Olympic Lifts/Complexes and Layer System

Bigger Stronger Leaner Christian Thibaudeau Coaching
41

[quote]howie424 wrote:
CT-

I use a variation of your Snatch Complex (SG deadlift, SGHP, Power Snatch, Back Squat, BTN Push Press) on my SGHP Days, and the Canadian Bear on Pressing Days.

What would be a good complex to use on Back Squat days? You have listed the Snatch Complex as a good one but I am already using it. Is it okay to use it on two different days? Should I use The Bear? Or Klokov? (DL, Power Clean, Front Squat, Push Press, Jerk)[/quote]

The one I’m using with my hockey players is:

  • 3 deadlifts*
  • 3 power cleans
  • 3 front squats

For the deadlift we use 45-55lbs per side more than for the power clean. Let’s say that 225lbs is used for the power clean. The bar would be loaded like:

45lbs plate + 45lbs plate + collar + 45lbs plate (so that the 3rd plate can be removed rapidly).

42

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]howie424 wrote:
CT-

I use a variation of your Snatch Complex (SG deadlift, SGHP, Power Snatch, Back Squat, BTN Push Press) on my SGHP Days, and the Canadian Bear on Pressing Days.

What would be a good complex to use on Back Squat days? You have listed the Snatch Complex as a good one but I am already using it. Is it okay to use it on two different days? Should I use The Bear? Or Klokov? (DL, Power Clean, Front Squat, Push Press, Jerk)[/quote]

The one I’m using with my hockey players is:

  • 3 deadlifts*
  • 3 power cleans
  • 3 front squats

For the deadlift we use 45-55lbs per side more than for the power clean. Let’s say that 225lbs is used for the power clean. The bar would be loaded like:

45lbs plate + 45lbs plate + collar + 45lbs plate (so that the 3rd plate can be removed rapidly).[/quote]

Do you happen to have a name for this barbell complex creation of yours? I have already scheduled it in!

43

[quote]Ricochet wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]howie424 wrote:
CT-

I use a variation of your Snatch Complex (SG deadlift, SGHP, Power Snatch, Back Squat, BTN Push Press) on my SGHP Days, and the Canadian Bear on Pressing Days.

What would be a good complex to use on Back Squat days? You have listed the Snatch Complex as a good one but I am already using it. Is it okay to use it on two different days? Should I use The Bear? Or Klokov? (DL, Power Clean, Front Squat, Push Press, Jerk)[/quote]

The one I’m using with my hockey players is:

  • 3 deadlifts*
  • 3 power cleans
  • 3 front squats

For the deadlift we use 45-55lbs per side more than for the power clean. Let’s say that 225lbs is used for the power clean. The bar would be loaded like:

45lbs plate + 45lbs plate + collar + 45lbs plate (so that the 3rd plate can be removed rapidly).[/quote]

Do you happen to have a name for this barbell complex creation of yours? I have already scheduled it in! [/quote]

Not really… I call it the deadlift/clean/squat complex ;)… so maybe DCS complex

44

Very cool CT. I am loving these complexes, they are a lot of fun.

45

[quote]howie424 wrote:
Very cool CT. I am loving these complexes, they are a lot of fun. [/quote]

I have tons and tons of them for different purposes. Eventually an article on them might be cool.

46

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]howie424 wrote:
CT-

I use a variation of your Snatch Complex (SG deadlift, SGHP, Power Snatch, Back Squat, BTN Push Press) on my SGHP Days, and the Canadian Bear on Pressing Days.

What would be a good complex to use on Back Squat days? You have listed the Snatch Complex as a good one but I am already using it. Is it okay to use it on two different days? Should I use The Bear? Or Klokov? (DL, Power Clean, Front Squat, Push Press, Jerk)[/quote]

The one I’m using with my hockey players is:

  • 3 deadlifts*
  • 3 power cleans
  • 3 front squats

For the deadlift we use 45-55lbs per side more than for the power clean. Let’s say that 225lbs is used for the power clean. The bar would be loaded like:

45lbs plate + 45lbs plate + collar + 45lbs plate (so that the 3rd plate can be removed rapidly).[/quote]

i did the clean,fr squat, rdl complex today. it’s on day 8 of the 10 day leg focus.
the disparity in the amount of weight i can do with these is huge. can i add weight for the rdl portion?

47

[quote]domcib wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]howie424 wrote:
CT-

I use a variation of your Snatch Complex (SG deadlift, SGHP, Power Snatch, Back Squat, BTN Push Press) on my SGHP Days, and the Canadian Bear on Pressing Days.

What would be a good complex to use on Back Squat days? You have listed the Snatch Complex as a good one but I am already using it. Is it okay to use it on two different days? Should I use The Bear? Or Klokov? (DL, Power Clean, Front Squat, Push Press, Jerk)[/quote]

The one I’m using with my hockey players is:

  • 3 deadlifts*
  • 3 power cleans
  • 3 front squats

For the deadlift we use 45-55lbs per side more than for the power clean. Let’s say that 225lbs is used for the power clean. The bar would be loaded like:

45lbs plate + 45lbs plate + collar + 45lbs plate (so that the 3rd plate can be removed rapidly).[/quote]

i did the clean,fr squat, rdl complex today. it’s on day 8 of the 10 day leg focus.
the disparity in the amount of weight i can do with these is huge. can i add weight for the rdl portion?[/quote]

Yes not problem

48

CT, What are your thoughts on using partial movements, such as deadlift to below the knee, in a complex? I’ve seen this presented as an option for working on a specific weak point within the complex, but I’m not quite sold on this idea.

A sample:
DL below the knee
Full DL
Hang Clean
Push Press
Front Squat

I also thought I’d post that I’ve added the GHR into my SGHP sessions once per week, and my SGHP numbers have really taken a 20lb leap for a training max triple.

49

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Ricochet wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]howie424 wrote:
CT-

I use a variation of your Snatch Complex (SG deadlift, SGHP, Power Snatch, Back Squat, BTN Push Press) on my SGHP Days, and the Canadian Bear on Pressing Days.

What would be a good complex to use on Back Squat days? You have listed the Snatch Complex as a good one but I am already using it. Is it okay to use it on two different days? Should I use The Bear? Or Klokov? (DL, Power Clean, Front Squat, Push Press, Jerk)[/quote]

The one I’m using with my hockey players is:

  • 3 deadlifts*
  • 3 power cleans
  • 3 front squats

For the deadlift we use 45-55lbs per side more than for the power clean. Let’s say that 225lbs is used for the power clean. The bar would be loaded like:

45lbs plate + 45lbs plate + collar + 45lbs plate (so that the 3rd plate can be removed rapidly).[/quote]

Do you happen to have a name for this barbell complex creation of yours? I have already scheduled it in! [/quote]

Not really… I call it the deadlift/clean/squat complex ;)… so maybe DCS complex[/quote]

CT: I completed 4 sets of your DCS Complex @ 120kg / 80kg… it was tough to say the least. I’ll increase the loading by 5kg next time. Thanks again for the complexes.

50

Hey CT,

Because of a shoulder problem, I haven’t been able to try these. But any specific advantages when doing the complex in your sequence than doing each exercise for reps, then moving on to the next exercise?

Your example:

IMPORTANT: One rep is doing all the sequence once. So if you have 3 reps you do not do (for example) power clean, power clean, power clean, front squat, front squat, front squat, etc. you do all the sequence once, then start over again a second time then a third time.

51

[quote]Ricochet wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Ricochet wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]howie424 wrote:
CT-

I use a variation of your Snatch Complex (SG deadlift, SGHP, Power Snatch, Back Squat, BTN Push Press) on my SGHP Days, and the Canadian Bear on Pressing Days.

What would be a good complex to use on Back Squat days? You have listed the Snatch Complex as a good one but I am already using it. Is it okay to use it on two different days? Should I use The Bear? Or Klokov? (DL, Power Clean, Front Squat, Push Press, Jerk)[/quote]

The one I’m using with my hockey players is:

  • 3 deadlifts*
  • 3 power cleans
  • 3 front squats

For the deadlift we use 45-55lbs per side more than for the power clean. Let’s say that 225lbs is used for the power clean. The bar would be loaded like:

45lbs plate + 45lbs plate + collar + 45lbs plate (so that the 3rd plate can be removed rapidly).[/quote]

Do you happen to have a name for this barbell complex creation of yours? I have already scheduled it in! [/quote]

Not really… I call it the deadlift/clean/squat complex ;)… so maybe DCS complex[/quote]

CT: I completed 4 sets of your DCS Complex @ 120kg / 80kg… it was tough to say the least. I’ll increase the loading by 5kg next time. Thanks again for the complexes.[/quote]

Good start… I have two 17 years old hockey players using 160kg / 110kg for that complex :wink:

52

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Ricochet wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Ricochet wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]howie424 wrote:
CT-

I use a variation of your Snatch Complex (SG deadlift, SGHP, Power Snatch, Back Squat, BTN Push Press) on my SGHP Days, and the Canadian Bear on Pressing Days.

What would be a good complex to use on Back Squat days? You have listed the Snatch Complex as a good one but I am already using it. Is it okay to use it on two different days? Should I use The Bear? Or Klokov? (DL, Power Clean, Front Squat, Push Press, Jerk)[/quote]

The one I’m using with my hockey players is:

  • 3 deadlifts*
  • 3 power cleans
  • 3 front squats

For the deadlift we use 45-55lbs per side more than for the power clean. Let’s say that 225lbs is used for the power clean. The bar would be loaded like:

45lbs plate + 45lbs plate + collar + 45lbs plate (so that the 3rd plate can be removed rapidly).[/quote]

Do you happen to have a name for this barbell complex creation of yours? I have already scheduled it in! [/quote]

Not really… I call it the deadlift/clean/squat complex ;)… so maybe DCS complex[/quote]

CT: I completed 4 sets of your DCS Complex @ 120kg / 80kg… it was tough to say the least. I’ll increase the loading by 5kg next time. Thanks again for the complexes.[/quote]

Good start… I have two 17 years old hockey players using 160kg / 110kg for that complex ;)[/quote]

Putain… you just made me feel really old!!! Ha! I know my clean is awful and is definitely holding me back but I am working on it. How much difference would you say should be between the deadlift load and the clean and front squat loading? My conventional deadlift 1RM is 255kg so 120kg feels pretty light but I was gathering you were using 40% as the difference.

53

[quote]Ricochet wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Ricochet wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Ricochet wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]howie424 wrote:
CT-

I use a variation of your Snatch Complex (SG deadlift, SGHP, Power Snatch, Back Squat, BTN Push Press) on my SGHP Days, and the Canadian Bear on Pressing Days.

What would be a good complex to use on Back Squat days? You have listed the Snatch Complex as a good one but I am already using it. Is it okay to use it on two different days? Should I use The Bear? Or Klokov? (DL, Power Clean, Front Squat, Push Press, Jerk)[/quote]

The one I’m using with my hockey players is:

  • 3 deadlifts*
  • 3 power cleans
  • 3 front squats

For the deadlift we use 45-55lbs per side more than for the power clean. Let’s say that 225lbs is used for the power clean. The bar would be loaded like:

45lbs plate + 45lbs plate + collar + 45lbs plate (so that the 3rd plate can be removed rapidly).[/quote]

Do you happen to have a name for this barbell complex creation of yours? I have already scheduled it in! [/quote]

Not really… I call it the deadlift/clean/squat complex ;)… so maybe DCS complex[/quote]

CT: I completed 4 sets of your DCS Complex @ 120kg / 80kg… it was tough to say the least. I’ll increase the loading by 5kg next time. Thanks again for the complexes.[/quote]

Good start… I have two 17 years old hockey players using 160kg / 110kg for that complex ;)[/quote]

Putain… you just made me feel really old!!! Ha! I know my clean is awful and is definitely holding me back but I am working on it. How much difference would you say should be between the deadlift load and the clean and front squat loading? My conventional deadlift 1RM is 255kg so 120kg feels pretty light but I was gathering you were using 40% as the difference.
[/quote]

In that case use more for the deadlift, BUT it has to be a clean deadlift (using the same starting form as in a power clean, low hips, chest up) not a powerlifting deadlift.

54

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]howie424 wrote:
CT-

I use a variation of your Snatch Complex (SG deadlift, SGHP, Power Snatch, Back Squat, BTN Push Press) on my SGHP Days, and the Canadian Bear on Pressing Days.

What would be a good complex to use on Back Squat days? You have listed the Snatch Complex as a good one but I am already using it. Is it okay to use it on two different days? Should I use The Bear? Or Klokov? (DL, Power Clean, Front Squat, Push Press, Jerk)[/quote]

The one I’m using with my hockey players is:

  • 3 deadlifts*
  • 3 power cleans
  • 3 front squats

For the deadlift we use 45-55lbs per side more than for the power clean. Let’s say that 225lbs is used for the power clean. The bar would be loaded like:

45lbs plate + 45lbs plate + collar + 45lbs plate (so that the 3rd plate can be removed rapidly).[/quote]

How do you decide which weight to use? My first guess would be a percentage based off of their power clean max, but I wanted to ask to be sure.

55

[quote]orcrist wrote:
Flood,
Been offline for a week, but still lifting, and I’m learning this whole thing is tricky to fine-tune for volume, also. My goal: trying to maintain my WL total while dropping down into a weight class, using WL-based strength layers plus metcon-oriented complexes.

My split:
Day 1: Snatch Ramp to 1RM, then Snatch 90%x3x2
SGHP Ramp to 3RM, then SGHP clusters or hard 5’s

Day 2: C&J Ramp to 2RM, then Front Squat x3/2/1 for 15 sets in 8 minutes
C&J Complex from above, 50% x24reps x2-3 sets

Day 3: Active Rest, recovery methods

Day 4: Clean & Press Ramp to 1RM, CnP Clusters 90% x2 sets
Pushpress Ramp to 3RM, then 90% x3x2
Tricep HDL

Day 5: Snatch to 2RM, then SGHP @100% x3/2/1 for 15 sets in 8min
Snatch Complex 50% x20reps x2-3sets

Day 6: Circuit of bodyweight exercises.

Day 7: Recovery methods

So far, I am not losing much weight. I am definitely leaner (increased vascularity) and my delts are actually growing. I also hit a PR in the full snatch this week ramping. I don’t really want to drop my calories too much, because recovery is already a challenge. I think layers are such a powerful anabolic stimulus, I am not sure it makes sense to use them so heavily while trying to cut weight. [/quote]

how’s this split going for you? looks really interesting and something i want to try out. any changes you made to it or any other thoughts? also, for the clean and press, is the press a regular military press or a push press?

56

[quote]iclardy wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]howie424 wrote:
CT-

I use a variation of your Snatch Complex (SG deadlift, SGHP, Power Snatch, Back Squat, BTN Push Press) on my SGHP Days, and the Canadian Bear on Pressing Days.

What would be a good complex to use on Back Squat days? You have listed the Snatch Complex as a good one but I am already using it. Is it okay to use it on two different days? Should I use The Bear? Or Klokov? (DL, Power Clean, Front Squat, Push Press, Jerk)[/quote]

The one I’m using with my hockey players is:

  • 3 deadlifts*
  • 3 power cleans
  • 3 front squats

For the deadlift we use 45-55lbs per side more than for the power clean. Let’s say that 225lbs is used for the power clean. The bar would be loaded like:

45lbs plate + 45lbs plate + collar + 45lbs plate (so that the 3rd plate can be removed rapidly).[/quote]

How do you decide which weight to use? My first guess would be a percentage based off of their power clean max, but I wanted to ask to be sure.[/quote]

Normally we use 80% of their power clean for the power cleans and front squats and 120-130% of their power clean on deadlifts.

57

CT,

This week I’m finishing my second go 'round of what you laid out on the first page of this thread and I’m hoping to get some advice on where to go next. The first time through I did the metcon option on the complexes and the second time I worked in the hypertrophy range.

My primary goal during this was to work on my strength capacity and it certainly improved. I’ve also happened to lose 16lbs in the last 10 weeks. (complexes were done for 8 weeks). Weight loss was a product of changing macro’s around, NOT a caloric deficit. Strength was at least maintained throughout if not increased and synth capacity improved. I also really loved the complexes. It was my first time really training with complexes and I really enjoyed it.

Important notes:

  • I used only MAG-10 as my peri the last 8 weeks. Prior to that it was Anaconda.
  • I am now adding Plazma

Main goal:

  • continue to get leaner as I am finally climbing my way out of the “dead zone” and would like to continue on losing fat.
    Secondary goal:
  • improve performance, especially on the high pull and clean grip muscle snatch. I really enjoy both of these and seems to have hit a plateau on the high pull. I feel it’s really my upper body holding me back on this since as I approach my 1rm I lose confidence in my grip (using straps) and back tightness to fully transfer the hips explosion. I could be wrong here though…

I’ve been using a 7 day setup of:
Monday - high pull
Tuesday - clean grip muscle snatch
Wednesday - slight decline bench
Thursday - high pull
Friday - clean grip muscle snatch
Saturday - lats and biceps work
Sunday - off

I like this set up for me but I am open to something different.

Any thoughts on where to go next are much appreciated.

58

CT, what would be the best hand positioning for using the Bear complex? I tried using it today and I had adjust my hands wider when performing the back squats and btn thrusters. Then I had to readjust my hands inward for the power clean, front squat and thruster. Should I just stick to a wide grip or adjust intra-set when necessary? Btw, when I say wide grip I mean somewhere a little closer than halfway between a snatch grip and regular clean grip.

59

[quote]cmryan_21 wrote:
CT, what would be the best hand positioning for using the Bear complex? I tried using it today and I had adjust my hands wider when performing the back squats and btn thrusters. Then I had to readjust my hands inward for the power clean, front squat and thruster. Should I just stick to a wide grip or adjust intra-set when necessary? Btw, when I say wide grip I mean somewhere a little closer than halfway between a snatch grip and regular clean grip.[/quote]

It might indicate poor shoulder mobility. So I’d work on that instead of trying to mess up with your grip.

I personally use a very wide grip for cleans anyway, I believe that this is mechanically more efficient (can bring the bar closer to the hips at the moment of explosion) but it requires good external shoulder rotation mobility if you are to catch it properly into a correct front rack position.

If you are having issues with the Btn thrusters its either that your chest, anterior deltoids or internal rotators (most likely all of them) are tight and that needs to be addressed.

60

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]cmryan_21 wrote:
CT, what would be the best hand positioning for using the Bear complex? I tried using it today and I had adjust my hands wider when performing the back squats and btn thrusters. Then I had to readjust my hands inward for the power clean, front squat and thruster. Should I just stick to a wide grip or adjust intra-set when necessary? Btw, when I say wide grip I mean somewhere a little closer than halfway between a snatch grip and regular clean grip.[/quote]

It might indicate poor shoulder mobility. So I’d work on that instead of trying to mess up with your grip.

I personally use a very wide grip for cleans anyway, I believe that this is mechanically more efficient (can bring the bar closer to the hips at the moment of explosion) but it requires good external shoulder rotation mobility if you are to catch it properly into a correct front rack position.

If you are having issues with the Btn thrusters its either that your chest, anterior deltoids or internal rotators (most likely all of them) are tight and that needs to be addressed. [/quote]

That obvious huh lol. Well, what are some of the better methods to improving shoulder mobility? I noticed in one of your other threads that the rings dips you use at the end of sessions improved your shoulder mobility somewhat. I know that my shoulders will likely require much more than just that though.

I’d be ok using a wider clean grip for the power cleans and thrusters but a wide grip feels a little painful for front squats. I know my overall mobility is not great (or even good) but it has improved over the last few months and I thought I was ready to start using some of the olympic lifts. It would be a real buzz kill if I need to wait even longer.