NYPD's Finest?

[quote]Digital Chainsaw wrote:
NDM wrote:
Digital Chainsaw wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Digital Chainsaw wrote:
Nobody wants to address my posts…

I wonder why?

Because they can’t immediately label you as a “cop hater” allowing them to ignore what you have to say, along with the fact that I doubt very many actually listened to the video WELL previously and simply assumed that we should give the cops the benefit of the doubt and not ask too many questions…in spite of this not making very much sense outside of the scenario that they scared the crap out of these guys which led to everything else.

Guys who scream, “yo, go get my gun” aren’t usually the bravest. They talk more because they act less.

Sorry Prof, you did respond previously. Sorry for the oversight.

What I meant to say was:

Nobody who has been blowing their horn all day about how justified the cops were wants to address my posts.

What about do your post do you want people to address? I’ve just about had it with this thread. A group of guys talked big about guns, and it got them killed. The police had reasonable grounds to believe there were weapons either on the suspects or in their vehicle. Then tried to run down the one cop, and he shot at them. The officers were in fear for their lives, so they responded accordingly. I would like to see what any of you would do in this situation.

“Oh look, I’m getting run over. I just might die here. Let’s see, they could think I’m trying to car jack them, or they are indeed trying to kill me. Maybe I should politely ask the young man behind the wheel who is trying to kill me just why he is running me over. I mean I will probably be dead by then, but I must ask every possible question before I pull the trigger.”

Get real.

“What about do your post…”?

My points are clearly laid out above, and again, you continue to ignore them and rave about half-truths and generalities and not the facts.[/quote]

And what are the facts? That a group of guys claimed to have weapons, ran a cop over, and got shot for it? Yea, those are the facts. And so far, I can’t see that the cops didn’t anything wrong. This is getting stupid. I’m probably not going to respond to this thread again because I’m just repeating myself and there is too much speculation here. I have better things to do with my time than argue over this shit. I’m not gaining anything from it. Certain people on this site offer nothing but criticism and snide remarks.

There was a comment made that I implied that anyone that questioned the actions of cops was a cop hater. Not true. I said the OP was a cop hater based on many comments he has made about cops. I think the public has a right to question the police when something doesn’t seem right, and I think that the police are obligated to give them the truth. When a suspect is accused, you have to prove that they were guilty. When the police are accused, they have to prove that they are innocent. They are not the same thing.

Anyway, I don’t think either “side” took home anything useful from this debate, and I’m going to refrain from jumping into them again. Like I said, I don’t care if I win an internet argument. The only reason I responded is because I got sick of one person in particular runnin’ his mouth and posting links left and right about cops. Now I can see why this site has degraded over the years. It’s not Biotest, or the fine writers here, it’s weak ass poster’s who spend way too much time talking about world issues on a bodybuilding/athletic performance site . I don’t get it. New poster’s also get flamed for not having over 5000 posts. Give me a break. Who the hell has that much time? Someone with nothing better to do.

[quote]Digital Chainsaw wrote:
NDM wrote:
Digital Chainsaw wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Digital Chainsaw wrote:
Nobody wants to address my posts…

I wonder why?

Because they can’t immediately label you as a “cop hater” allowing them to ignore what you have to say, along with the fact that I doubt very many actually listened to the video WELL previously and simply assumed that we should give the cops the benefit of the doubt and not ask too many questions…in spite of this not making very much sense outside of the scenario that they scared the crap out of these guys which led to everything else.

Guys who scream, “yo, go get my gun” aren’t usually the bravest. They talk more because they act less.

Sorry Prof, you did respond previously. Sorry for the oversight.

What I meant to say was:

Nobody who has been blowing their horn all day about how justified the cops were wants to address my posts.

What about do your post do you want people to address? I’ve just about had it with this thread. A group of guys talked big about guns, and it got them killed. The police had reasonable grounds to believe there were weapons either on the suspects or in their vehicle. Then tried to run down the one cop, and he shot at them. The officers were in fear for their lives, so they responded accordingly. I would like to see what any of you would do in this situation.

“Oh look, I’m getting run over. I just might die here. Let’s see, they could think I’m trying to car jack them, or they are indeed trying to kill me. Maybe I should politely ask the young man behind the wheel who is trying to kill me just why he is running me over. I mean I will probably be dead by then, but I must ask every possible question before I pull the trigger.”

Get real.

“What about do your post…”?

My points are clearly laid out above, and again, you continue to ignore them and rave about half-truths and generalities and not the facts.[/quote]

You don’t have the facts either so stop pretending that you do. Maybe you don’t realize it, but all you did was fill in a couple of holes in the story with your own guesses. We’ll see what comes out later and I’m going to leave it at that. I can’t reconstruct this scene based on the little bit that has been leaked, and that is if you can trust what the press is printing.

[quote]NDM wrote:
tom63 wrote:
PGA wrote:
tom63 wrote:
I’ve been trained at a high level with defensive pistol use, and the 50 rounds isn’t that disturbing. If they had a right to shoot, the number of rounds is irrelevant.

If they had no right to shoot, one round is excessive. It’s not the number, but whether they should have fired in the first place.

With a few officers, 50 rounds could be fired in 5 seconds, not 10.

But that’s not the point, even though people always focus on it. The point is I don’t think they should have even fired.

What makes a shooting legitimate or not, is often hard to understand for an untrained individual. For instance, and average person can cover 21 + ft. plus in under two seconds. this puts a police officer at risk if a person doesn’t comply with commands.

A person with a concealed knife could be a lethal threat and appear unarmed. Testing has shown even older, arthritic people could cover 7 yards in less than two seconds.

As for a car, there are multiple factors, but in this case it looks like the cops screwed up big time with the information listed.

No doubt 50 shots with 5 officers isnt that much. But ONE officer shot 31 times. Thats three times as many as any other officer at the scene.

Very true, it’s sad but many police officers aren’t really good or disciplined shots.

As for the time frame, I’ve cleared 5 bowling pins off a table 7 yards away in just under two seconds with a pump shotgun. It is possible to shoot many times ( officers are trained to shoot until the assailant stops) , but 31 times is still much.

Which again shows you, not all cops are very good with guns. Jeff Cooper, the founder of modern pistol defense shooting once observed and stated that officers should be armed accordingly to how well they qualify. Top notch shots get a single action auto. Second tier get revolvers, while the bottom tier get baseball bats.

It’s not cops that are bad shots. It’s the situation that they are in that leads to inaccurate shooting. I’d like to see you place a mag’s worth of rounds dead center on a target when your life is on the line. [/quote]

It is difficult, but the fact remains that in gunfights police don’t shoot any better than civilians on average. 1/5 shots from a pistol hits. This is remedied by training. Not just shooting at paper targets, but shooting under stress. It’s unfortunate that the average department doesn’t have the budget to afford proper training.

Qualifying under normal constraints is easy and barely serviceable. My instructor made us qualify in triple time, meaning 1/3 the time required. We also had to shoot weak handed, perform one handed reloads under stress and so on.

This doesn’t guarantee success, but will go farther in insuring it when the bad thing happens. Your average police officer shoots for qualifying only. That’s not enough.

Seal teams and Delta force will shoot app. 2000 pistol rounds a week.

I’m not saying this to put down police officers, I just want to point out that most aren’t “gun” guys. There are excellent shots out there, but not every cop is one of them.

The fellow who trained me won the end of class shootout in LFI1 against service, FBI, state police, and swat team members. He’s a dentist. And a great shot.

LFI, btw is Massad Ayoob’s shooting school which teaches laws in regards to shootings along with marksmanship. Mr. Ayoob does a great job of teaching you both how to survive a gunfight and the aftermath later, legalwise.

As for if I could make the shot during stress, I don’t know. I hope I can and have made the decision to shoot if necessary. You need the appropriate mindset to survive such a serious situation.

I’ve been taught to see the front sight during such a situation. The funny thing about this stuff is the ones who tend to survive concentrate very tightly on their shooting while shooting. Imagine that.

[quote]NDM wrote:
Professor X wrote:
brand wrote:
So, they hit him with the car and then ram into a police van twice. Yep, that constitutes a lethal force encounter. Without being there you really can’t judge the guys involved as you don’t know all the circumstances. Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy.

Plain clothes operations are common and have been in the NYPD for a long time. How else are they to observe first hand what goes on in the club?

The number of rounds fired doesn’t really matter. Handguns are not the all powerfull weapons that you see in the movies, especially when having to penetrate an automobile. Once they made the decision to fire their weapons they needed to fire however many rounds it took to achieve the desired outcome. 50 or 5 makes no difference.

What is the desired outcome on someone who isn’t firing back?

The desired outcome is the car stopping, which means taking out the driver. Even if the driver didn’t know the guy he hit was a cop, he still tried to kill someone. And regardless of who that person is, they have the right to protect their own life.

It sounds like it went down like this. Undercover officer gets hit by suspects car. Suspects continue to ram van. Suspect then puts car into reverse and directs car into the area where another officer is. Officer in van gets out, opens fire. They continue to fire until car stops. Guy gets out of car, runs away. He wasn’t shot in the back while running away. He could have been.

50 rounds happens pretty fast. We have 5 shooters. We’re talking about semi-auto pistols that have 15+1 rounds. They fire as fast as you can pull the trigger. They weren’t armed with muskets. According to the story, most of the rounds ended up going through the doors of the car. One guy was shot 11 times and is going to live. Another was shot 3 times below the waist. The driver was shot 3 times, one shot to the neck being fatal. And as stated above, one guy managed to get away probably without being shot. 21 bullets hit the car. 50 rounds doesn’t seem like that many when you break it down.

You can’t be that accurate with your shots in a situation like that. I can hit a 6"x6" target with an M-16 variant rifle from 100 yards away, iron sights, consistently. Now, if I was in a very stressful situation, I would be lucky to hit that target from 10 yards away once, with a full mag. Sometimes you need to fire a lot to hit what you are shooting at.

Again, this situation is a shame, but let’s not jump on the cops just yet.

[/quote]

Good post

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Guys who scream, “yo, go get my gun” aren’t usually the bravest. They talk more because they act less.[/quote]

Would you bet your life on that if you were in that situation? It is easy to judge after the fact when you weren’t there.

I’m not going to judge them for their actions. You simply cannot get all the facts by reading a newspaper article.

[quote]Digital Chainsaw wrote:
NDM wrote:
Professor X wrote:
NDM wrote:
The desired outcome is the car stopping, which means taking out the driver. Even if the driver didn’t know the guy he hit was a cop, he still tried to kill someone. And regardless of who that person is, they have the right to protect their own life.

Assumption number one. Again, the undercover cop WALKED IN FRONT OF THE MOVING CAR. It isn’t like they ran on the sidewalk and hit him. This was the statement by the speaker (whoever he actually is) for the police department in that video…that you apparently didn’t pay very close attention to.

that alone raises some questions.

Let’s discuss why someone who was thought to have a gun on him…would need to say, “yo, go get my gun”. Didn’t the undercover cop claim that he saw him pat his waist indicating he had a gun on him? Sounds pretty strange to anyone paying attention.

Maybe he was talking shit, maybe he wasn’t. This isn’t a game of a poker, you don’t call someone’s bluff and hope it’s just a bluff. He could have had the gun on him, or he could have had it in the car. A gun wasn’t found. They didn’t know there wasn’t a gun until the search warrant was issued. Sorry, but when someone says they have a gun, it’s best to believe them and act as if they do. If you were on a plane and someone said they had a bomb would you call bullshit on them? I think not.

First off, I agree with you on the threat of a gun scenario (see my first post in this thread). However, with that in mind and after viewing the police debriefing, some significant facts come to light that really makes me wonder about their procedure:

  1. One of the undercover officers inside the club heard the guy brag to a stripper that he had a gun and saw him pat his waist to indicate where it was at approx. 3 AM. The officer immediately went outside to report what he had seen and heard to his supervisor.

  2. The suspect and his friends exited the club at approx. 4 AM. and <screeeeech!>

Hold on. An entire hour passed between a possibly armed suspect being identified and him exiting the club where an arrest could be safely made.

Am I unreasonable in thinking that in that ensuing time uniformed officers should have been standing by to shake down the suspect the moment he stepped out of the club?

All this other overheard dialogue where the suspect says, “yo, go get my gun” to his friend in reference to a pissing match he’s having with a civilian third party becomes irrelevant when you consider, the suspect was already identified while inside the club an hour earlier!

Also, upon overhearing this second, more threatening statement,why allow him to even enter his vehicle, where he could possibly have access to more weapons and/or (as did happen) use the car as a weapon?

They let these guys drive for half a block before suddenly surrounding them with plain clothes cops in unmarked vehicles in a crime-ridden area.

I, for one, (knowing neither I nor anyone else in the vehicle had a firearm) would be shitting my pants and doing whatever it took to get the hell out of there before I was completely surrounded; in a car you are sitting ducks to multiple, armed attackers.

Nobody wants to address my posts…

I wonder why?

[/quote]

I’ll give it a try:

  1. Not real sure on this one. Would having uniformed officers outside be advantageous? Perhaps. Perhaps the presence of uniformed officers would immediately bring the situation to a suitable close. Knowing what we know know after the fact (no handgun was present) that would have likely been the way it played out. The officers didn’t know that and were operating on the assumption that he was armed. In that case, perhaps the subject sees the marked units outside and things go bad inside the club as a result. You really can’t predict human behavior. Perhaps they thought they would have a better chance of observing the potentially armed subject until he was in a postition least likely to get bystanders hurt. Which leads to…

Allowing the subject to enter his vehicle. This could go either way. You can go with the school of thought that he should be contacted before reaching the vehicle to avoid potential weapons inside the car and use of the car as a weapon. However, operating under the assumption that he was armed that would allow the subject easy access to the weapon on his person.

He could address the officers with his weapon, flee on foot afterwards, etc. This also greatly increases the chances of some bystander getting hurt. You could allow him to enter the vehicle where he is contained and his responses are limited. There are tactics specific to vehicle takedowns. Obviously it went bad and people got killed.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions when something like this happens. I simply don’t think they should be judged by the limited information the public has. Unless you were there you really can’t know exactly what happened and why.

I have many questions…

Why would a person tell his associate to “get my gun” when he had no gun to get?

Why would a person who, the police presumed had a gun tell someone to get his gun?

Why would the police allow a presumed armed and dangerous individual to leave the club walk to his car, get in his car (w/ his associates) drive the car off?

Why would the police not identify themselves before the incident got to the car?

Why would a group of men, who had no guns or narcotics flee from and then attack a group of men identifying themselves as police?

Why fire 50 rounds at unarmed citizens?

Why chain said citizens to their hospital beds after you have mistakenly shot them?

From todays NYTimes

November 27, 2006
50 Shots Fired, and the Experts Offer a Theory
By MICHAEL WILSON

It is known in police parlance as ?contagious shooting? ? gunfire that spreads among officers who believe that they, or their colleagues, are facing a threat. It spreads like germs, like laughter, or fear. An officer fires, so his colleagues do, too.

The phenomenon appears to have happened last year, when eight officers fired 43 shots at an armed man in Queens, killing him. In July, three officers fired 26 shots at a pit bull that had bitten a chunk out of an officer?s leg in a Bronx apartment building. And there have been other episodes: in 1995, in the Bronx, officers fired 125 bullets during a bodega robbery, with one officer firing 45 rounds.

Just what happened on Saturday is still being investigated. Police experts, however, suggested in interviews yesterday that contagious shooting played a role in a fatal police shooting in Queens Saturday morning. According to the police account, five officers fired 50 shots at a bridegroom who, leaving his bachelor party at a strip club, twice drove his car into a minivan carrying plainclothes police officers investigating the club.

The bridegroom, Sean Bell, who was to be married hours later, was killed, and two of his friends were wounded, one critically.

To the layman, and to the loved ones of those who were shot, 50 shots seems a startlingly high number, especially since the men were found to be unarmed. And police experts concede that the number was high. Yet they also note that in those chaotic and frightening fractions of a second between quiet and gunfire, nothing is clear-cut, and blood is pumping furiously. Even 50 shots can be squeezed off in a matter of seconds.

?We can teach as much as we can,? said John C. Cerar, a retired commander of the Police Department?s firearms training section. ?The fog of the moment happens. Different things happen that people don?t understand. Most people really believe what it?s like in television, that a police officer can take a gun and shoot someone out of the saddle.?

The five officers involved in the shooting were placed on administrative duty yesterday ? without their guns ? as the Police Department and the Queens district attorney investigated the circumstances surrounding the shooting, and relatives of Mr. Bell, joined by the Rev. Al Sharpton, staged a rally and a march to demand answers.

The officers have not yet been interviewed by police investigators or prosecutors to give their account.

Again and again, the focus of the day returned to the number of bullets that went flying.

One of the officers fired more than half the rounds, pausing to reload, and then emptying it again, 31 shots in all, according to the police. Another officer fired 11 shots. The others fired four shots, three shots and one shot apiece, the police said.

But it is the total number of shots that shook and angered the families of the men and community leaders. ?How many shots?? Mr. Sharpton asked yesterday, over and over, in a chant at a rally in a park near Mary Immaculate Hospital, where the wounded men were being treated. The crowd called back, ?Fifty!?

Statistically, the shooting is an aberration. The number of shots fired per officer who acted in the 112 shooting incidents this year, through Nov. 19, is 3.2, said Paul J. Browne, a department spokesman. Last year, that number was 3.7 shots fired per officer in 109 incidents. They are down from 4.6 in 2000 and 5.0 in 1995.

But shootings with high numbers of shots fired, however rare, call to mind dark events of the city?s past, like the 1999 killing of Gidone Busch, who was clutching a hammer when officers fired 12 times, and, most notably, the shooting of Amadou Diallo, an unarmed West African immigrant who died in a hail of 41 bullets, also in 1999.

In the 1995 Bronx bodega robbery in which officers fired 125 shots, the suspects did not fire back. ?They were shooting to the echo of their own gunfire,? a former police official said at the time.

The shooting on Saturday unfolded in a flash. An undercover officer posted inside the Club Kalua, a site of frequent drug, weapon and prostitution complaints in Jamaica, overheard an exchange between a stripper and a man that led the officer to suspect the man was armed, Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly said on Saturday. The undercover officer alerted the officers acting as backup outside ? there were seven officers in all ? about 4 a.m., setting into motion the events to follow later.

Eight men left the club and argued briefly with another man, with one from the group saying, ?Yo, get my gun,? Mr. Kelly said.

The eight men apparently split into two groups of four, with one group piling into a Nissan Altima driven by Mr. Bell, Commissioner Kelly said. As an undercover detective who had been following the group on foot approached the vehicle, Mr. Bell drove into him, striking his leg, before plowing into a minivan carrying two backup officers, the commissioner said.

The Altima reversed, mounting a sidewalk and hitting the lowered gate of a building before going forward and striking the van again. The officers opened fire, striking Mr. Bell, 23, twice, in the right arm and neck, Commissioner Kelly said. The critically wounded man, Joseph Guzman, 31, was struck 11 times, and the third man, Trent Benefield, 23, three times. Mr. Kelly said it was unclear whether there was a fourth man in the car and what became of him.

A person familiar with the case who knows the detectives? version of events said yesterday that it was Mr. Guzman who asked for his gun, and that the first undercover detective on foot clearly identified himself to the occupants of the car and, gun drawn, told them to get out. Instead, the person said, they roared toward him. That detective fired the first shot.

In the ensuing barrage, one shot struck the window of a house, another a window at an AirTrain platform, injuring two Port Authority police officers with flying glass. It appeared that the Altima was struck by 21 shots, fewer than half of the number fired, the police said.

The whole thing most likely took less than a minute. The officer who fired 31 times could have done so in fewer than 20 seconds, with the act of reloading taking less than one second, Mr. Cerar said. The 49 shots that followed the undercover detective?s first may have been contagious shooting, said one former police official who insisted on anonymity because the investigation is continuing.

?He shoots, and you shoot, and the assumption is he has a good reason for shooting. You saw it in Diallo. You see it in a lot of shootings,? the official said. ?You just chime in. I don?t mean the term loosely. But you see your partner, and your reflexes take over.?

The phenomenon of officers? firing dozens of shots at a time dates back in part to 1993 and the department?s switch from six-shot .38-caliber revolvers, cumbersome to reload, to semiautomatic pistols that hold 15 rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber. The change, like any of its magnitude, followed years of studies and differences of opinion, and finally came into effect after the 1986 murder of a police officer, Scott Gadell, who was reloading his six-shooter when he was fatally shot.

Commissioner Kelly, during his first term in the office, in 1992 and 1993, ordered a switch to semiautomatics, but ordered the clips modified to hold only 10 rounds. That modification was later undone, prompting him, after Mr. Diallo?s shooting six years later, to speculate in a New York Times op-ed article, ?Now may be the time to re-impose it and to intensify training that teaches police officers to hold their fire until they know why they are shooting.?

Eugene O?Donnell, a professor of police studies at John Jay College, said a high number of shots fired underscores the threat the officers felt.

?The only reason to be shooting in New York City is that you or someone else is going to be killed and it?s going to be imminent,? he said. ?It?s highly unlikely you fire a shot or two shots. You fire as many shots as you have to, to extinguish the threat. You don?t fire one round and say: ?Did I hit him? Is he hit?? ?

Mr. Cerar said, ?Until we have some substitute for a firearm, there will always be a situation where more rounds are fired than in other situations.?

William K. Rashbaum contributed reporting.

[quote]emdawgz1 wrote:
I have many questions…

Why would a person tell his associate to “get my gun” when he had no gun to get?
[/quote]
He is a shit talking idiot.

He was trying to be a tough guy.

They certainly seem like idiots because this is a massive mistake.

Again, the cops look like idiots.

Because the are idiots.

Because these unarmed idiots escalated the situation by trying to run over a cop they may, or may not have known was a cop.

[quote]
Why chain said citizens to their hospital beds after you have mistakenly shot them?[/quote]
Standard procedure to handcuff everyone. These people might levae their hospital beds to go and get their non-existent guns.

Everyone involved in this looks bad.

It is likely that the events did not occur as they have been reported. I reserve judgement until more facts are in, but it looks like the cops screwed by letting these guys get in their car.

This focus on the number of shots fired is pure sensationalism.

The focus should be on why the cops let these guys get in their cars and if it was a justifiable shooting.

It looks like it may have been justifiable but it also looks like it was a major blunder to let these guys in the car.

Of course most of the media coverage will be on the number of shots.

There have been some decent arguments made in this thread. It IS however slightly disturbing to see so many police apologists. This is likely due to our society (as a whole) being so complacent towards to the application of authority. We see this EVERYWHERE.

To the “cops” who have responded, your opinion carries quite a bit of weight, but it is jaded… and rightfully so. Yet, how many of you have ended up unwittingly on the opposing side of law enforcement?

I don’t have to walk in your shoes in this situation, as I am not the one killing people. You want to be a cop, you need to deal with the inherent double standard. Comes with the territory. Don’t like it? That’s good evidence you are a shitty cop.

To the rest of the people who have the “they are cops so don’t question” mentality, I would highly recommend you move out of your parents basement.

Really, your perspective will change quite a bit… and maybe, just maybe you will hold those who can LEGALLY TAKE YOUR LIFE to a higher standard. For you to give any form of lethal authority carte blanche is a sure sign that you haven’t lived enough life to recognize its value.

If I were in this situation and I were leaving a club/bar in a shitty neighborhood and half a block away I was surrounded by a van and guys in regular clothes who by all accounts never addressed themselves as police, I would get the fuck out of dodge.

I certainly wouldn’t sit in my car and let them surround me, I would floor it just like he did. What the hell was he supposed to do? I highly doubt “kill his guy” was his thought as he floored it, the guy walked in front of his damn car in an attempt to block it and the driver panicked.

These poor sons a bitches had no clue these were cops, they probably thought they were going to get robbed. These cops made no attempt at identifying themselves.

These guys did not hit a cop, they hit one of many guys in regular clothes who were trying to surround his car in again, a bad neighborhood.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
This focus on the number of shots fired is pure sensationalism.

The focus should be on why the cops let these guys get in their cars and if it was a justifiable shooting.

It looks like it may have been justifiable but it also looks like it was a major blunder to let these guys in the car.

Of course most of the media coverage will be on the number of shots.[/quote]

I disagree, the number of shots is an indication of the amount of deadly force used. Was it excessive? I think so.

Were these guys Choir boys who were on their way to bible study? No. its possible that they were impaired by alcohol. But, police officers, by virtue of the office they hold, the authority they are given MUST adhere to a higher standard.

Police should always try to resolve issues in such a way as to not use deadly force. They should have grabbed this guy BEFORE he had an opportunity to use his non existent gun.
Were these guys completely innocent? Possibly not. Should this guy be dead today. No.

The real area of concern for me is this. As a black man who lives in a big city. Should i be fearful anytime police are in the area? I dont break the law and i dont carry weapons. However will the police shoot me because they assume i have a weapon?

I was with a friend and we were stopped by NJ state troopers, the second officer who approached from the passengers side had his weapon drawn. I could have been shot. Did that situation require deadly force, or even the threat of such?

Look at the Amadou Diallo case. 41 shots at an unarmed man who pulled his wallet.

It just seems excessive to me.

[quote]Shaved wrote:
If I were in this situation and I were leaving a club/bar in a shitty neighborhood and half a block away I was surrounded by a van and guys in regular clothes who by all accounts never addressed themselves as police, I would get the fuck out of dodge.

I certainly wouldn’t sit in my car and let them surround me, I would floor it just like he did. What the hell was he supposed to do? I highly doubt “kill his guy” was his thought as he floored it, the guy walked in front of his damn car in an attempt to block it and the driver panicked.

These poor sons a bitches had no clue these were cops, they probably thought they were going to get robbed. These cops made no attempt at identifying themselves.

These guys did not hit a cop, they hit one of many guys in regular clothes who were trying to surround his car in again, a bad neighborhood.[/quote]

And thats what the cop defenders do not understand or willing disregard.

The COPS said its a terrible area of town. So as you said, how would you react when some regular clothes man tries to surround your car in a “bad area of town?” Get the fuck out of there to save YOUR life.

This situation looks like a complete break down of police procedure that ended up in murder.

[quote]emdawgz1 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
This focus on the number of shots fired is pure sensationalism.

The focus should be on why the cops let these guys get in their cars and if it was a justifiable shooting.

It looks like it may have been justifiable but it also looks like it was a major blunder to let these guys in the car.

Of course most of the media coverage will be on the number of shots.

I disagree, the number of shots is an indication of the amount of deadly force used. Was it excessive? I think so.

Were these guys Choir boys who were on their way to bible study? No. its possible that they were impaired by alcohol. But, police officers, by virtue of the office they hold, the authority they are given MUST adhere to a higher standard.

Police should always try to resolve issues in such a way as to not use deadly force. They should have grabbed this guy BEFORE he had an opportunity to use his non existent gun.
Were these guys completely innocent? Possibly not. Should this guy be dead today. No.

The real area of concern for me is this. As a black man who lives in a big city. Should i be fearful anytime police are in the area? I dont break the law and i dont carry weapons. However will the police shoot me because they assume i have a weapon?

I was with a friend and we were stopped by NJ state troopers, the second officer who approached from the passengers side had his weapon drawn. I could have been shot. Did that situation require deadly force, or even the threat of such?

Look at the Amadou Diallo case. 41 shots at an unarmed man who pulled his wallet.

It just seems excessive to me.[/quote]

One shot at Diallo was excessive. The number of shots fired is merely a distraction.

Once the cop decides to shoot he will likely keep shooting until his gun is empty and/or his target is down.

It takes an unrealistically high level of training to change this natural reaction.

The area to focus on is WHY the police decided to use deadly force in these cases.

They clearly fucked up in the Diallo case. Shooting a man because he does not understand instructions in ridiculous. I would have understood if they would have tackled him and cuffed him, but they made a horrible decision to use deadly force. Once that decision is made it wouldn’t matter if he was killed with one bullet or 100. They were going to shoot until he was down.

This case the shooting looks like it may have been justified. If the guy in the car is ramming a police vehicle and trying to run into a cop on foot they are justified in using deadly force.

How many shots are fired is secondary to why the were fired.

It also looks like the cops put themselves in a bad situation by making multiple mistakes throughout the evening by not having uniformed back up, possibly not clearly identifying themselves and by letting these guys get in their cars.

If the reporting has been accurate I would fire the cops involved. Not for the shooting but for the horrible decisions that made it necessary.

[quote]PGA wrote:
Shaved wrote:
If I were in this situation and I were leaving a club/bar in a shitty neighborhood and half a block away I was surrounded by a van and guys in regular clothes who by all accounts never addressed themselves as police, I would get the fuck out of dodge.

I certainly wouldn’t sit in my car and let them surround me, I would floor it just like he did. What the hell was he supposed to do? I highly doubt “kill his guy” was his thought as he floored it, the guy walked in front of his damn car in an attempt to block it and the driver panicked.

These poor sons a bitches had no clue these were cops, they probably thought they were going to get robbed. These cops made no attempt at identifying themselves.

These guys did not hit a cop, they hit one of many guys in regular clothes who were trying to surround his car in again, a bad neighborhood.

And thats what the cop defenders do not understand or willing disregard.

The COPS said its a terrible area of town. So as you said, how would you react when some regular clothes man tries to surround your car in a “bad area of town?” Get the fuck out of there to save YOUR life.

This situation looks like a complete break down of police procedure that ended up in murder.[/quote]

“A person familiar with the case who knows the detectives? version of events said yesterday that it was Mr. Guzman who asked for his gun, and that the first undercover detective on foot clearly identified himself to the occupants of the car and, gun drawn, told them to get out. Instead, the person said, they roared toward him. That detective fired the first shot.”

The undercover blew his cover and announced he was a cop. The driver then tried to run him over. You guys made a giant bullshit sandwich, and I think it’s time you took a bite.

Murder? MURDER? It was self defence! Keep screaming injustice. You’re a joke.

[quote]NDM wrote:
“A person familiar with the case who knows the detectives? version of events said yesterday that it was Mr. Guzman who asked for his gun, and that the first undercover detective on foot clearly identified himself to the occupants of the car and, gun drawn, told them to get out. Instead, the person said, they roared toward him. That detective fired the first shot.”

The undercover blew his cover and announced he was a cop. The driver then tried to run him over. You guys made a giant bullshit sandwich, and I think it’s time you took a bite.

Murder? MURDER? It was self defence! Keep screaming injustice. You’re a joke.[/quote]

My, uncles, friends, mothers, sisters, friends, blah blah blah. The spokesman during the confrence didnt mention they identified themselves.

[quote]NDM wrote:
Wrote stuf, saving T-Nation storage space[/quote]

And keep up with the insults. Gives more credance to your posts :wink:

[quote]PGA wrote:
NDM wrote:
Wrote stuf, saving T-Nation storage space

And keep up with the insults. Gives more credance to your posts ;)[/quote]

I don’t lose credence because I said you were a joke. You ARE a joke. If you want to save T-Nation storage space, don’t post your BS propaganda here. If you really have a problem with what the police did, why don’t you do something about it? You’re one of those guys that bitches about everything, but doesn’t want to do shit about it. Douchebag.