Obama's Pastor

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Professor X wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Doesn’t Oprah go to Obama’s church?

I wonder why she’s not taking any major flack…

She does. But she’s not running for anything.

Then let me ask, do you think Oprah’s judgment is now flawed because of going to a certain church?

I heard women shouldn’t be pastors in one church I went to. Obviously I don’t agree with this. That didn’t cause me to boycott the church. That would be because I went to church for deeper reasons than a particular pastor’s own personal philosophy.

Professor X,

Is the level of antipathy (and I know I’m asking you to speak for the black community as a whole, and that’s not fair) for white people at such a level that leaders such a Obama can’t rise above those feelings?

Will black people always harbor some sort of ill will against whites? The reason I’m asking is that I’d expect a man such as Obama’s pastor at least, a man of God to be forgiving and a peace maker. Is what white people did to black people beyond forgiveness?[/quote]

No. Give it a couple of generations. For now, the wounds are too fresh. Plenty of people still alive today witnessed segregation.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I am officially a Democrat![/quote]

Hillary thanks you.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I don’t think that’s it at all - I think the relationship brings his judgment into question, and the whole matter undercuts the image he was trying to sell: the post-racial, non-politician candidate of change.[/quote]

I’m trying to understand why his judgement would be questioned? It’s pretty clear that if the relationship goes back 20 years, Obama was probably not even expecting to ever be running as president back then.

Would good judgment have entailed his refusing to attend any church where a pastor ever said anything controversial? Should he ensure that his good friends are perfectly boring and conventional?

If he’s not buying in the conspiracy nuttiness, why must he buy in the racist, hate America one?

Anyone who believes that electing Obama will solve the race problems of America is naive. Changes of that magnitude takes generations to happen. As for “non-politician” politicians… well, come on.

No resume? I’d agree that his lack of experience will be his greatest problem. Especially since McCain is older than God and has (or at least can claim) lots of it.

But I think it may be a mistake to dismiss his charisma and natural communicator skills as being irrelevant. A president can always surround himself with competent advisors to acquire the experience “on the job.” With the complexities of modern life, even the most experienced candidate cannot be expected to know all he needs to know for every decision he’ll have to make. But at some point, another part of a president’s job is to communicate with the people, with foreign head of states, etc. A president who is charismatic and a good communicator can probably accomplish a lot more in ways of diplomacy and negotiations than a president with a confrontational style can.

I think it’s fair to question Obama’s weaknesses; but not while at the same time dismissing his strengths.

Just for sh*ts and giggles, here’s what Obama had to say about Don Imus back when the whole “nappy headed hoes” controversy was storming:

EXCERPT:

“I understand MSNBC has suspended Mr. Imus,” Obama told ABC News, “but I would also say that there’s nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. And I would hope that NBC ends up having that same attitude.”

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Professor X wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Doesn’t Oprah go to Obama’s church?

I wonder why she’s not taking any major flack…

She does. But she’s not running for anything.

Then let me ask, do you think Oprah’s judgment is now flawed because of going to a certain church?

I heard women shouldn’t be pastors in one church I went to. Obviously I don’t agree with this. That didn’t cause me to boycott the church. That would be because I went to church for deeper reasons than a particular pastor’s own personal philosophy.

Professor X,

Is the level of antipathy (and I know I’m asking you to speak for the black community as a whole, and that’s not fair) for white people at such a level that leaders such a Obama can’t rise above those feelings? [/quote]

Yes. You can see it in this thread. The real issues get drowned out because whites are immediately on the defensive any time that the effects of racism on black people are discussed. You get people relating some jackass getting fired at work for being late who then blames race to someone before AA in this country who couldn’t get a job despite credentials better than many being hired all based on race. They ignore the massive effect that those years AFTER slavery had and how the lack of history (since our own was obliterated) effects the American Black family today. They will relate all discrimination to it as if there is no difference or as if Jews had it just as bad as blacks in this country.

No one wants to admit fault and that includes some blacks who blame every single set back in life on someone else.

The bottom line is that it is all continuous. You can’t look at the black family in 2008 and act like it popped out of nowhere. Just like poverty can become a never ending cycle throughout generations that very few can pull themselves out of, the fact that dad can’t get that job back in 1972 had a huge effect on why junior went to a school where the gang activity was too intense to allow any real learning to take place and why he ended up in jail instead of graduating from a University.

[quote]
Will black people always harbor some sort of ill will against whites? The reason I’m asking is that I’d expect a man such as Obama’s pastor at least, a man of God to be forgiving and a peace maker. Is what white people did to black people beyond forgiveness?[/quote]

Ill will? That implies harm. Where has this pastor written that he wants to hurt white people?

What people want is acknowledgment of what actually happened. They want for there not to be some extensive downplay of how bad blacks were treated in this country as if every other race had to deal with the exact same level of it.

I doubt many black people in 2008 are walking around flipping off white people as individuals. The institution of White America is a different story.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Just for sh*ts and giggles, here’s what Obama had to say about Don Imus back when the whole “nappy headed hoes” controversy was storming:

EXCERPT:

“I understand MSNBC has suspended Mr. Imus,” Obama told ABC News, “but I would also say that there’s nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. And I would hope that NBC ends up having that same attitude.”[/quote]

What are you getting at by posting this? Most blacks I know couldn’t give two shits about Imus.

Obama is a politician. He has to say that.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I don’t think that’s it at all - I think the relationship brings his judgment into question, and the whole matter undercuts the image he was trying to sell: the post-racial, non-politician candidate of change.

pookie wrote:
I’m trying to understand why his judgement would be questioned? It’s pretty clear that if the relationship goes back 20 years, Obama was probably not even expecting to ever be running as president back then.

Would good judgment have entailed his refusing to attend any church where a pastor ever said anything controversial? Should he ensure that his good friends are perfectly boring and conventional?[/quote]

No - it would, however, involve removing himself from a church in which the head pastor routinely expressed these types of views - which seems to be the case here. This wasn’t a one-time comment - this was a series of sermons to the congregation incorporating these views. Assuming he knew he wanted to run for either national or state-wide office, at that point his judgment should have kicked in on this.

As far as his friends - only those he looks to for guidance and installs in positions in his campaign. Though I would think if McCain’s best friend were found to be a KKK member, it would be legitimate to question McCain’s beliefs on race too. Whether you believed his answers would depend on how he addressed the situation. People with whom one chooses to associate say something about them - and people whom people choose as mentors and counselors say something about them.

What differentiates him from John Edwards?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Professor X wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Doesn’t Oprah go to Obama’s church?

I wonder why she’s not taking any major flack…

She does. But she’s not running for anything.

Then let me ask, do you think Oprah’s judgment is now flawed because of going to a certain church?

I heard women shouldn’t be pastors in one church I went to. Obviously I don’t agree with this. That didn’t cause me to boycott the church. That would be because I went to church for deeper reasons than a particular pastor’s own personal philosophy.

Professor X,

Is the level of antipathy (and I know I’m asking you to speak for the black community as a whole, and that’s not fair) for white people at such a level that leaders such a Obama can’t rise above those feelings?

Yes. You can see it in this thread. The real issues get drowned out because whites are immediately on the defensive any time that the effects of racism on black people are discussed. You get people relating some jackass getting fired at work for being late who then blames race to someone before AA in this country who couldn’t get a job despite credentials better than many being hired all based on race. They ignore the massive effect that those years AFTER slavery had and how the lack of history (since our own was obliterated) effects the American Black family today. They will relate all discrimination to it as if there is no difference or as if Jews had it just as bad as blacks in this country.

No one wants to admit fault and that includes some blacks who blame every single set back in life on someone else.

The bottom line is that it is all continuous. You can’t look at the black family in 2008 and act like it popped out of nowhere. Just like poverty can become a never ending cycle throughout generations that very few can pull themselves out of, the fact that dad can’t get that job back in 1972 had a huge effect on why junior went to a school where the gang activity was too intense to allow any real learning to take place and why he ended up in jail instead of graduating from a University.

Will black people always harbor some sort of ill will against whites? The reason I’m asking is that I’d expect a man such as Obama’s pastor at least, a man of God to be forgiving and a peace maker. Is what white people did to black people beyond forgiveness?

Ill will? That implies harm. Where has this pastor written that he wants to hurt white people?

What people want is acknowledgment of what actually happened. They want for there not to be some extensive downplay of how bad blacks were treated in this country as if every other race had to deal with the exact same level of it.

I doubt many black people in 2008 are walking around flipping off white people as individuals. The institution of White America is a different story.
[/quote]

Thank you, Professor. A good read. I can certainly understand that there’d be a certain level of anger over 400 years of horror, though I know I’ll never know what its truly like to be so discrimated against and so on.

The trouble I see is: we (and I’m presuming to speak for white people) don’t know how to fix it. We’re at a loss of how to get rid of the blight of racism and its consequences. Everything we try is basically a fuck up, like the Great Society program.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Just for sh*ts and giggles, here’s what Obama had to say about Don Imus back when the whole “nappy headed hoes” controversy was storming:

EXCERPT:

“I understand MSNBC has suspended Mr. Imus,” Obama told ABC News, “but I would also say that there’s nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. And I would hope that NBC ends up having that same attitude.”

Professor X wrote:
What are you getting at by posting this? Most blacks I know couldn’t give two shits about Imus.

Obama is a politician. He has to say that.[/quote]

He seems to want to hold Don Imus to a higher standard than his own advisers. I guess it’s technically not going against what he said, since he said “staff” and “working for him” - though I do note that the right Rev. Wright did step down from Obama’s spiritual advisory committee a couple days ago…

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Just for sh*ts and giggles, here’s what Obama had to say about Don Imus back when the whole “nappy headed hoes” controversy was storming:

EXCERPT:

“I understand MSNBC has suspended Mr. Imus,” Obama told ABC News, “but I would also say that there’s nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. And I would hope that NBC ends up having that same attitude.”[/quote]

At least Imus was being lambasted for his own comments.

Obama is being taken to task for things said by his pastor. I’ve yet to see him say anything that would lend any credence to the notion that he shares any of Wright’s more extreme views.

He has also rejected support from Farrakhan calling his anti-semitic views unacceptable.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Though I would think if McCain’s best friend were found to be a KKK member, it would be legitimate to question McCain’s beliefs on race too. [/quote]

So, now you’re comparing Wright’s comments to the KKK? What the hell’s the matter with you?

[quote]pookie wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Just for sh*ts and giggles, here’s what Obama had to say about Don Imus back when the whole “nappy headed hoes” controversy was storming:

EXCERPT:

“I understand MSNBC has suspended Mr. Imus,” Obama told ABC News, “but I would also say that there’s nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. And I would hope that NBC ends up having that same attitude.”

At least Imus was being lambasted for his own comments.

Obama is being taken to task for things said by his pastor. I’ve yet to see him say anything that would lend any credence to the notion that he shares any of Wright’s more extreme views.

He has also rejected support from Farrakhan calling his anti-semitic views unacceptable.

[/quote]

It is like none of that is enough. They can’t pick on what he is actually saying (because he avoids mud slinging himself most of the time and because he keeps his message simple to avoid that in the first place) so they pick on what other people said…and then claim he was in the room…and then claim his judgment is in doubt because he heard it and didn’t run screaming from the room.

Let me know when this starts to make any sense because it doesn’t for me.

[quote]lixy wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Though I would think if McCain’s best friend were found to be a KKK member, it would be legitimate to question McCain’s beliefs on race too.

So, now you’re comparing Wright’s comments to the KKK? What the hell’s the matter with you?[/quote]

No - I was using a hypothetical example of John McCain having a connection to a racist. The comparison ends at the “racist” part - I’m not saying Wright is like a black version of the KKK - I just couldn’t think of a good example of a less-racist white organization. I guess I should have said “Lew Rockwell.”

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It is like none of that is enough. They can’t pick on what he is actually saying (because he avoids mud slinging himself most of the time and because he keeps his message simple to avoid that in the first place) so they pick on what other people said…and then claim he was in the room…and then claim his judgment is in doubt because he heard it and didn’t run screaming from the room.

Let me know when this starts to make any sense because it doesn’t for me.

[/quote]

It’s more than that - he actually doesn’t say much of anything on the subject - which is why statements of his advisers lead to speculation. Particularly when they tail well with statements made by his wife.

Obama, when discussing Wright, has indicated that if he had heard Wright repeatedly make these types of statements, he would have left.

From an interview with Major Garrett:

[i]GARRETT: Sir, would you have �?? would you have quit the church had you heard them personally?
OBAMA: You know, I guess �?? keep in mind that, just to provide more context, this is somebody who I had known for 20 years. Pastor Wright has been a pastor for 30 years. He’s an ex-Marine. He is somebody who is a biblical scholar, has spoken at theological seminaries all across the country, from the University of Chicago to Hampton. And so he is a well- regarded preacher. And somebody who is known for talking about the social gospel.

But most of the time, when I’m in church, he’s talking about Jesus, God, faith, values, caring for the poor, those �?? family, those were the messages that I was hearing.

And so you know, I think that the statements that have been strung together are compiled out of hundred of sermons that he delivered over the course of his lifetime. But, obviously, they are ones that are, from my perspective, completely unacceptable and inexcusable.

And if I had thought that that was the tenor or tone on an ongoing basis of his sermons, then, yes, I don’t think that it would have been reflective of my values or my faith experience.

GARRETT: So, quick yes or no. If had you heard them in person you would have quit?
OBAMA: If I had heard them repeated, I would have quit. I mean, obviously, understand that �?? understand that, you know, this is somebody who is like an uncle. If you have �?? to me. He’s somebody who helped me find Christ. And somebody who always talked to me in very powerful ways about relationship to God and our obligations to the poor.

If somebody makes a mistake, then obviously, you recognize �?? I make mistakes. We all make mistakes. If I thought that that was the repeated tenor of the church, then I wouldn’t feel comfortable there.

But, frankly, that has not been my experience at Trinity United Church of Christ. [/i]

So, whether you believe him on whether he knew about Wright’s views gets to be kind of important - at least regarding base hypocrisy.

The judgment thing is big - after GW I’m disinclined to want politicians who are inclined to wishful thinking about the problems they might face.

Interesting article on Wright’s “black liberation” theology in the Asia Times, from an Australian anthropologist:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/JC18Aa01.html

I’m completely unfamiliar with this stuff, so I’d be interested in hearing critiques or disagreements with the article from those more familiar.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
No - it would, however, involve removing himself from a church in which the head pastor routinely expressed these types of views - which seems to be the case here.[/quote]

It seems? Does Wright really express those views “routinely?” The various blogs and articles seem to reference a very specific sermon given by Wright which wasn’t attended by Obama.

Wright is quoted as praising Farrakhan. Obama has rejected his endorsement. Clearly, the men don’t see eye to eye on at least this issue.

I still get the feeling that because Obama has yet to put his foot in his mouth, people are looking for persons in his entourage who have said controversial or inflammatory things and then claim Obama guilty by association.

Well he has been distancing himself from Wright; saying he disagrees with him on certain views (I still haven’t seen quotes of him defending or explaining Wright’s views); un-inviting Wright to speak at his Feb 10 announcement, etc.

It’s always possible to criticize Obama for not distancing himself more or sooner; but then again with a 20 year history it’d be rather hypocritical of him to suddenly cut off all contact.

Undoubtedly. But people to whom we relate for spiritual guidance might not be relevant in every other part of our lives. Obama might have found something in Wright that resonates with him and his family as it pertains to their spiritual life, but I still wonder how much of an impact, if any, it has on his political thinking.

I think Obama has more charisma in his left pinky than three Edwards put together.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

So, whether you believe him on whether he knew about Wright’s views gets to be kind of important - at least regarding base hypocrisy.

The judgment thing is big - after GW I’m disinclined to want politicians who are inclined to wishful thinking about the problems they might face.[/quote]

I am still waiting on one of you to show what was so bad about the speech his pastor made. When it is observed in context, it sounds much different than I am sure “Conservative America” is making it sound.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Interesting article on Wright’s “black liberation” theology in the Asia Times, from an Australian anthropologist:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/JC18Aa01.html

I’m completely unfamiliar with this stuff, so I’d be interested in hearing critiques or disagreements with the article from those more familiar.[/quote]

[quote]Christ is black therefore not because of some cultural or psychological need of black people, but because and only because Christ really enters into our world where the poor were despised and the black are, disclosing that he is with them enduring humiliation and pain and transforming oppressed slaves into liberating servants.

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community … Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love. [1]

In the New Testament, Jesus is not for all, but for the oppressed, the poor and unwanted of society, and against oppressors … Either God is for black people in their fight for liberation and against the white oppressors, or he is not [Cone].

[/quote]

I always enjoy reading Spengler. This seems like a subset of liberation theology in general. This is a good read:

http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/33-black-theology

[quote]Professor X wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:

So, whether you believe him on whether he knew about Wright’s views gets to be kind of important - at least regarding base hypocrisy.

The judgment thing is big - after GW I’m disinclined to want politicians who are inclined to wishful thinking about the problems they might face.

I am still waiting on one of you to show what was so bad about the speech his pastor made. When it is observed in context, it sounds much different than I am sure “Conservative America” is making it sound.[/quote]

He was talking “while being black.” Duh.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
No - it would, however, involve removing himself from a church in which the head pastor routinely expressed these types of views - which seems to be the case here.

pookie wrote:
It seems? Does Wright really express those views “routinely?” The various blogs and articles seem to reference a very specific sermon given by Wright which wasn’t attended by Obama.

Wright is quoted as praising Farrakhan. Obama has rejected his endorsement. Clearly, the men don’t see eye to eye on at least this issue.

I still get the feeling that because Obama has yet to put his foot in his mouth, people are looking for persons in his entourage who have said controversial or inflammatory things and then claim Obama guilty by association.[/quote]

The newswires reported that ABC had investigated a sampling of “dozens” of his sermons, and found in that sample “repeated denunciations of the United States.” I’m sure we don’t have an archive of his entire body of work, but the fact that from whatever the church itself had recorded and put up for sale yielded that many examples leads me to extrapolate that they were routine.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
This wasn’t a one-time comment - this was a series of sermons to the congregation incorporating these views. Assuming he knew he wanted to run for either national or state-wide office, at that point his judgment should have kicked in on this.

pookie wrote:
Well he has been distancing himself from Wright; saying he disagrees with him on certain views (I still haven’t seen quotes of him defending or explaining Wright’s views); un-inviting Wright to speak at his Feb 10 announcement, etc.

It’s always possible to criticize Obama for not distancing himself more or sooner; but then again with a 20 year history it’d be rather hypocritical of him to suddenly cut off all contact.[/quote]

My point on his judgment is that he initiated the distancing quite late in the game - essentially right before he announcement of his candidacy. No one’s questioning his intellect - which makes me think he was engaging in wishful thinking, but was convinced otherwise by some political pros later, once they got a handle on Wright’s views.

The timing, again (along with the very specific wording of the denial), also makes me question Obama’s denials about what he knew about Wright’s views.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
As far as his friends - only those he looks to for guidance and installs in positions in his campaign. Though I would think if McCain’s best friend were found to be a KKK member, it would be legitimate to question McCain’s beliefs on race too. Whether you believed his answers would depend on how he addressed the situation. People with whom one chooses to associate say something about them - and people whom people choose as mentors and counselors say something about them.

pookie wrote:
Undoubtedly. But people to whom we relate for spiritual guidance might not be relevant in every other part of our lives. Obama might have found something in Wright that resonates with him and his family as it pertains to their spiritual life, but I still wonder how much of an impact, if any, it has on his political thinking.[/quote]

From reading more about Wright’s theology, it seems the spiritual and political are quite intertwined there.

It’s definitely possible that Obama disagreed with all of Wright’s views - but as a candidate for public office, the burden is on Obama to answer legitimate questions that arise because of his choices in mentors and advisers.

In Obama’s case, I think you have more questions because he has said so little on point - and he doesn’t have a long enough track record for a lot of people to be comfortable that he has demonstrated enough through his actions to immediately answer such questions.

Edwards had a lot of charisma - he just didn’t have nearly as good speechwriters. How many times can you give the same speech about growing up in a mill. He was also hurt by being an ostentatious rich guy trying to preach a class-warfare message.