'Obama is a Racist'-Glenn Beck

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]valiance. wrote:
<<< 1. this is unfounded, uncivil, and unnecessary

  1. but this part of your post has helped me realize that it’s very difficult for non-Whites (or women) to be conservatives precisely because the good old days just weren’t that good for us. We lack those rose-tinted glasses with which you view the past, its laws, and its institutions.[/quote]

Differences of opinion on somewhat debatable issues are neither what I was talking about nor central to Beck’s message. Neither are small details on larger issues.

As for number 2? I have stated my views on the racial history of this nation and how the abominable treatment of blacks is never part of what I mean about how it was founded in no uncertain terms numerous times. If I get particularly motivated later I’ll dig one up.

Suffice it so say for now that the DEFINING principles that set this nation in motion work for EVERYBODY, regardless of race. The great sin of the founders was denying those principles to some in direct hypocritical contradiction to their own words. The solution, as imperfect as it would necessarily be, is to apply their principles to “ALL MEN”, not adopt new principles as we have that have been utterly destructive to the nation as a whole and the very people they were alleged to help in particular.

People like me are your best friends pal. I respect your humanity, I have faith in your abilities, I view ALL people as equally dignified and qualitatively the same. I actually and truly give a shit that blacks are robbing, raping and killing EACH OTHER at a rate that would make 19th century plantation owners cringe. White guilt manifested in the form of artificially coerced federally instituted social justice has put whips and chains to the black citizens of this nation infinitely more destructive than slavery could ever have done.

Before you start, I call bullshit in advance on your “you can’t understand because you’ve never been there” cry. You keep right on believing that and you’ll be a willing tool of the left as long as you live. They prey on your poisonous racial identity to empower themselves buddy. Maybe it’s just because I’ve never been there that I can see this clearly and you can’t.

122

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
<<< 1. this is unfounded, uncivil, and unnecessary

  1. but this part of your post has helped me realize that it’s very difficult for non-Whites (or women) to be conservatives precisely because the good old days just weren’t that good for us. We lack those rose-tinted glasses with which you view the past, its laws, and its institutions.

Differences of opinion on somewhat debatable issues are neither what I was talking about nor central to Beck’s message. Neither are small details on larger issues.
[/quote]

So the falsehoods I pointed out don’t matter? I’d be happy to put that discussion aside in favor of the more interesting one below, but I have to be clear that you are rejecting my evidence out of hand because the untruths I pointed out aren’t big enough for you.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

As for number 2? I have stated my views on the racial history of this nation and how the abominable treatment of blacks is never part of what I mean about how it was founded in no uncertain terms numerous times. If I get particularly motivated later I’ll dig one up.

Suffice it so say for now that the DEFINING principles that set this nation in motion work for EVERYBODY, regardless of race. The great sin of the founders was denying those principles to some in direct hypocritical contradiction to their own words. The solution, as imperfect as it would necessarily be, is to apply their principles to “ALL MEN”, not adopt new principles as we have that have been utterly destructive to the nation as a whole and the very people they were alleged to help in particular.
[/quote]

We’re absolutely 100% in agreement up till here. The founders almost got it right; but the South was not having it. We literally could not have had a United States of America if the issue of equality was pushed.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
People like me are your best friends pal. I respect your humanity, I have faith in your abilities, I view ALL people as equally dignified and qualitatively the same. I actually and truly give a shit that blacks are robbing, raping and killing EACH OTHER at a rate that would make 19th century plantation owners cringe.
[/quote]

I find the condescension of “People like me are your best friends pal.” just a bit offputting. I think I know who my best friends are. The presumption that Black people are unable to determine who truly represents their interests is more than a bit insulting. It’s a kind of revisionist history and ignores the very real racism among some conservatives in America today.

and I hardly think a comparison to 19th century plantation owners is appropriate.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
White guilt manifested in the form of artificially coerced federally instituted social justice has put whips and chains to the black citizens of this nation infinitely more destructive than slavery could ever have done.
[/quote]

I disagree, but I’d be the first to admit that I don’t have all the answers for the social ills of the Black community and government intervention can’t be the solution to all our problems.

You and I have talked before about how society is arrayed against Black people and how the legacies of slavery and racism still cripple us to this day; I can easily dredge up those posts if you’d like the facts again. It was (and is) my contention that government intervention is needed to correct current and historical systematic biases against Black people.

I’d be happy to hear some support from your side about how the welfare state has instead crippled Black America. It’s an interesting thesis that I am sympathetic to but thus far it has only been asserted, and not supported.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Before you start, I call bullshit in advance on your “you can’t understand because you’ve never been there” cry. You keep right on believing that and you’ll be a willing tool of the left as long as you live. They prey on your poisonous racial identity to empower themselves buddy. Maybe it’s just because I’ve never been there that I can see this clearly and you can’t.[/quote]

Or maybe it’s simpler than that. Maybe you can’t understand because you’ve never been there. Society is quite literally structured around you, people like you, and your viewpoints. If you’re truly serious about helping Black people, listening to what we have to say would be a good start. Infantilizing grown adults and calling them tools of white liberals is not a good way to start an honest conversation with equals. If you truly believed in the equality of the races you couldn’t believe Black people were merely child-like dupes for the evil White liberals. Indeed, you would see that we have rational reasons for the things we do and believe, just as you do.

123

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:

I’m wondering what people think of this and if this trend in the separation of left and right ideals is becoming dangerously pronounced. If people actually support Beck on this one, this seems an ominous sign of the role of political ideas affecting our social structure. [/quote]

To address your original question, I think the polarization is more significant because the impact of government decisions on peoples lives is more significant today than 100 years ago.

The left wants to control you (your land use, freedom of speech, right to bear arms, use of your profits and income etc)

The right wants to control you (abortion, freedom of speech, strict marriage guidelines, drug use etc).

They both want to use the power of government to influence your behavior to achieve their ‘ideal societies’ (shades of communism vs shades of theocracy). In a truly free, laissez-faire society, this wouldn’t be as much of a problem. The government would be limited to its role as arbitrator of contracts and defender of individual liberty through the use of the courts, police and military. It would hold the monopoly on the initiation of force yet be able to do so only under strict guidelines that would preserve individual liberty. The result would be a much smaller military and police state than we have today and a court system that was governed only by respect for individual liberties. The federal branches of government would not wield the power over the citizenry they do today.

124

[quote]valiance. wrote:
Sorry Bill, I never mentioned Democrats or Republicans in my post so I’m not sure why you brought them up.[/quote]

Because you did write:

Inasmuch as politicians of the past that you are talking about are not neatly divisible into which were conservatives and which were not, and any such attempted division would be arguable and arbitrary, but they did divide themselves into Democrats and Republicans, and statements such as yours – unless you are apathetic and don’t vote – are commonly used to justify being unable to vote any way but Democrat. That’s why.

The only dishonesty here is your intellectual dishonesty.

(Hey, if you’re going to dish out dishonesty accusations, one would hope you can take them.)

Name ONE bill since then ever voted for or against by substantial numbers of Republicans or if you prefer conservatives that illustrates your claim of anti-civil-rights.

I do not refer to anti-special-added-rights, which is a different matter than treating all equally.

Is that your objection, they didn’t support some extra, added right specially for your group?

That’s why it’s so hard, according to you, for a black man or minority to vote for a conservative? Being exactly equal under the law and in how others such as employers, landlords, educational institutions and so forth may treat you just isn’t suitable?

Exactly what “past” of anti-civil-rights laws and institutions for which not Democrats but conservatives were supposedly responsible are you talking about? I gave facts about the past and was quite specific. If your position were based on fact, you could do the same.

125

[quote]valiance. wrote:
A long post[/quote]

I don’t have time for a proper response as I must get ready for back/bi’s and abs, but you have thrown down some stuff again I cannot allow to stand as is.

126

[quote]valiance. wrote:
<<< So the falsehoods I pointed out don’t matter? I’d be happy to put that discussion aside in favor of the more interesting one below, but I have to be clear that you are rejecting my evidence out of hand because the untruths I pointed out aren’t big enough for you. >>>[/quote]

Some are not necessarily false and some, even if false, do not constitute discounting the whole of somebody’s message. It would be the same with me for any liberal, I really do mean that.

[quote]valiance. wrote:
We’re absolutely 100% in agreement up till here. The founders almost got it right; but the South was not having it. We literally could not have had a United States of America if the issue of equality was pushed.[/quote]

But that’s the point and I sincerely commend you for this view. This is not what’s been done… not even close.

[quote]valiance. wrote:
I find the condescension of “People like me are your best friends pal.” just a bit offputting. I think I know who my best friends are. The presumption that Black people are unable to determine who truly represents their interests is more than a bit insulting. It’s a kind of revisionist history and ignores the very real racism among some conservatives in America today.[/quote]

I honestly don’t remember our previous exchanges though I do recall your name. I have said repeatedly and in impossible to misunderstand terms that the disastrous state of much of the “black community” (God I hate that @#%&%@ term) is NOT a symptom of blackness. It is a symptom of humanity, all humanity, once you undermine their character and spirit of self determination by doing for them instead of letting them do for themselves. I said in one post a while back that if somebody could push a magic button and make all the white people black in this country and vice versa, the “white community” would be in the exact same shape.

Black people have been manipulated and corralled into an endless cycle of soul crushing, dehumanizing dependence on white liberal oversight. Don’t you see? They have emphasized and used your black skin against you for their own political advancement. When I say “people like me” I mean anybody who believes you, or anybody else is as fully capable as I am. Many black people HAVE had their ability to recognize their own best interests destroyed by people who, at bottom, are paying them to keep them in office.

Liberal politicians need people to need them. It is their currency of the realm. The last thing they really want is a self sufficient populous and they have found in many blacks a ready made voter base as they continually point them to the past and continually pound them with the lie that only government can get them ahead. It is an internal slavery much more pernicious than historic slavery ever was.

[quote]valiance. wrote:
and I hardly think a comparison to 19th century plantation owners is appropriate.[/quote]

I do.

[quote]valiance. wrote:
I disagree, but I’d be the first to admit that I don’t have all the answers for the social ills of the Black community and government intervention can’t be the solution to all our problems.

You and I have talked before about how society is arrayed against Black people and how the legacies of slavery and racism still cripple us to this day; I can easily dredge up those posts if you’d like the facts again. It was (and is) my contention that government intervention is needed to correct current and historical systematic biases against Black people.

I’d be happy to hear some support from your side about how the welfare state has instead crippled Black America. It’s an interesting thesis that I am sympathetic to but thus far it has only been asserted, and not supported.[/quote]

You are a smart guy, but I am telling you in the sincerest way I can that overarching racial identity has blinded you to some utterly foundational truths. Racism and slavery DO still cripple you to this day, but they do so in the form of modern liberal policy. The very welfare state you mention above is a trap. The city of Detroit is a 157 square mile object lesson. Over 80% black and a barbaric warzone where the citizens routinely victimize EACH OTHER. The out of wedlock birthrate is off the charts, no family structure, feral children running wild on the streets. Why? Because the government has replaced responsible parenthood. The whole damn city is on welfare. There is no reason to form a faithful principled responsible family. Every frickin thing is paid for and taken care of through some enslaving poisonous social program.

Let me be clear. White, or any other race of people are equally susceptible to this tyrannical slight of hand and where government dependence is prominent among them the same problems exist. It’s only not as obvious among whites because a much smaller % of them is dependent. That is true because blacks are incessantly barraged with the “come and get it” message trumpeted by politicians who cloak their disdainful need for votes in feigned compassion. They are the ones who are condescending, not me my friend.

[quote]valiance. wrote:
Or maybe it’s simpler than that. Maybe you can’t understand because you’ve never been there. Society is quite literally structured around you, people like you, and your viewpoints.[/quote]

People like who!?!?!?! What viewpoints!?!?!?! You mean white viewpoints? There are no white viewpoints. That’s where this country is eating itself alive. People are people. What have I said that is not absolutely applicable to any person regardless of what damn color they are?

[quote]valiance. wrote:
If you’re truly serious about helping Black people,[/quote]

I cannot help black people!!! Other black people cannot help black. Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and the Supreme Court cannot help black people. All I can do is offer my hand in friendship and support your constitutional rights as being the same as mine. This country was founded on the assumption that one man and one woman for life would constitute a family with THEIR children while either was still alive and the moral responsibility for those people would be those people and their extended family. Charity could be administered voluntarily where there was a genuine need to be determined by the charitable themselves. Every last single issue this nation faces is a direct result more or less of the loss of that principle.

So called black issues are what they are exactly because black families are damn near extinct and modern largely white nanny state and social liberalism is the primary author and perpetuator of that state of affairs. Nobody and I mean nobody is talking me out that.

[quote]valiance. wrote:
listening to what we have to say would be a good start. Infantilizing grown adults and calling them tools of white liberals is not a good way to start an honest conversation with equals. If you truly believed in the equality of the races you couldn’t believe Black people were merely child-like dupes for the evil White liberals. Indeed, you would see that we have rational reasons for the things we do and believe, just as you do. [/quote]

I’ve explained this above. Being black is incidental. All people will fall into this trap when they’re not only presented with it, but actively recruited. It’s universal human nature. Liberalism is a destructive, sinister and flatly evil set of principles whether practiced by Democrats, Republicans or anybody else. It’s not a friendly disagreement to me. It’s life or death for this nation.

128

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
<<< So the falsehoods I pointed out don’t matter? I’d be happy to put that discussion aside in favor of the more interesting one below, but I have to be clear that you are rejecting my evidence out of hand because the untruths I pointed out aren’t big enough for you. >>>

Some are not necessarily false and some, even if false, do not constitute discounting the whole of somebody’s message. It would be the same with me for any liberal, I really do mean that.

valiance. wrote:
We’re absolutely 100% in agreement up till here. The founders almost got it right; but the South was not having it. We literally could not have had a United States of America if the issue of equality was pushed.

But that’s the point and I sincerely commend you for this view. This is not what’s been done… not even close.

valiance. wrote:
I find the condescension of “People like me are your best friends pal.” just a bit offputting. I think I know who my best friends are. The presumption that Black people are unable to determine who truly represents their interests is more than a bit insulting. It’s a kind of revisionist history and ignores the very real racism among some conservatives in America today.

I honestly don’t remember our previous exchanges though I do recall your name. I have said repeatedly and in impossible to misunderstand terms that the disastrous state of much of the “black community” (God I hate that @#%&%@ term) is NOT a symptom of blackness. It is a symptom of humanity, all humanity, once you undermine their character and spirit of self determination by doing for them instead of letting them do for themselves. I said in one post a while back that if somebody could push a magic button and make all the white people black in this country and vice versa, the “white community” would be in the exact same shape.

Black people have been manipulated and corralled into an endless cycle of soul crushing, dehumanizing dependence on white liberal oversight. Don’t you see? They have emphasized and used your black skin against you for their own political advancement. When I say “people like me” I mean anybody who believes you, or anybody else is as fully capable as I am. Many black people HAVE had their ability to recognize their own best interests destroyed by people who, at bottom, are paying them to keep them in office.

Liberal politicians need people to need them. It is their currency of the realm. The last thing they really want is a self sufficient populous and they have found in many blacks a ready made voter base as they continually point them to the past and continually pound them with the lie that only government can get them ahead. It is an internal slavery much more pernicious than historic slavery ever was.

valiance. wrote:
and I hardly think a comparison to 19th century plantation owners is appropriate.

I do.

valiance. wrote:
I disagree, but I’d be the first to admit that I don’t have all the answers for the social ills of the Black community and government intervention can’t be the solution to all our problems.

You and I have talked before about how society is arrayed against Black people and how the legacies of slavery and racism still cripple us to this day; I can easily dredge up those posts if you’d like the facts again. It was (and is) my contention that government intervention is needed to correct current and historical systematic biases against Black people.

I’d be happy to hear some support from your side about how the welfare state has instead crippled Black America. It’s an interesting thesis that I am sympathetic to but thus far it has only been asserted, and not supported.

You are a smart guy, but I am telling you in the sincerest way I can that overarching racial identity has blinded you to some utterly foundational truths. Racism and slavery DO still cripple you to this day, but they do so in the form of modern liberal policy. The very welfare state you mention above is a trap. The city of Detroit is a 157 square mile object lesson. Over 80% black and a barbaric warzone where the citizens routinely victimize EACH OTHER. The out of wedlock birthrate is off the charts, no family structure, feral children running wild on the streets. Why? Because the government has replaced responsible parenthood. The whole damn city is on welfare. There is no reason to form a faithful principled responsible family. Every frickin thing is paid for and taken care of through some enslaving poisonous social program.

Let me be clear. White, or any other race of people are equally susceptible to this tyrannical slight of hand and where government dependence is prominent among them the same problems exist. It’s only not as obvious among whites because a much smaller % of them is dependent. That is true because blacks are incessantly barraged with the “come and get it” message trumpeted by politicians who cloak their disdainful need for votes in feigned compassion. They are the ones who are condescending, not me my friend.

valiance. wrote:
Or maybe it’s simpler than that. Maybe you can’t understand because you’ve never been there. Society is quite literally structured around you, people like you, and your viewpoints.

People like who!?!?!?! What viewpoints!?!?!?! You mean white viewpoints? There are no white viewpoints. That’s where this country is eating itself alive. People are people. What have I said that is not absolutely applicable to any person regardless of what damn color they are?

valiance. wrote:
If you’re truly serious about helping Black people,

I cannot help black people!!! Other black people cannot help black. Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and the Supreme Court cannot help black people. All I can do is offer my hand in friendship and support your constitutional rights as being the same as mine. This country was founded on the assumption that one man and one woman for life would constitute a family with THEIR children while either was still alive and the moral responsibility for those people would be those people and their extended family. Charity could be administered voluntarily where there was a genuine need to be determined by the charitable themselves. Every last single issue this nation faces is a direct result more or less of the loss of that principle.

So called black issues are what they are exactly because black families are damn near extinct and modern largely white nanny state and social liberalism is the primary author and perpetuator of that state of affairs. Nobody and I mean nobody is talking me out that.

valiance. wrote:
listening to what we have to say would be a good start. Infantilizing grown adults and calling them tools of white liberals is not a good way to start an honest conversation with equals. If you truly believed in the equality of the races you couldn’t believe Black people were merely child-like dupes for the evil White liberals. Indeed, you would see that we have rational reasons for the things we do and believe, just as you do.

I’ve explained this above. Being black is incidental. All people will fall into this trap when they’re not only presented with it, but actively recruited. It’s universal human nature. Liberalism is a destructive, sinister and flatly evil set of principles whether practiced by Democrats, Republicans or anybody else. It’s not a friendly disagreement to me. It’s life or death for this nation.

Tirib, you made a great post. My hat’s off to you.

[/quote]

Agreed, I’m a poor typists, so I don’t have the patience to put so much out there.

129

Yep, great post and all 100% true. Every program instituted under the guise of help is actually there to help keep status quoe.

130

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
<<< So the falsehoods I pointed out don’t matter? I’d be happy to put that discussion aside in favor of the more interesting one below, but I have to be clear that you are rejecting my evidence out of hand because the untruths I pointed out aren’t big enough for you. >>>

Some are not necessarily false and some, even if false, do not constitute discounting the whole of somebody’s message. It would be the same with me for any liberal, I really do mean that.

[/quote]

Your standards of proof seem a bit lax. Some of those errors are pretty glaring. But I couldn’t care less about Glenn Beck anyway. Your open-mindedness is duly noted.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

valiance. wrote:
We’re absolutely 100% in agreement up till here. The founders almost got it right; but the South was not having it. We literally could not have had a United States of America if the issue of equality was pushed.

But that’s the point and I sincerely commend you for this view. This is not what’s been done… not even close.

valiance. wrote:
I find the condescension of “People like me are your best friends pal.” just a bit offputting. I think I know who my best friends are. The presumption that Black people are unable to determine who truly represents their interests is more than a bit insulting. It’s a kind of revisionist history and ignores the very real racism among some conservatives in America today.

I honestly don’t remember our previous exchanges though I do recall your name.
[/quote]

You can search my former posts if you’re interested in reviewing the old debates but that’s hardly germane.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

I have said repeatedly and in impossible to misunderstand terms that the disastrous state of much of the “black community” (God I hate that @#%&%@ term) is NOT a symptom of blackness.
[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

It is a symptom of humanity, all humanity, once you undermine their character and spirit of self determination by doing for them instead of letting them do for themselves.
[/quote]

All humanity? So we see the same problems with the welfare state in say… Denmark? Or Sweden? Or Norway? Or The UK?

If not, then why not? Is the U.S. welfare state uniquely corrosive? If so, it’s certainly not due to its size. The welfare state is a far larger beast in the Nordic countries and through much of Europe. What makes the U.S. system so good at producing poor outcomes?

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I said in one post a while back that if somebody could push a magic button and make all the white people black in this country and vice versa, the “white community” would be in the exact same shape.
[/quote]

I agree; though I think its impossible to discount the impact of slavery and Jim Crow. We’re not just talking about the welfare state but the whole black experience being reversed or switched.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Black people have been manipulated and corralled into an endless cycle of soul crushing, dehumanizing dependence on white liberal oversight. Don’t you see? They have emphasized and used your black skin against you for their own political advancement.
[/quote]

Well firstly, I’m skeptical of the “being led around by the nose” theory of black and white-liberal interactions.

Secondly, even if your overall thesis is correct you certainly impute a lot of malice to the liberals in power, rather than assuming they are misguided do-gooders, as I think might more often be the case.

“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.” - Robert J. Hanlon

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
When I say “people like me” I mean anybody who believes you, or anybody else is as fully capable as I am. Many black people HAVE had their ability to recognize their own best interests destroyed by people who, at bottom, are paying them to keep them in office.

Liberal politicians need people to need them. It is their currency of the realm. The last thing they really want is a self sufficient populous and they have found in many blacks a ready made voter base as they continually point them to the past and continually pound them with the lie that only government can get them ahead. It is an internal slavery much more pernicious than historic slavery ever was.
[/quote]

You keep saying this but I’m yet to see the proof.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

valiance. wrote:
and I hardly think a comparison to 19th century plantation owners is appropriate.

I do.
[/quote]

Well I hardly think black people killing one another would be a cause for alarm amongst 19th century plantation owners. Even if they were appalled by livestock killing other livestock, their concern certainly wouldn’t be there for the same reasons you and I are concerned. You’re being hyperbolic and borderline offensive. The violence is terrible I get it. I simply think your analogy is inappropriate and historically unsupportable.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
I disagree, but I’d be the first to admit that I don’t have all the answers for the social ills of the Black community and government intervention can’t be the solution to all our problems.

You and I have talked before about how society is arrayed against Black people and how the legacies of slavery and racism still cripple us to this day; I can easily dredge up those posts if you’d like the facts again. It was (and is) my contention that government intervention is needed to correct current and historical systematic biases against Black people.

I’d be happy to hear some support from your side about how the welfare state has instead crippled Black America. It’s an interesting thesis that I am sympathetic to but thus far it has only been asserted, and not supported.

You are a smart guy, but I am telling you in the sincerest way I can that overarching racial identity has blinded you to some utterly foundational truths. Racism and slavery DO still cripple you to this day, but they do so in the form of modern liberal policy. The very welfare state you mention above is a trap. The city of Detroit is a 157 square mile object lesson. Over 80% black and a barbaric warzone where the citizens routinely victimize EACH OTHER. The out of wedlock birthrate is off the charts, no family structure, feral children running wild on the streets. Why? Because the government has replaced responsible parenthood. The whole damn city is on welfare. There is no reason to form a faithful principled responsible family. Every frickin thing is paid for and taken care of through some enslaving poisonous social program.

Let me be clear. White, or any other race of people are equally susceptible to this tyrannical slight of hand and where government dependence is prominent among them the same problems exist. It’s only not as obvious among whites because a much smaller % of them is dependent. That is true because blacks are incessantly barraged with the “come and get it” message trumpeted by politicians who cloak their disdainful need for votes in feigned compassion. They are the ones who are condescending, not me my friend.
[/quote]

I’m convinced I understand your thesis and I know you believe it vehemently; but I’m still yet to see the proof or some explanation of why. Compare our welfare state to that of the Nordics and see if your thesis holds up.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

valiance. wrote:
Or maybe it’s simpler than that. Maybe you can’t understand because you’ve never been there. Society is quite literally structured around you, people like you, and your viewpoints.

People like who!?!?!?! What viewpoints!?!?!?! You mean white viewpoints? There are no white viewpoints. That’s where this country is eating itself alive. People are people. What have I said that is not absolutely applicable to any person regardless of what damn color they are?
[/quote]

People like who!?!?!?! People like white straight males who have a near-monopoly on power and influence in this country?
~96/100 senators, 7/9 Supreme Court Justices (soon to be 6/9)etc etc. ad infinitum

The fact that white men dominate the cultural landscape means your viewpoint is proportionately overrepresented and you rarely hear the viewpoints of black people, or women, or gays. There are a number of loud agitators for each group to be sure, but the dominant cultural paradigm is set by the white man. You are the default and everyone else is a deviation.

What you’ve said is absolutely applicable to people regardless of their color. I’m not trying to paint you as a racist or racially motivated person in any way.

You preempted me with an argument I wasn’t even going to use; but I felt obliged to defend it because I believe the experiences of white people and black people are different enough in this country such that we often have different viewpoints when taken in aggregate, especially when it comes to race and poverty.

The same could be said for women and men, asians and latinos or any other other culturally or biologically (in the case of sex) distinct group. Culture matters and background matters. Hell, Supreme Court Justices take their own backgrounds into account when making decisions (whether they should or not is another matter entirely), so we can’t say these differences don’t exist or don’t matter.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
If you’re truly serious about helping Black people,

I cannot help black people!!! Other black people cannot help black. Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and the Supreme Court cannot help black people. All I can do is offer my hand in friendship and support your constitutional rights as being the same as mine. This country was founded on the assumption that one man and one woman for life would constitute a family with THEIR children while either was still alive and the moral responsibility for those people would be those people and their extended family. Charity could be administered voluntarily where there was a genuine need to be determined by the charitable themselves. Every last single issue this nation faces is a direct result more or less of the loss of that principle.

So called black issues are what they are exactly because black families are damn near extinct and modern largely white nanny state and social liberalism is the primary author and perpetuator of that state of affairs. Nobody and I mean nobody is talking me out that.

valiance. wrote:
listening to what we have to say would be a good start. Infantilizing grown adults and calling them tools of white liberals is not a good way to start an honest conversation with equals. If you truly believed in the equality of the races you couldn’t believe Black people were merely child-like dupes for the evil White liberals. Indeed, you would see that we have rational reasons for the things we do and believe, just as you do.

I’ve explained this above. Being black is incidental. All people will fall into this trap when they’re not only presented with it, but actively recruited. It’s universal human nature. Liberalism is a destructive, sinister and flatly evil set of principles whether practiced by Democrats, Republicans or anybody else. It’s not a friendly disagreement to me. It’s life or death for this nation.

[/quote]

I was taking issue with your word choice and your tone. Anytime someone tries to convince of his position by simply saying I’ve been duped by X, Y, or Z, I reach for my wallet. Black people are not children being mislead by white liberals with ill intent. That narrative just doesn’t work for me. It’s like when liberals insist that poor conservatives are stupid for voting Republican–it’s condescending and quite frankly incorrect. People have logical reasons for what they do. I see that’s not what you were trying to do at all, but your word choice was saying something different than the argument you meant to advance.

Takeaway: I’m understand the thesis you’re advancing, and it even seems plausible and convincing; but I’m not seeing any numbers, any facts, any information about what has led you to this conclusion over–presumably–long years of thinking about these issues. You may say it’s self evident, in which case I would counter that it’s not self evident to me. If you say you don’t want to turn this into a tutoring session that’s fine, but be aware you have presented me with a thesis with no proof behind it. That does little to change hearts or minds–or even provoke thought–if such is your intent.

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We were warned about this by various wise individuals right from day one and it seems that social entropy is having it’s way in spite of that.

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[quote]Gregus wrote:
Yep, great post and all 100% true. Every program instituted under the guise of help is actually there to help keep status quoe. [/quote]

And voters who need the gubmint’. It’s hard to be a conservative, go do it yourself and I’ll leave you alone.

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He was part of an all black church that was very racist against white people, then he disassociated himself from the church from the controversy to protect his campaign. He is all for affirmative action, something we all know is playing the race card for deciding who gets into college or gets hired for a job.

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@ Valiance,

I’m not ignoring you. I have been extremely busy.

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[quote]gainera2582 wrote:
He was part of an all black church that was very racist against white people, then he disassociated himself from the church from the controversy to protect his campaign. He is all for affirmative action, something we all know is playing the race card for deciding who gets into college or gets hired for a job. [/quote]

I’d be against affirmative action if removing it meant that the playing field would be equal. Unfortunately, that is not what would happen. Instead, societal advantages would shift towards white men, thereby denying black people, other minorities, and women a fair chance at getting into college or getting a job. Affirmative action is a very visible form of discrimination in favor of minorities and women, but it is countered every day by much more subtle, oftentimes invisible forms of discrimination in favor of white (straight) men. For example: It’s easier for a white convict to get a job than for a black man without a criminal record to get a job. http://paa2005.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=50874 I could go on and on at length about how society discriminates against Black people (and other minorities, and women and gays) but I’ll leave it with that single datum for now.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
@ Valiance,

I’m not ignoring you. I have been extremely busy.[/quote]

Duly noted.

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[quote]valiance. wrote:
<<<< Tiribulus wrote:
@ Valiance,

I’m not ignoring you. I have been extremely busy.

Duly noted.
[/quote]

I have been buried in work which is something I must take advantage of.

For now, the examples you give range from disasters themselves to second rate pacifistic, irrelevant outposts of nothing in particular of note.

Different societies with different histories will manifest the inevitable symptoms of communism in different, yet universally bad ways.

I like being a superpower. In fact I like being THE superpower because see, I don’t suffer from the delusion that if we just relinquish the position that we have earned by the very system of government Barack Obama despises, the world will be a more just and beautiful place. Somebody will always lead.

Governmentally coerced charity will forever keep the nations that practice it from being what they could. England is a catastrophe as is Germany. Sweden is a little smear on the map that with good watches and hockey players. They have made their choice. Assuming that human history is the great teacher and somebody will always lead, as I say, I want it to be us. Us meaning Americans regardless of color or ethnicity.

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[quote]valiance. wrote:
gainera2582 wrote:
He was part of an all black church that was very racist against white people, then he disassociated himself from the church from the controversy to protect his campaign. He is all for affirmative action, something we all know is playing the race card for deciding who gets into college or gets hired for a job.

I’d be against affirmative action if removing it meant that the playing field would be equal. Unfortunately, that is not what would happen. Instead, societal advantages would shift towards white men, thereby denying black people, other minorities, and women a fair chance at getting into college or getting a job. Affirmative action is a very visible form of discrimination in favor of minorities and women, but it is countered every day by much more subtle, oftentimes invisible forms of discrimination in favor of white (straight) men. For example: It’s easier for a white convict to get a job than for a black man without a criminal record to get a job. http://paa2005.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=50874 I could go on and on at length about how society discriminates against Black people (and other minorities, and women and gays) but I’ll leave it with that single datum for now.

Tiribulus wrote:
@ Valiance,

I’m not ignoring you. I have been extremely busy.

Duly noted.
[/quote]

I am a white male, who came from another country legally with dual citizenship, who did not speak a word of English, and played the hand of cards I was dealt with. I was enrolled in public school, and had to learn English at a time when ESL classes didn’t exist. I got no help, for which my grades suffered.

During my elementary years, I did poorly in school, simply because I could not understand the language for shit. It’s awful hard to take a test when you have no idea what the material means to you. By the time I graduated high school, I graduated with honors, achieving the highest score on the AP calculus test in the entire school district, along with being a 3 year scholar-athlete winner, and a 2 time winner of the Who’s Who Among High School Students Award. I was hoping to be awarded a football scholarship to an Ivy League school in the hopes of getting an excellent education, but apparently any SAT score under 1500 is not looked at seriously, even as an athlete.

I had no extra set of skills, no higher understanding of anything, other than me breaking my back with a hunger like a ravenous lion to succeed. I chose not to enter into a lifestyle which would deter me from my goals, I also chose not to hang out with people that could jeopardize my future.

I agree with some of what you mention in your statement, but there is also a point where you give a middle finger to the rest of the world and grab your nuts in your hand and say…“I will not be denied.” There are plenty of stories where those with situations worse than others, did better in life than those more privileged. When and where does this difference come into play? With the individual. When you refuse to let anyone tell you your business. Dude if you want it, go get it. This country, more than any other country in the world, allows a man or a woman to have a major say in the future of his/her fate.

We all have 2 arms, 2 legs, a brain, and a heart beat. Is one man a better man than you? That’s for you to decide. After all, he is just a man, just like you.

138

Man I wish I had more time.

Here is a post of mine from about a year ago during the campaign which also touches on this topic. One of the most significant conversations of my life. This man (one of those horrid Christians BTW) changed my life in a very real way.

I wrote last year:

"I don’t think I ever told this story here so I will now. One of the singularly most memorable conversations of my life.

I spent 7 long miserable years living in New York, Long Island, and for 3 of them in the early nineties I drove deliveries for a non prescription pharmaceutical supplier in NYC, Westchester county and eastern Jersey.

One of my deliveries was a pharmacy on 125th street, ironically also called Martin Luther King Jr. blvd, right across the street form the Apollo Theater. This is Harlem and nary a white face in sight. My first time there I was delivering saline irrigation solutions which are very heavy boxes of bottles of liquid.

This place has one of those doors that no matter how hard you try to throw it open with your foot it closes too fast to get yourself in with a handtruck. The black owner, in about his fifties or so, saw me killing myself trying to get that first load through the door and came out to help. He walked out on the street and said to my utter shock, in a loud voice clearly designed to be heard by the crowds all over the sidewalk: I’ll get that for ya son, these niggers ain’t gonna help you

I kinda sheepishly thanked him and when we got inside he could see the discomfort and puzzlement on my face at what he’d said. He said, don’t mind me, I just really can’t stand what’s become of this place and a conversation ensued.

I wound up in his office with him showing me a picture album of when he was a kid growing up there in the forties and fifties. Children in uniforms lined up at school, family gatherings, church, funerals etc. He was visibly upset. He told me how he remembered when you got smacked in the mouth by your own father if you lipped off to your elders and now kids roam the drug filled streets with guns, parentless and futureless.

It was from him I first heard the statistic that 78% of violent crime in NYC was black on black. He sneered, all I ever hear is how white people are the problem and we’re raping and murdering each other. He did all the talking. He said he believed it was the disintegration of the family in the wake of government programs that absolve men of their fatherly responsibilities that largely facilitated this.

He even said he would gladly go back to the days of real institutionalized racism if this were the alternative. I spent about a half hour with him that day, blew my whole delivery schedule and was late for my workout later. I was riveted and a whole bunch of controversial topics lost their controversy for me that day. I’ve never viewed black white relations in this country the same since. We became friendly and he was the only one of any of my stops, black or not, that gave me a Christmas card and a tip along with a hug.

Barack Obama, far FAR from standing for “change we can believe in” represents more and more and more and MORE of the SAME damn big government bullshit that got us here in the first place. Racism is an abomination. It needed and needs to be expunged from our national fabric, but we have done all the wrong things to accomplish that and an Obama presidency will be a disastrous latest chapter in that already tragic book."

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[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:

You can’t be a respected journalist and make these kinds of statements.

No disagreement - but he is not, nor is he pretending to be, a respected journalist////

This link sums it all up: esp the first page or so. The Worst President Ever. A Post-Obama America, Year 2016. :: Reader comments at Daniel Pipes
Obama never was , is or will be the man for the Job. and he and the people around him are in the process of destroying this country…for what its worth… Glenn Beck has got nothing to do with this post, but just reading more through the posts I wanted to contribute

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I don’t believe this guy has a very high opinion of BO.