Well, don’t you Olympic lifters ever do back squats bench and deads at the end of workouts? Low volume?
I’d like to see what an olympic lifting routine actually looks like
lordstorm show me an example of what you might be doing ?
Chase,
I think the best advice to you is to ask college football players, headcoach’s and strength and conditioning coach’s in your local area. That said, as a LB or RB you need to be explosive and in my stupid opinion Oly lifts beat Powerlifts for generating explosion. You simply CANNOT do a Personal Record in the clean and jerk or snatch slowly. It either explodes and you make the lift. Or you miss.
It does not matter if your a high school football player doing a 225 lbs clean and jerk. Or your Liao Hui, at 152 lbs doing a 435 clean and jerk.
It has to explode.
Watch the top powerlifters, the lifts are slow compared to a top olympic lifter. The squat, the bench and the dead are all slow when you talk about the top guys. The stupidest thing i ever read was where a powerlifting coach, who was making the arguement for Powerlifting being better for football said
“We can do the deadlift, squat and bench explosively too, we just take weight off the bar”
Think about that. Its the same as saying
Liao Hui could clean and jerk 600 lbs…if he just did it slower!
Olympic lifts are fast or they are failures.
Thats not the case with the powerlifts.
here’s some explosion for you,
bear in mind he was just foolin around before a meet.
LB
[quote]Chase44 wrote:
Well, don’t you Olympic lifters ever do back squats bench and deads at the end of workouts? Low volume?
I’d like to see what an olympic lifting routine actually looks like
lordstorm show me an example of what you might be doing ?
[/quote]
No BS for the purist Bulgarian lifter but others will back squat or do them on occasion
No BP
No Deads
You can do it and get some good gains but I doubt you will Sn 1.5x bw anytime soon or CJ 2x bw by working your BP and Deads as heavily. Some lifters can do it. I think Donny and a few other lifters can just about CJ 2x bw and, he use to DL a decent amount but he’s cut down on it now.
I would prioritise the OLifts first in your session. I’d recommend learning the full lifts. Take your time and learn it. Learning the Power versions is half a$$ing it imo and you will NEVER be fully comfortable doing the full lifts. You can shift more weight in the full lifts as well.
Then chuck in your BP, Squat and DL in.
Just train hard and do the OLifts first and you can get some relatively decent weights, but as to how far you can go is anyones guess. Most OLifters tend to not BP but some do. Most don’t DL heavy often. Maybe 3-4x a year.
There is definitely value in adding the OLifts in your routine. Learn them and start ramping up the weights. Who gives a f0ck if it’s not optimal. Not sleeping 8-9hrs a day is not optimal but you take what you can get. Better to train on 4-6hrs sleep then to not train at all. Just make sure your OLifts are safe and not to the point where your form will get you injured.
Koing
I’ve never heard of an oly lifter doing low bar parallel squats, but full back squats high bar, yeah definitely. There is a reason they are called the olympic stance/high bar.
The most basic routine is:
snatch warm up about 5 sets, then some triples/doubles/singles. How many sets and at what weight REALLY depends on what your goal is that day that you are lifting. Generally the more you wanna focus on technique the more you’ll lean towards many sets with lower weight and usually doubles/triples. Then again maybe your technique works with lower weights.
Then you try to max out and you see it breaking down. So maybe you need to do singles at 90% for technique. You never know and that’s why you need to be very smart about it or get a coach who knows about it. The more proficient you are at the lifts the more you’ll lean towards doing singles instead of doubles or triples
clean and jerk same idea(but no triples)
front squat or back squat. How much volume really varies. Koing and the bulgarians worked up to a max then did a couple of doubles. I right now will start doing 2 sets of 5 in front and 2 sets of 5 in back squat. Broz has his lifters work up to a max then do 30-50 reps every day(maybe twice a day I’m not sure) That’s insane volume.
When you compare it to something like 5x5 3 times per week, its way more. Add all the snatching and clean and jerking and maybe pulls, you can be sure your back and legs will get worked a lot. Deadlifts done 1-4 times per month is enough IMO to progress in the deadlift as well
Then the more optional stuff are extra work in snatch/clean and jerk and variations, clean or snatch pulls, jerks from racks, push pressing and pressing (from shoulders or behind neck).
At the end some lower back and abs exercizes with low weights or bodyweight.
Things you could add to work your entire body are pull ups and bench press. done 1-2 times per week wouldn’t interfere a lot with oly lifting and definitely should be done after the lifts and after squatting. or at the very least after the lifts. If you tire your arms doing some sort of pressing you will find it much harder to lock out stuff overhead. At least that has been my experience.
It is very key that the extra “non olympic” exercizes that you add are done at the very end. Obviously you also won’t be doing something like 10 sets of 5 reps at them either. You want to keep the volume rather low.
I think the thing that most people might not realize is that when you take an elite olympic lifter he can do pretty great at anything besides running long distance or anything like that. If you take a powerlifter he will be good at far less stuff than olympic lifters. But they obviously lift more weight in slow movements. Most of them are also far less flexible.
To be honest I think if one ran long distance while doing olympic lifts they could be great all around athletes. Problem is the two kind of interfere with each other but I’m sure you can go a long way in both before you have to stay at being average at both instead of awful at both.
[quote]lordstorm88 wrote:
To be honest I think if one ran long distance while doing olympic lifts they could be great all around athletes. Problem is the two kind of interfere with each other but I’m sure you can go a long way in both before you have to stay at being average at both instead of awful at both.[/quote]
Add some gymnastic moves to the mix then it becomes crossfit. I think.
Fair play to you wanting to learn, I think you can certainly get something out of the lifts. My suggestion would be - since you dont want to compete - do a lot of variations from the hip and from the hang, reduces the complexity of the lift somewhat.
Thank you lord storm for.clearing some things up . I really do appreciate it and am grateful for all the responses. My full clean isn’t bad in my opinion for someone who does the O lifts on occasion. 250, and there is room for improvement!! I posted in ct’s thread so we’ll see Wat responses I.get!
Chase44,
You should definately check out Glenn Pendlays article on training for both powerlifting and olympic lifting at the same time. It would be ideal for you. It’s on his website.
I believe he states that you can get pretty strong at both
supa power I can’t find it. For some reason the links to his articles aren’t working. Could you put the link on here?
Chase,
Last two cents.
Benchpress…your lying on the your back braced against the bench, your legs curled out behind you (if you rotate the picture 90 degrees). Where on the football field are you close to this type of movement?
PL Squat…you have weight low on the back of your shoulders and if your truely PL squatting your feet are about as wide as possible. Where on the football field do you have any pressure at all low on the back of your shoulders, or have your feet spread out PL squat length? Or move as slow as you do in a heavy squat?
PL deadlift…very close to a football stance, hips and knees bent, back squared. head up. Then you pull. If its a PL dead top end then its slow cause its a >90% lift. If the weight is lower than 90% and you lift it explosively…Then there is another name for that:
Its called 1/3 of a clean and jerk.
On the football field you need strength and coordination and balance. You don’t get that from a benchpress…your all braced down its simply strength. You don’t get it from PL squat. Have you ever seen someone miss a PL squat because of balance? Usually it just too much weight, not lack of coordination or balance.
The reason the PL records are so high in lbs vs Oly lifts is that the Oly lifts demand alot more coordination and balance as well as strength. Like a good LB or RB does.
As a LB/RB tell me you have not come across guys who can PL big numbers but are slow and clumsy between the white lines.
LB
[quote]LBramble wrote:
Chase,
Last two cents.
Benchpress…your lying on the your back braced against the bench, your legs curled out behind you (if you rotate the picture 90 degrees). Where on the football field are you close to this type of movement?
PL Squat…you have weight low on the back of your shoulders and if your truely PL squatting your feet are about as wide as possible. Where on the football field do you have any pressure at all low on the back of your shoulders, or have your feet spread out PL squat length? Or move as slow as you do in a heavy squat?
PL deadlift…very close to a football stance, hips and knees bent, back squared. head up. Then you pull. If its a PL dead top end then its slow cause its a >90% lift. If the weight is lower than 90% and you lift it explosively…Then there is another name for that:
Its called 1/3 of a clean and jerk.
On the football field you need strength and coordination and balance. You don’t get that from a benchpress…your all braced down its simply strength. You don’t get it from PL squat. Have you ever seen someone miss a PL squat because of balance? Usually it just too much weight, not lack of coordination or balance.
The reason the PL records are so high in lbs vs Oly lifts is that the Oly lifts demand alot more coordination and balance as well as strength. Like a good LB or RB does.
As a LB/RB tell me you have not come across guys who can PL big numbers but are slow and clumsy between the white lines.
LB[/quote]
Depending on how old the poster is the bench press is a requirement of the combine they do in the states so he’ll have to do it anyway for that for scolarships.
It’s a pretty sh!t lift in general but will almost certainly be a requirement for NFL guys.
Koing
[quote]Koing wrote:
[quote]LBramble wrote:
Chase,
Last two cents.
Benchpress…your lying on the your back braced against the bench, your legs curled out behind you (if you rotate the picture 90 degrees). Where on the football field are you close to this type of movement?
PL Squat…you have weight low on the back of your shoulders and if your truely PL squatting your feet are about as wide as possible. Where on the football field do you have any pressure at all low on the back of your shoulders, or have your feet spread out PL squat length? Or move as slow as you do in a heavy squat?
PL deadlift…very close to a football stance, hips and knees bent, back squared. head up. Then you pull. If its a PL dead top end then its slow cause its a >90% lift. If the weight is lower than 90% and you lift it explosively…Then there is another name for that:
Its called 1/3 of a clean and jerk.
On the football field you need strength and coordination and balance. You don’t get that from a benchpress…your all braced down its simply strength. You don’t get it from PL squat. Have you ever seen someone miss a PL squat because of balance? Usually it just too much weight, not lack of coordination or balance.
The reason the PL records are so high in lbs vs Oly lifts is that the Oly lifts demand alot more coordination and balance as well as strength. Like a good LB or RB does.
As a LB/RB tell me you have not come across guys who can PL big numbers but are slow and clumsy between the white lines.
LB[/quote]
Depending on how old the poster is the bench press is a requirement of the combine they do in the states so he’ll have to do it anyway for that for scolarships.
It’s a pretty sh!t lift in general but will almost certainly be a requirement for NFL guys.
Koing[/quote]
Just some notes:
Raw powerlifting squats are generally not that wide nor do they lift slowly. Generally speaking most powerlifters spend a large amount of time working speed and explosiveness. And the top deadlifters lift explosively and rarely “grind” reps.
I agree with LB scrambles point on the bench press ; it doesn’t have the practicality of some of these other lifts like cleans or snatches - or even squats as far as football. But like Koing said I also need to maintain my strength if not improve in it because no matter where I go for college bench press is in any college programs strength work ; there is some correlation between a strong bench and a lineman/linebacker with a strong punch. I can tell when taking on a block if a fullback or guard needs to get in the weight room.
As an RB I definitely do need the balance and coordination aspect of the O lifts. I would really like to get strong in them. I’m not weak in full power/hang cleans for someone who does them in moderation so I’d really like to spend more time learning the snatch
I have another question regarding the squats…
I am prioritizing my routine around and the O lifts and using ATG close stance squats in rotation with front squats as assistance . I have a squat max of 500 at parallel and my guess is I could probably only take around 450 if that ATG. I don’t want to use heavy set/rep schemes and work up super heavy in squats after my workouts but at the same time I’d like to keep improving and pushing towards 500+. Do any of you use any custom made squat cycles for back squats? I’d like to get away from some pyramid cycles that I typically run on them. Anybody just go for high reps - 10+? Or ramp in sets of 3-5?
I usually squat 2 times a week rotating back and front squats and my leg sessions are just brutal and a bitch to recover from. I WOULD LIKE to squat at least 3 times a week with back and front squats - basically at a higher frequency and volume. Any ideas of how to go about this ?
- Thanks
Chase
Depending on how old the poster is the bench press is a requirement of the combine they do in the states so he’ll have to do it anyway for that for scolarships.
It’s a pretty sh!t lift in general but will almost certainly be a requirement for NFL guys.
Koing
Thats correct, at the “offical NFL combine” as well as all the major college “pro days” the football players are put through a set of standardized tests like broadjump, 40 yard dash, shuttle run etc. Of all the tests, the ONLY one envolving lifting weight is the benchpress. Every player, irregardless of size, is asked to BP 225 lbs for as many reps as possible.
Obviously, since it is the only lifting test, it must have major significance in how a player preforms on the field. Yes?
Top 5 combine Bench Press Records.
- 51 reps
Justin Ernest (1999) Never made a NFL team. Never played a down. - 45 reps
Leif Larson (2000) Played two years for Buffalo.
Mike Kudla (2006) Cut by the Steelers in year one.
Mitch Petrus(2010) 5th round draft pick. Jury still out - 44 reps
Broderick Bunkley (2006) First round draft pick. Five years…six sacks. - 43 reps
Scott Young (2005)Hasn’t started in a game yet. - 42 reps
Tank Tyler (2007) Started in 08, 16 games, 41 tackles. On the bench since.
Issac Sopoaga (2004). Starter since 08, best total 41 tackles and 1 sack in 16 games.
Who are these guys??
Top 5 40-yard Dash Times.
- 4.12
Bo Jackson (1986) All Pro Running Back - 4.21
Deion Sanders (1989) NFL Hall of Fame - 4.24
Rondel Melendez (1999) Never heard of him - 4.25
Chris Johnson (2008) Plays here in Nashville. Best running back in the NFL today. - 4.28
Champ Bailey (1999) Nine time All Pro defensive back.
interesting.
it is a weird system.
still, when you have far more people who want to do something than places available for them to do their something you need some way of culling the numbers. arbitrary and unfair ways, to be sure, but what else you gonna do?
you could of course do a lottery… but people would rather think they are in control of the process (can do stuff to increase their chances) than to think that success might be due to a bunch of random factors.
selection for academics is just as bad / arbitrary. e.g., performance on the graduate record exam doesn’t reliably indicate performance in graduate school. and insofar as there is a weak prediction that probably comes down to people BELIEVING that their results mean that they can do it. and yet… the signifiant majority of graduate schools give 1/3 selection criteria weighting to performance on the graduate record exam. performance on interviews and program / job performance aren’t so correlated either. but… um… how else you gonna decide who gets in and who doesn’t???
Well gee thanks for the help guys lol.
Chase,
I’m sorry but i am the last person here to give you specific advice on your program, unless of course ya want to switch up and take up boxing. Use to fight, then trained kids and helped run a gym. Weight’s play a very minor role in the sport. If your training properly you simply don’t have the CNS or the energy to lift. Lost my day job and moved here to Nashville and took up PL just to get a workout. I simply don’t have the time commitment needed to train kids here due to my new job. Training kids properly is a 6 day a week thing, every night for 4 or 5 hours. Hopefully i can get back to that. I have just “discovered” Oly lifting in the last 6 months, starting with front squats.
But i will ask: What are your goals?
Do you want to play football in college?
And i’m confused, are you going into your senior year in high school?
And you say you want to squat 3x a week, how often are you sprinting?
How’s your 40?
And how is squating 3x a week going to effecting your 40?
If you are lifting just to lift whats the point? Do that when your old.
At your age set some really high goals and use the gym to get there.
If you want to play ball, and your 40 time sucks and your 2x a week leg workout really wears you out but doesn’t improve your 40 who cares?
If you just want to lift and not play ball then COMPETE in lifting. Oly or PL, pick one and put your heart into it.
But COMPETE. In whatever.
The worst thing is to blink, find yourself at age 30 saying “yeah, i could have played college ball, maybe pro” or “i could have been a top PL, or made a run at the Olympic weightlifting team”
Your at a critical junction age wise.
Sergio Martinez was a soccer player in Argentina at around your age. Walked into a gym cause someone told him boxing would help make him a tougher soccer player. He fell in love and despite starting really late put his heart and soul into it and today at 35 is world champ and a helluva fighter. And it was not easy.
If all you want to do is lift heavy stuff, for no real reason, i could care less.
You can do alot more than that if you really want to.
LB
[quote]delikurt wrote:
[quote]Chase44 wrote:
Exactly, I’m not trying to be an olympic lifter or body builder or powerlifting, I simply like lifting heavy shit though and would am interested in using the olympic lifts like Thibs does[/quote]
It might be worth checking out CT’s forum and asking him what he thinks about a hybrid program built around your 4 core lifts and weightlifting. I’d be interested in his response, one way or the other.
[/quote]
so? did anyone ask him???
[quote]SWAD1987 wrote:
[quote]delikurt wrote:
[quote]Chase44 wrote:
Exactly, I’m not trying to be an olympic lifter or body builder or powerlifting, I simply like lifting heavy shit though and would am interested in using the olympic lifts like Thibs does[/quote]
It might be worth checking out CT’s forum and asking him what he thinks about a hybrid program built around your 4 core lifts and weightlifting. I’d be interested in his response, one way or the other.
[/quote]
so? did anyone ask him???
[/quote]
Seems like he’s MIA.
I posted the question in his thread but he hasn’t gotten back to anyone yet.