Obama Not a Socialist

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]thefederalist wrote:
People actually misconceive of the incentive structures of socialism; they’re based on readjusting compensation to meet energy actually expended. So, if we’re being rigorous, the reality of socialism doesn’t jive with the narrative of the “welfare queen” so often used to describe it. disclaimer: I’m not a socialist, just contributing.

inb4 bleeding heart, wagon pullers, wagon riders, jam it down our throats, free market, ryan p. mccarter.[/quote]

Another gem. How you are able to distill the very essence of ignorance and stupidity into random word puking. It is either an art or a curse. [/quote]

What are you referring to? It is easy to say that my comment was stupid because it is easy to say anything. You thinking that my comment was the “very essence of ignorance” betrays your own ignorance of Marx. inb4 some thoughtless retort.

22

[quote]espenl wrote:
Whatever -ism Obama is, he is your president.[/quote]
A tragedy resulting from decades of creeping decline.

23

It’s not a word that we should be focusing on but rather Obama’s actions alone.

Every ism comes down to defining actions that corresponds to it.

After a rigorous analysis, with regard to policy, one either trusts in individuals or one does not. Obama and his ilk are collectivists. They inherently believe society needs to be directed to some “higher” end and that we unwashed masses cannot be trusted to act in our own best interests.

The inconsistency with collectivism is that we eventually have to trust in individuals to carry out policy anyway. Collectivism is blatant hypocrisy – it essentially says, “‘we’ do not trust ‘you’ so you better trust ‘us’.”

24

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
It’s not a word that we should be focusing on but rather Obama’s actions alone.

Every ism comes down to defining actions that corresponds to it.

After a rigorous analysis, with regard to policy, one either trusts in individuals or one does not. Obama and his ilk are collectivists. They inherently believe society needs to be directed to some “higher” end and that we unwashed masses cannot be trusted to act in our own best interests.

The inconsistency with collectivism is that we eventually have to trust in individuals to carry out policy anyway. Collectivism is blatant hypocrisy – it essentially says, “‘we’ do not trust ‘you’ so you better trust ‘us’.”[/quote]

Ahh, he’s not a real collectivist. :wink:

25

Please explain.

26

Ryan, go back to the hammer and sickle avatar. I could deal with that much more than this new one. I saw your avatar and other communitst leaders on peoples’ shirts yesterday picketing against the Tea Party Rally I went to.

If you have not gone to one I recommend all go just to check it out. Yesterday was my first one.

27

Ryan,

I am curious to know if you have ever visited Western Europe? Not read about, not spoken to someone who has been there or lived there (I would be one of those), but actually had your skinny jean wearin’ butt on the ground there? My suspicion is that your beliefs and views are formed from what you read or was taught, rather than see it with your own fat eyes.

28

Well actually, there is a vast political difference. I know you’re too smart to listen and you have your fingers in your ears, but maybe someone who is interested will see this.

29

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
It’s not a word that we should be focusing on but rather Obama’s actions alone.

Every ism comes down to defining actions that corresponds to it.

After a rigorous analysis, with regard to policy, one either trusts in individuals or one does not. Obama and his ilk are collectivists. They inherently believe society needs to be directed to some “higher” end and that we unwashed masses cannot be trusted to act in our own best interests.

The inconsistency with collectivism is that we eventually have to trust in individuals to carry out policy anyway. Collectivism is blatant hypocrisy – it essentially says, “‘we’ do not trust ‘you’ so you better trust ‘us’.”[/quote]

I’m not trying to start a fight, but this is genuine BS. After a “rigorous analysis,” we see that Obama is doing nothing more than attempting (fairly successfully) to maintain the capitalist system. I’m not sure if this is case of words standing in for thought or what, but I think his actions are far less ideological than you think (or at least, are not the result of the ideology you think they are). His actions, for the most part, have been pretty pragmatic. Yet they are firmly within the realm of capitalistic policies and solutions. You have an a very ideologically-informed definition of capitalism, so to you he’s not a capitalist because he is a Keynesian, but his actions nevertheless are firmly capitalist. A great deal of the stimulus was tax cuts, over the objections of more “liberal” economists, he did not nationalize the banks despite some calls for him to do just that, he dropped the idea of a public health insurance option fairly easily. All things considered, given the magnitude of this crisis, what is impressive is how little government intervention there has been, relative to what could have been and what was called for by many.

Think of him what you will, but nothing he has done has been “collectivist,” unless there’s some collectivist form of capitalism.

30

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ryan,

I am curious to know if you have ever visited Western Europe? Not read about, not spoken to someone who has been there or lived there (I would be one of those), but actually had your skinny jean wearin’ butt on the ground there? My suspicion is that your beliefs and views are formed from what you read or was taught, rather than see it with your own fat eyes. [/quote]

I’m not sure why I continue to respond to you, and there are several things about this post that annoy me, but I will answer the question.

I have visited Europe once, but I was pretty young. I won’t pretend I was old enough to care much about the economy. However, I am curious as to where you are going with this, since I thought I had made it clear that European socialism was not, and that the system I support bears little resemblance to it.

31

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Ryan, go back to the hammer and sickle avatar. I could deal with that much more than this new one. I saw your avatar and other communitst leaders on peoples’ shirts yesterday picketing against the Tea Party Rally I went to.[/quote]

First of all, quit trying to boss me around. Second, they couldn’t have been real Communists. Real Communists know picketing is useless, and anyway they wouldn’t picket the Tea Party. They might even vote for them. :slight_smile:

32

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ryan,

I am curious to know if you have ever visited Western Europe? Not read about, not spoken to someone who has been there or lived there (I would be one of those), but actually had your skinny jean wearin’ butt on the ground there? My suspicion is that your beliefs and views are formed from what you read or was taught, rather than see it with your own fat eyes. [/quote]

I’m not sure why I continue to respond to you, and there are several things about this post that annoy me, but I will answer the question.

I have visited Europe once, but I was pretty young. I won’t pretend I was old enough to care much about the economy. However, I am curious as to where you are going with this, since I thought I had made it clear that European socialism was not, and that the system I support bears little resemblance to it.[/quote]

You answered my question thank you.

33

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
I’m not trying to start a fight, but this is genuine BS. After a “rigorous analysis,” we see that Obama is doing nothing more than attempting (fairly successfully) to maintain the capitalist system.[/quote]

Really, stop it. You betray your ignorance with every post.

There can be no capitalism under any form of government.

34

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
I’m not trying to start a fight, but this is genuine BS. After a “rigorous analysis,” we see that Obama is doing nothing more than attempting (fairly successfully) to maintain the capitalist system.[/quote]

Really, stop it. You betray your ignorance with every post.

There can be no capitalism under any form of government.[/quote]

Rather, I betray your quite stunning level of devotion to ideology in defiance of reality.

But let me turn things around on you: according to this…interesting definition of capitalism, it can never exist. After all, governments were around before markets. Markets were established by government. So, you can be right, and be stuck promoting a system that has never existed and has no chance of coming to pass, or you can take a single step away from Rothbard and make a less ridiculous claim.

And they say socialists are utopians.

35

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
I’m not trying to start a fight, but this is genuine BS. After a “rigorous analysis,” we see that Obama is doing nothing more than attempting (fairly successfully) to maintain the capitalist system.[/quote]

Really, stop it. You betray your ignorance with every post.

There can be no capitalism under any form of government.[/quote]

Rather, I betray your quite stunning level of devotion to ideology in defiance of reality.

But let me turn things around on you: according to this…interesting definition of capitalism, it can never exist. After all, governments were around before markets. Markets were established by government. So, you can be right, and be stuck promoting a system that has never existed and has no chance of coming to pass, or you can take a single step away from Rothbard and make a less ridiculous claim.

And they say socialists are utopians.
[/quote]

No, markets exist in the actions of man, always and forever.

In a sense, ideas exist in the market as well. Any time a man acts he shows preference for a state of a affairs that he desires more than the state that would have resulted from non action.

The markets were not invented like government but rather are the result of concerted action toward desired ends. Governments, being the result of man’s ideas are also a part of market phenomenon.

That is why government can never work. It tries to direct that which was responsible in bringing it about in the first place.

In fact, here is an awesome and apropos quote made by Lew Rockwell on LRC today:

“Ideas know no borders. They are not inhibited by considerations of space. They can eat through the limits of time. They grow and spread by individual decisions and actions that no one can control. In the end, governments cannot manage ideas, and are even rendered powerless by them.”

36

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Ryan, go back to the hammer and sickle avatar. I could deal with that much more than this new one. I saw your avatar and other communitst leaders on peoples’ shirts yesterday picketing against the Tea Party Rally I went to.[/quote]

First of all, quit trying to boss me around. Second, they couldn’t have been real Communists. Real Communists know picketing is useless, and anyway they wouldn’t picket the Tea Party. They might even vote for them. :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Boo Hoo, quit acting like a College Student. If I was bossing you around you would know it. I just like the hammer and sickle much better. That is just my opinion.

37

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/history/trade/karlpolanyi.htm

Sorry, you’re wrong. How many more instances from history do you need to see to concede the fact that there is nothing “natural” or permanent about a market economy? Until you are willing to acknowledge basic, documented facts, you will not have any credibility. If the case for markets is so strong, then you shouldn’t have to keep trying to rewrite history.

As documented above, this is flat-out, objectively wrong. There was no such thing as a self-regulating market until the government established it by force.

Libertarians are notorious for mistaking causes for effects, and vice versa, but I didn’t know it was this bad.

[quote]In fact, here is an awesome and apropos quote made by Lew Rockwell on LRC today:

“Ideas know no borders. They are not inhibited by considerations of space. They can eat through the limits of time. They grow and spread by individual decisions and actions that no one can control. In the end, governments cannot manage ideas, and are even rendered powerless by them.”[/quote]

You seem to have a fondness for quotes which sound nice until you start to think about them, and then realize that they say nothing. That quote basically boils down to “ideas are important.” No one disagrees. It doesn’t support your argument.

If you’re going to lie, be more creative please.

38

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Ryan, go back to the hammer and sickle avatar. I could deal with that much more than this new one. I saw your avatar and other communitst leaders on peoples’ shirts yesterday picketing against the Tea Party Rally I went to.[/quote]

First of all, quit trying to boss me around. Second, they couldn’t have been real Communists. Real Communists know picketing is useless, and anyway they wouldn’t picket the Tea Party. They might even vote for them. :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Boo Hoo, quit acting like a College Student. If I was bossing you around you would know it. I just like the hammer and sickle much better. That is just my opinion.[/quote]

Sweet fancy Moses, I had hoped that the smiley (which I hate to use) would have given away my jocular tone, but apparently you’re just looking for an argument.

39

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Please explain.[/quote]

I just knew the winking smiley would not be enough, and I would actually have to write “[/sarcasm].”

I’m on your side on this one, lifty. I was parodying McSmarty.

40

ohmygodjinx.