reason that the amount and demand of the work you are doing is fine for you

b) you might not notice neural fatigue, mistaking it simply for being a bit tired

So you continue with the workouts, thinking that you are recovering fine from them and saying to yourself “Thib doesn’t know what he’s talking about, I can handle this!”… but CNS creeps up on you gradually and you do not notice it until it’s too late and you hit a wall… then it takes you several weeks to be able to get back in good form.[/quote]

I can imagine it would be a quick way to fatigue yourself going to a near maximal attempt on the ramps.
Would doing something like explosive 5’s or 3’s be fine assuming you be sure to stop once bar speed slows to a relatively nonexplosive point?[/quote]

Dude, the superhero complexes are superhard work… they are very hard to recover from for most… stop being a stimulus addict looking for more stuff to do, focus on results not on doing more.[/quote]

Fair enough, I deserve that.
I’m sure most of us need a slap in the face from time to time when it comes to stimulus addiction.

I do have a question regarding the strength endurance prowler stuff though. Would variations of carries be a decent substitute?

7

[quote]Trevorxgage wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Trevorxgage wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Trevorxgage wrote:
I’ve seen that you discussed and gave a example of using the layer system along with Olympic lifting focused complexes, but would there be any place in the layer system for something similar to say the superhero complexes?

IE. Bench
Ramp to X daily max
Complex 3-5 sets
Pin press
Pause bench
Speed DB press
Med ball chest throw
Then possibly carries after?

Giveing that the layer system is a blend of different loading parameters rather then a set “program” I thought that there may be a place for complexes in it, but I wanted to get your opinion on the subject. Thanks Coach.[/quote]

  1. The superhero complexes ARE an application of layers. Layers refer to using different contraction types for one single movement pattern. So in a SH complex you have one overload set, one maximal set, one strength-speed set, one speed-strength set for the same movement pattern. It is thus a layer, but a different application.

  2. NO WAY NO HOW should you do a max ramp prior to doing complexes; the complexes are among the hardest thing you can impose on your CNS and adding a max ramp will put it overboard. You SHOULD do a ramp (as a progressive warm-up/activation) and to know where to start your complexes, but this ramp should not be maximal or near it.

The dangerous thing is that CNS fatigue is hard to notice.

a) you might do 1, 2 or 3 sessions and feel fine… then reason that the amount and demand of the work you are doing is fine for you

b) you might not notice neural fatigue, mistaking it simply for being a bit tired

So you continue with the workouts, thinking that you are recovering fine from them and saying to yourself “Thib doesn’t know what he’s talking about, I can handle this!”… but CNS creeps up on you gradually and you do not notice it until it’s too late and you hit a wall… then it takes you several weeks to be able to get back in good form.[/quote]

I can imagine it would be a quick way to fatigue yourself going to a near maximal attempt on the ramps.
Would doing something like explosive 5’s or 3’s be fine assuming you be sure to stop once bar speed slows to a relatively nonexplosive point?[/quote]

Dude, the superhero complexes are superhard work… they are very hard to recover from for most… stop being a stimulus addict looking for more stuff to do, focus on results not on doing more.[/quote]

Fair enough, I deserve that.
I’m sure most of us need a slap in the face from time to time when it comes to stimulus addiction.

I do have a question regarding the strength endurance prowler stuff though. Would variations of carries be a decent substitute? [/quote]

Yes, carries would be a very good substitute.

8

Even two or three sets of a light weight complex can be demanding on the nervous system. They fatigue me just thinking about them. Great for fat loss, but complexes don’t allow me to train on a daily basis so I usually don’t do them.

FOR ME, nothing is simpler or more effective than a 5/4/3/2/1 circuit + loaded carries.

9

then it takes you several weeks to be able to get back in good form / even longer if you older neurotype 3 /