[quote]Professor X wrote:
Perhaps someone else more qualified on paper was qualified because their parents were never denied jobs in the first place leading to an increased income for that individual to be raised with a great education and quality family time since mom didn’t work three jobs.[/quote]
But perhaps Prof X, perhaps the qualified person was not silver spooned, perhaps they suffered setbacks of the very same nature, how is the playing field even then?
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
The citing of all Wright has done for him is to establish the depth of the relationship - which makes it more unlikely that Obama didn’t know. I’m sure there is nothing in the records that Obama knows about that could disprove his very carefully worded statements.[/quote]
I don’t dispute that Obama’s relationship with Wright is more involved than McCain’s one with Hagee.
I’m trying to assess how much it really matters, and while I can’t claim to have heard every speech or interview Obama has given, I have yet to hear one where I can detect some of the nuttiness that seems to afflict Wright on certain issues.
While I’m far from agreeing with Obama on every one of his stances, I find that he at least seems to be intelligent, educated and reasonable enough to be able to discern valid ideas and proposals from conspiracy theorist stories.
Maybe he didn’t think people would question whether he believed AIDS to be a CIA plot against black people.
Would you have links detailing those statements? I’ve found many references to his disagreeing (the “old uncle” quote) but not those where he defends or explains them.
But the gist of this thread goes far beyond a robust relationship. It questions whether Obama is able to resist the influence of Wright’s nutty sermons and many have apparently concluded that he can’t.
[quote]Molotov_Coktease wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Perhaps someone else more qualified on paper was qualified because their parents were never denied jobs in the first place leading to an increased income for that individual to be raised with a great education and quality family time since mom didn’t work three jobs.
But perhaps Prof X, perhaps the qualified person was not silver spooned, perhaps they suffered setbacks of the very same nature, how is the playing field even then? [/quote]
By looking at this on a grand scale. There were BY FAR more black Americans held back from advancement in nearly every area of society than any other race in this country. It took several pages for people just to admit and it had to be coerced. Affirmative Action, again, had a place at its inception. the only valid argument is whether it still does.
Many of you seem ok with the idea of an entire race of people continuing to be held back by systemic racism as if it would repair itself.
Please explain how that was going to happen when whites are the majority and the effects of that second class citizenship by blacks weren’t easing up enough to allow equality?
How is it so many are ok with justifying war, which has its dark side and innocents destroyed, but aren’t ok with it when freedom and equality is fought for in this country?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The man is a racist and has said much more than God Damn America. [/quote]
Maybe so. I haven’t read the so-called racist comments he made, but those were known for a long time now. Everybody was aware of that. The recent campaign to smear Obama based on his pastor’s speech was sparked by the “God damn America” bit. You even presented the fact that he “refused” to wear a flag pin as a negative.
The race card is just gravy…
Affirmative Action – and Reaction; Is Diversity Overrated?
Many�??if not most�??people who are for or against affirmative action are for or against the theory of affirmative action. The factual question of what actually happens as a result of affirmative action policies receives remarkably little attention
http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/3010426.html
[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The man is a racist and has said much more than God Damn America.
Maybe so. I haven’t read the so-called racist comments he made, but those were known for a long time now. Everybody was aware of that. The recent campaign to smear Obama based on his pastor’s speech was sparked by the “God damn America” bit. You even presented the fact that he “refused” to wear a flag pin as a negative.
The race card is just gravy…[/quote]
Yes, there are many reasons to distrust and dislike Obama. Still looking for one reason to vote for him.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The man is a racist and has said much more than God Damn America.
Maybe so. I haven’t read the so-called racist comments he made, but those were known for a long time now. Everybody was aware of that. The recent campaign to smear Obama based on his pastor’s speech was sparked by the “God damn America” bit. You even presented the fact that he “refused” to wear a flag pin as a negative.
The race card is just gravy…
Yes, there are many reasons to distrust and dislike Obama. Still looking for one reason to vote for him.[/quote]
Have you ever voted for a Democrat in the presidentials?
[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The man is a racist and has said much more than God Damn America.
Maybe so. I haven’t read the so-called racist comments he made, but those were known for a long time now. Everybody was aware of that. The recent campaign to smear Obama based on his pastor’s speech was sparked by the “God damn America” bit. You even presented the fact that he “refused” to wear a flag pin as a negative.
The race card is just gravy…
Yes, there are many reasons to distrust and dislike Obama. Still looking for one reason to vote for him.
Have you ever voted for a Democrat in the presidentials?[/quote]
With choices like Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, Gore and Kerry I have not had the chance yet.
[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
The citing of all Wright has done for him is to establish the depth of the relationship - which makes it more unlikely that Obama didn’t know. I’m sure there is nothing in the records that Obama knows about that could disprove his very carefully worded statements.
A) I think he’s lying, or at least dissembling, on how much he knew of Wright’s statements and views. Assuming I’m correct, that means he either disagreed, but didn’t think they were that important, or he agreed.
B) In either case, Obama’s statements about Wright have been inconsistent, and only moved to disagreeing with him as the level of coverage grew. First he was defending, then explaining, and finally said he didn’t agree with all of his statements.
lixy wrote:
The Wiki presents some additional facts:
[i]Obama’s connection to Wright first drew attention in a February 2007 Rolling Stone article that described a speech in which Wright forcefully spoke about racism against blacks.[9] Citing the article, and fears that any further controversy would harm the church, Obama scrapped plans for having Wright introduce him at his presidential announcement speech in February 2007. Obama subsequently received criticism from some black supporters for disinviting Wright, with Al Sharpton stating that “the issue is standing by your own pastor”.[10]
Obama has often said that he and Wright sometimes disagree. [11]
In 1984, Wright travelled to Libya and Syria with Rev. Jesse Jackson and Farrakhan in a peace mission which resulted in the freeing of United States Navy pilot, Lt. Robert Goodman who was shot down over Lebanon. [17] Wright was quoted as saying that “When [Obama�??s] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli to visit Colonel Gadaffi with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell.”[18]
In 2007, Trumpet Magazine (which is published and edited by Wright’s daughters) presented the Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter Award to Farrakhan, whom managing editor Rhoda McKinney-Jones said “truly epitomized greatness.”[19] Wright is quoted in the magazine: “When Minister Farrakhan speaks, Black America listens. Everybody may not agree with him, but they listen…Minister Farrakhan will be remembered as one of the 20th and 21st century giants of the African American religious experience.”[20][21] Obama, on the other hand, has both denounced Farrakhan and rejected his endorsement.[22][/i]
So it seems all this mud slinging is based on the “God damn America” part recently released by ABC. Everything else’s been in the public domain for some time now.
Look at Zap’s posts to see how the soundbite is used to portray the man as an unpatriotic traitor. Shit, HH is questioning whether the man is an Al-Qaeda undercover agent.[/quote]
It may have been in the public domain, but it wasn’t getting any focus (I pay fairly close attention to these things, and I hadn’t heard of him or any of his speeches until very recently) - and the ABC soundbite captured people’s attention, so now the rest of his statements are coming into broad public focus through the “God damn America” lens.
However, from the above, I’m now even more disturbed that Wright was praising Farrakhan - even with the fact he carefully tossed in statements at the end that he wasn’t endorsing his views. If Jerry Falwell was praising David Duke but with the caveat that he wasn’t endorsing his views, I’d have even more problems with Falwell than I do already. When did Obama denounce Farrakhan, versus when Wright was praising him?
[quote]pookie wrote:
But the gist of this thread goes far beyond a robust relationship. It questions whether Obama is able to resist the influence of Wright’s nutty sermons and many have apparently concluded that he can’t.
[/quote]
I don’t think that’s it at all - I think the relationship brings his judgment into question, and the whole matter undercuts the image he was trying to sell: the post-racial, non-politician candidate of change. I may have missed it, but I don’t think anyone serious would question whether Obama bought into nutty conspiracy theories. At most, I think Wright’s statements give some context to Michell Obama’s statements about America in general, and her attitude - one I doubt Barack shares.
Without the “post-racial, non-politician” part of his candidacy, Barack Obama is just another charismatic guy with no resume - in other words, he’s John Edwards.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
… At most, I think Wright’s statements give some context to Michell Obama’s statements about America in general, and her attitude - one I doubt Barack shares.
…[/quote]
I suspect he shares his wife’s views, he is just smart enough to hide them when he speaks.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
… At most, I think Wright’s statements give some context to Michell Obama’s statements about America in general, and her attitude - one I doubt Barack shares.
…
I suspect he shares his wife’s views, he is just smart enough to hide them when he speaks.[/quote]
He hasn’t hidden them at all. They’re right there in his book, “Dream from my Father.”
[quote]lixy wrote:
Have you ever voted for a Democrat in the presidentials?[/quote]
Have you?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Yes, there are many reasons to distrust and dislike Obama. Still looking for one reason to vote for him.[/quote]
Change. Hope.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
… At most, I think Wright’s statements give some context to Michell Obama’s statements about America in general, and her attitude - one I doubt Barack shares.
…
I suspect he shares his wife’s views, he is just smart enough to hide them when he speaks.
He hasn’t hidden them at all. They’re right there in his book, “Dream from my Father.” [/quote]
That is pretty well hidden from me. I am not going to read that steaming pile of crap.
[quote]pat wrote:
lixy wrote:
Have you ever voted for a Democrat in the presidentials?
Have you?[/quote]
I don’t get to vote in the US. If I did, I sure wouldn’t vote for any of the two main parties.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
… At most, I think Wright’s statements give some context to Michell Obama’s statements about America in general, and her attitude - one I doubt Barack shares.
…
I suspect he shares his wife’s views, he is just smart enough to hide them when he speaks.
He hasn’t hidden them at all. They’re right there in his book, “Dream from my Father.”
That is pretty well hidden from me. I am not going to read that steaming pile of crap.[/quote]
Steve Sailer quotes it at length on his blog.
[quote]lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
lixy wrote:
Have you ever voted for a Democrat in the presidentials?
Have you?
I don’t get to vote in the US. If I did, I sure wouldn’t vote for any of the two main parties.[/quote]
If there was anyone else who wasn’t also questionable and had a chance of winning, I would vote outside the two party system as well. I think many Americans are sick of it. I know I am. I don’t call myself a Republican or a Democrat. I think it has gotten out of hand.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Doesn’t Oprah go to Obama’s church?
I wonder why she’s not taking any major flack…
She does. But she’s not running for anything.
Then let me ask, do you think Oprah’s judgment is now flawed because of going to a certain church?
I heard women shouldn’t be pastors in one church I went to. Obviously I don’t agree with this. That didn’t cause me to boycott the church. That would be because I went to church for deeper reasons than a particular pastor’s own personal philosophy.[/quote]
Professor X,
Is the level of antipathy (and I know I’m asking you to speak for the black community as a whole, and that’s not fair) for white people at such a level that leaders such a Obama can’t rise above those feelings?
Will black people always harbor some sort of ill will against whites? The reason I’m asking is that I’d expect a man such as Obama’s pastor at least, a man of God to be forgiving and a peace maker. Is what white people did to black people beyond forgiveness?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
lixy wrote:
Have you ever voted for a Democrat in the presidentials?
Have you?
I don’t get to vote in the US. If I did, I sure wouldn’t vote for any of the two main parties.
If there was anyone else who wasn’t also questionable and had a chance of winning, I would vote outside the two party system as well. I think many Americans are sick of it. I know I am. I don’t call myself a Republican or a Democrat. I think it has gotten out of hand.[/quote]
I am officially a Democrat!