Obama's Pastor

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
sherekahn wrote:
For the record, I don’t think anyone should ever have been a slave, had to ride in the back of the bus or drink at a separate
water fountain. I don’t like to hurt anybody’s feelings in any way. The finest officer I ever served under was a black major in Vietnam.

But, put things in perspective, very few whites ever owned a slave. Why did poor
southerners fight for the Confederacy?
All wars tend to be a rich man’s war and a poor man’s fight and the general was right: war really is hell.

I see why blacks have a problem forgetting
the discrimination they’ve been subjected
to but can you really expect whites to feel comfortable with Rev Wright’s sermons when
most whites have had little if anything to do with creating the situation?

While you or some other white person may have personally had little to do with the way things were that led to the Civil Rights movement and to Affirmative Action, why do whites in general act like no one and no institution holds any responsibility for it in spite if being in majority population?

Any time this discussion comes up, several white guys jump on the defensive and try to act like Chinese rail road workers are the exact same as slavery and centuries of disenfranchisement.

You can’t even get most to admit that blacks HAVE had to worse off than any other race in this country (save for the American Indian).

Why is that?

Me personally. I’m tired of hearing the whining. Every time black co-workers, friends, etc., start going on about it, I roll my eyes and walk off. Throughout my life I’ve heard this same sad song, over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and…well, you get the idea. Couple that with racist double standards (usually defended by playing the victim card), such a Affirmative Action, and it gets old. [/quote]

I am no victim (at least not in light of what my family before me dealt with). My parents were victims and my grandparents were victims. yes, it does piss me off that someone as intelligent as my dad, someone who went back to school, became a teacher, then became a principal all while preaching had to deal with that. You can see the toll it took over time. I would go as far as to say that most black men over the age of 40 have had it so rough that it contributes to earlier demise.

Why is this “whining”?

142

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
sherekahn wrote:
For the record, I don’t think anyone should ever have been a slave, had to ride in the back of the bus or drink at a separate
water fountain. I don’t like to hurt anybody’s feelings in any way. The finest officer I ever served under was a black major in Vietnam.

But, put things in perspective, very few whites ever owned a slave. Why did poor
southerners fight for the Confederacy?
All wars tend to be a rich man’s war and a poor man’s fight and the general was right: war really is hell.

I see why blacks have a problem forgetting
the discrimination they’ve been subjected
to but can you really expect whites to feel comfortable with Rev Wright’s sermons when
most whites have had little if anything to do with creating the situation?

While you or some other white person may have personally had little to do with the way things were that led to the Civil Rights movement and to Affirmative Action, why do whites in general act like no one and no institution holds any responsibility for it in spite if being in majority population?

Any time this discussion comes up, several white guys jump on the defensive and try to act like Chinese rail road workers are the exact same as slavery and centuries of disenfranchisement.

You can’t even get most to admit that blacks HAVE had to worse off than any other race in this country (save for the American Indian).

Why is that?

Me personally. I’m tired of hearing the whining. Every time black co-workers, friends, etc., start going on about it, I roll my eyes and walk off. Throughout my life I’ve heard this same sad song, over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and…well, you get the idea. Couple that with racist double standards (usually defended by playing the victim card), such a Affirmative Action, and it gets old.

I am no victim (at least not in light of what my family before me dealt with). My parents were victims and my grandparents were victims. yes, it does piss me off that someone as intelligent as my dad, someone who went back to school, became a teacher, then became a principal all while preaching had to deal with that. You can see the tool it took over time. I would go as far as to say that most black men over the age of 40 have had it so rough that it contributes to earlier demise.

Why is this “whining”?[/quote]

Because I’ve heard this same story at least once a week.

143

[quote]Joe84 wrote:

So what? 1975 was over 30 years ago, people like you who like to play the race card just perpetuate racism, you tell your kids how alwful it was to be a black man back in the 50s and plant hate into their heads and create racism… so now we have black kids who have never been apart of any real racism who feel like they’ve been wronged by whites, and it just perpetuates more racism and it gives them that chip on the shoulder attitude and if you left it alone it wounldn’t exsist as much.

[/quote]

Because leaving it alone when it appears causes it to stop?

Prove this.

What “race card” have I played? How am I a victim and where have I written that I am being held back personally?

144

[quote]pookie wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
dk44 wrote:

All i said was that associations are important.

And they are very important. All the more important when the associations completely undermine the image you have been trying to sell.

It’s not as if his pastor is his only association either. Anyone in politics has to forge ties far and wide to be able to round up enough support to get elected.

I’d be surprised if you could find a single successful politician who doesn’t have a few questionable “allies” in his rolodex.

The very nature of a democracy means that anyone who wants a realistic chance of being elected needs to court voters of all kinds and beliefs. That may look unprincipled or come off as pandering, but the very nature of our political systems make this reality inevitable. That’s why many of the more principled, uncompromising would-be politicians either never enter the race, or do but waste years being also-rans.

McCain has John Hagee and Rod Parsley as some of his “associations” and I don’t see much hackles being raised about them. Why does he get to enjoy support from religious nutcases and not Obama?

Why would the views of Obama’s pastor matter more than Hagee’s (Catholics are evil) or Parsley’s (we must go to war to eradicate Islam) matter for McCain? Why is it understood that McCain profits from the support of these people (and the wide audiences they can reach) but that Obama will be some kind of weak puppet that’ll get played?

McCain and Clinton get to be associated with shady, weird or even close-to-completely-nuts characters with little or no consequences (at least none that aren’t attributed to “meh, politicians…”), but Obama has his whole character being impugned based on his having a vociferous pastor at church? It’s a little odd, no?

[/quote]

Obama’s pastor was his mentor, allegedly converted him to Christianity, presided at his wedding…

This guy is much more than a political ally.

145

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Because I’ve heard this same story at least once a week.[/quote]

Then quit being a victim and either change jobs or quit listening.

That is what you are, right? A victim of listening to complaints by black people?

146

The real key here is that this will matter to the voters if Obama can’t separate himself from Wright.

Wright’s comments are much more in line from what independents and White Democrats would expect to hear from Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson - Obama was selling himself as “post-racial”.

The Rev. Wright’s statements sound explicitly racist to most white people in the country. And some of his other statements sound like loony conspiracy theories - does the average black person really believe the CIA invented AIDS and unleashed it in the black community?

The principle that only when people of the “oppressed race” say this stuff it is “not racist” may be persuasive to blacks and hard-left liberals - so thirty percent of the country or so - but it is total BS to the other seventy percent. Of those, registered Republicans are about thirty three percent of the population and likely don’t matter to the calculation. But you’re still looking at almost forty percent of the population that is going to be extremely turned off by this stuff.

Even in big blue states like Ohio, Michigan, New York, and especially Pennsylvania, the percentages are probably no better than that, as they have more registered Democrats but also more independents - fewer Republicans. If Obama looks like an anti-white candidate in the image of a Sharpton or a Jackson to those people, or the least bit racist, he loses the primary. If he wins the primary, it hurts him in the general election, particularly against McCain, who has inherent appeal to those independent voters who will be so hotly contested.

147

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:

Because I’ve heard this same story at least once a week.

Then quit being a victim and either change jobs or quit listening.

That is what you are, right? A victim of listening to complaints by black people?[/quote]

Like I said, I roll my eyes and walk off. But, sometimes I can’t help but overhear the complaining about how the white manager only wrote them up for being late (again) because they’re black.

148

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:

Because I’ve heard this same story at least once a week.

Then quit being a victim and either change jobs or quit listening.

That is what you are, right? A victim of listening to complaints by black people?

Like I said, I roll my eyes and walk off. But, sometimes I can’t help but overhear the complaining about how the white manager only wrote them up for being late (again) because they’re black. [/quote]

Dude, that is not what we are discussing. I am not talking about someone getting fired on their day off like in the movie Friday or for smoking weed in the janitor’s closet.

Clearly, you just brought this up for fun, right?

In the military, you can’t be late to work. Maybe they just need more discipline.

149

[quote]Professor X wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I’d argue that the Native Americans got the shortest end of the stick by far.

Jared Diamond’s “Guns, Germs and Steel” also offers the perspective that the Native Americans had no immunity whatsoever which resulted in millions of deaths in North America alone. When Lewis and Clark traversed North America, they found entire villages completely empty.

Are whites glad this happened? Nope. But we must deal with the situation as it is, not as it was.

Gee, now that we have established a hierarchy of wronged races, how does you pointing out that Italians had trouble finding jobs in New York is equal to slavery make any sense? [/quote]

We agreed that Jim Crow and the KKK were bad things. But there was an entire section of the country north of the Mason-Dixon line that didn’t have these, nor did it have slavery. It had ‘institutionalized racism,’ as you put it. I’ve offered the opinion that many other races experience it in greater or lesser degrees, yet still manage to succeed.

I have a hard time believing that ‘institutional racism’ is holding anyone back today, especially considering the amount of brown-skinned people from the Indian subcontinent who are now amongst the wealthiest people in this country today.

In other words, I think “institutional racism” is just another specious complaint.

150

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:

Because I’ve heard this same story at least once a week.

Then quit being a victim and either change jobs or quit listening.

That is what you are, right? A victim of listening to complaints by black people?

Like I said, I roll my eyes and walk off. But, sometimes I can’t help but overhear the complaining about how the white manager only wrote them up for being late (again) because they’re black. [/quote]

I should start sharing my stories from the Navy. I had a division of 50 people of mixed race. Guess who took up all of my time?

151

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Joe84 wrote:

So what? 1975 was over 30 years ago, people like you who like to play the race card just perpetuate racism, you tell your kids how alwful it was to be a black man back in the 50s and plant hate into their heads and create racism… so now we have black kids who have never been apart of any real racism who feel like they’ve been wronged by whites, and it just perpetuates more racism and it gives them that chip on the shoulder attitude and if you left it alone it wounldn’t exsist as much.

Because leaving it alone when it appears causes it to stop?

Prove this.

What “race card” have I played? How am I a victim and where have I written that I am being held back personally?[/quote]

No you haven’t personally said you were a victim but you’re going on about how blacks had it so hard and it’s a typical attitude that many blacks have, in my opinion.

And no I can’t prove but I think it’s a pretty logical conclusion, if the previous generation doesn’t perpetuate it than the current generation won’t embrace it.

I don’t personally know any north american blacks, (which are the only ones that seem to complain about it), so I’ll use natives as an example - look at natives who live on a reserve and those who live off the reserve, there is a huge difference in attitude, those who live off work, do not expect hand outs, and their children integrate well with others without racist attitudes, the opposite is true for those who live on reseves…and how do I know this you ask? because I grew up near a reserve and went to a school that was over 1/3 native. Now I know it’s not the same as blacks but my point is that the parents create the next generation of attitudes.

and ill stop going off topic now…

152

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

We agreed that Jim Crow and the KKK were bad things. But there was an entire section of the country north of the Mason-Dixon line that didn’t have these, nor did it have slavery. It had ‘institutionalized racism,’ as you put it. I’ve offered the opinion that many other races experience it in greater or lesser degrees, yet still manage to succeed. [/quote]

Name the races that had it worse in this country but managed to succeed. I thought you put Native Americans first on the list. They are now successes?

[quote]

I have a hard time believing that ‘institutional racism’ is holding anyone back today, especially considering the amount of brown-skinned people from the Indian subcontinent who are now amongst the wealthiest people in this country today.

In other words, I think “institutional racism” is just another specious complaint. [/quote]

I think “institutional racism” has lost its potency BECAUSE of Affirmative Action and The Civil Rights movement.

You, on the other hand, seem to actually believe this to not be the case.

Wow.

153

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:

Because I’ve heard this same story at least once a week.

Then quit being a victim and either change jobs or quit listening.

That is what you are, right? A victim of listening to complaints by black people?

Like I said, I roll my eyes and walk off. But, sometimes I can’t help but overhear the complaining about how the white manager only wrote them up for being late (again) because they’re black.

Dude, that is not what we are discussing. I am not talking about someone getting fired on their day off like in the movie Friday or for smoking weed in the janitor’s closet.

Clearly, you just brought this up for fun, right?

In the military, you can’t be late to work. Maybe they just need more discipline.[/quote]

I’m explaining why many of us white guys are bored senseless with the “way things were” routine.

154

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:

Because I’ve heard this same story at least once a week.

Then quit being a victim and either change jobs or quit listening.

That is what you are, right? A victim of listening to complaints by black people?

Like I said, I roll my eyes and walk off. But, sometimes I can’t help but overhear the complaining about how the white manager only wrote them up for being late (again) because ethey’re black.

Dude, that is not what we are discussing. I am not talking about someone getting fired on their day off like in the movie Friday or for smoking weed in the janitor’s closet.

Clearly, you just brought this up for fun, right?

In the military, you can’t be late to work. Maybe they just need more discipline.

I’m explaining why many of us white guys are bored senseless with the “way things were” routine.[/quote]

And you did this by relating a man not getting a job and the effectiveness of Affirmative Action in correcting this to some fool who is late to work and gets fired.

Yet you don’t see why someone might just take offense?

155

[quote]pookie wrote:

It’s not as if his pastor is his only association either. Anyone in politics has to forge ties far and wide to be able to round up enough support to get elected.

I’d be surprised if you could find a single successful politician who doesn’t have a few questionable “allies” in his rolodex.

The very nature of a democracy means that anyone who wants a realistic chance of being elected needs to court voters of all kinds and beliefs. That may look unprincipled or come off as pandering, but the very nature of our political systems make this reality inevitable. That’s why many of the more principled, uncompromising would-be politicians either never enter the race, or do but waste years being also-rans.

McCain has John Hagee and Rod Parsley as some of his “associations” and I don’t see much hackles being raised about them. Why does he get to enjoy support from religious nutcases and not Obama?

Why would the views of Obama’s pastor matter more than Hagee’s (Catholics are evil) or Parsley’s (we must go to war to eradicate Islam) matter for McCain? Why is it understood that McCain profits from the support of these people (and the wide audiences they can reach) but that Obama will be some kind of weak puppet that’ll get played?

McCain and Clinton get to be associated with shady, weird or even close-to-completely-nuts characters with little or no consequences (at least none that aren’t attributed to “meh, politicians…”), but Obama has his whole character being impugned based on his having a vociferous pastor at church? It’s a little odd, no?

[/quote]

The difference is one of the degree and nature of the associations. McCain received Hagee’s endorsement, and received Parsley’s endorsement. McCain met Parsley exactly once, at the rally in Ohio. I don’t think McCain has met Hagee more than once or twice. Obama received Farrakhan’s endorsement. I don’t know if he’s met with Farrakhan.

Obama sought out Wrignt, attended his church for two decades, donated thousands of dollars to his church, based some of his speeches and his second memoir on some of Wright’s speeches, had Wright marry him and his wife, had Wright baptize his kids, and used him as a counselor and “sounding board” for political ideas, and had him on his steering committee for his presidential candidacy (but removed Wright just prior to officially declaring, for some strange reason…).

BTW, w/r/t to Hagee, he apparently denies being anti-Catholic: http://www.jhm.org/ME2/Sites/dirmod.asp?sid=&type=gen&mod=Core+Pages&gid=47BEB58F9EF24337835DB74C0E0760D9&SiteID=4AC79C9B25B24DF3AF21C42311BE3921

I don’t know anything about the man - had never heard of him until the McCain endorsement flap.

156

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation…

Did he stick his fingers in his ears when his pastor spoke or did he stand up when the pastor spoke?

He looks like he is weasel wording trying to pretend that he wasn’t aware of this for years. Doesn’t ring true for me.

157

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation…

Did he stick his fingers in his ears when his pastor spoke or did he stand up when the pastor spoke?

He looks like he is weasel wording trying to pretend that he wasn’t aware of this for years. Doesn’t ring true for me.[/quote]

I have slept through many church services. I hope no one blames me for what a pastor said while I was thinking about the girl in the choir.

158

[quote]Professor X wrote:
And you did this by relating a man not getting a job and the effectiveness of Affirmative Action in correcting this to some fool who is late to work and gets fired.

Yet you don’t see why someone might just take offense?[/quote]

Might take offense at me? Why? Because my life experiences don’t count for jack? I’ve experienced far too many instances of black folk falling back on the racism card to even care anymore. Oh, and Affirmative Action is just the kind of crap that breeds my attitude.

159

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
And you did this by relating a man not getting a job and the effectiveness of Affirmative Action in correcting this to some fool who is late to work and gets fired.

Yet you don’t see why someone might just take offense?

Might take offense at me? Why? Because my life experiences don’t count for jack? I’ve experienced far too many instances of black folk playing falling back on the racism card to even care anymore. Oh, and Affirmative Action is just the kind of crap that breeds my attitude. [/quote]

The only argument that makes any sense is whether it is needed TODAY AND RIGHT NOW, not whether it was needed in the first place.

Are you saying you don’t agree?

160

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
And you did this by relating a man not getting a job and the effectiveness of Affirmative Action in correcting this to some fool who is late to work and gets fired.

Yet you don’t see why someone might just take offense?

Might take offense at me? Why? Because my life experiences don’t count for jack? I’ve experienced far too many instances of black folk playing falling back on the racism card to even care anymore. Oh, and Affirmative Action is just the kind of crap that breeds my attitude.

The only argument that makes any sense is whether it is needed TODAY AND RIGHT NOW, not whether it was needed in the first place.

Are you saying you don’t agree?[/quote]

What’s needed today isn’t affirmative action. What’s needed today is for people who stop making excuses.