NYPD's Finest?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]JeffreyJ wrote:
Due. you don’t know what your talking about, Unless you have been there and looked the tiger right in the eye , go back to your keyboard.

I was and am one of the top shooters in my department and scred 97 or better at the range.

I hit my assailant 2 times out of 17 at the big distance of 8 feet. It changes things when you are are about be dead. Sights trigger control everything goes out the window,

PGA email me, I am the supervisor of a gang unit ina major metro police Department. Go for a ridealong and I will let you be first in the door at a shooting scene and we will see how calm, collected and and what wonderful decisions you make, You are probably right I have only done this job for 24 yeras what do I know?[/quote]

Jeff, there is a big difference between a shooting scene and someone who they belive might have a gun.

Suggesting a civilian go into a room first, who has no training? That suggestion and logic is absurd.

I am sure you have been in situations where you had to shoot. Thats a given. But how many times have you shot into a car of someone who doesnt have a gun, didnt see a gun, saw no shots coming from the car?

And as was said, how the hell could they miss a car that many times when they weren’t being fired at?

The more I think about it the more it looks like the police panicked under suspicion. I wonder if the officer that jumped out of the van and began shooting, startled the other officers and they thought the shots were coming from the car?

22

[quote]tom63 wrote:
I’ve been trained at a high level with defensive pistol use, and the 50 rounds isn’t that disturbing. If they had a right to shoot, the number of rounds is irrelevant.

If they had no right to shoot, one round is excessive. It’s not the number, but whether they should have fired in the first place.

With a few officers, 50 rounds could be fired in 5 seconds, not 10.

But that’s not the point, even though people always focus on it. The point is I don’t think they should have even fired.

What makes a shooting legitimate or not, is often hard to understand for an untrained individual. For instance, and average person can cover 21 + ft. plus in under two seconds. this puts a police officer at risk if a person doesn’t comply with commands.

A person with a concealed knife could be a lethal threat and appear unarmed. Testing has shown even older, arthritic people could cover 7 yards in less than two seconds.

As for a car, there are multiple factors, but in this case it looks like the cops screwed up big time with the information listed.
[/quote]

No doubt 50 shots with 5 officers isnt that much. But ONE officer shot 31 times. Thats three times as many as any other officer at the scene.

23

Sometimes I think that the type of people drawn to law enforcement want to kick in doors and destroy property and humiliate people and kill those who don’t yield to their authority.

Maybe we should legalize drugs. So many of these situations revolve around cops looking to bust drug dealers/users. Lets see - traffic stops, search warrants, people losing their freedom and getting criminal records. Murder by police. If we legalize drugs those things go away. We can focus the drug war money on other things like health care and education.

24

This would be the third time in two weeks that I try to shed some light on police use of force situations. I’m not going to bother.

All you guys that are trying to explain how the police could have been justified, how the number of shots doesn’t mean anything really given the stress of a combat situation etc…you are wasting your time. There are a couple of guys on here who carry a pretty severe bias against the police and don’t want to hear anything else. Like somebody mentioned above, the one guy has no problem using the term “pigs” in thread titles.

I’m pretty sure no amount of education will open their minds, so I would leave it be.

25

[quote]JD430 wrote:
This would be the third time in two weeks that I try to shed some light on police use of force situations. I’m not going to bother.

All you guys that are trying to explain how the police could have been justified, how the number of shots doesn’t mean anything really given the stress of a combat situation etc…you are wasting your time. There are a couple of guys on here who carry a pretty severe bias against the police and don’t want to hear anything else. Like somebody mentioned above, the one guy has no problem using the term “pigs” in thread titles.

I’m pretty sure no amount of education will open their minds, so I would leave it be.[/quote]

Let’s be truthful here. The last post I responded to you in the Politics forum, you were attempting to justify why three cops who were OUT OF UNIFORM would run into the house (breaking down the door) of a 92 year old woman WITHOUT SHOWING A BADGE OR ANY FORM OF ID based on a warrant which was a situation that ended up with the 92 year old woman firing at who she thought were intruders, her getting killed, and three cops getting injured.

That situation, and this one sound shady as all hell yet you want people to simply gloss over it and justify it?

When authorities are given weapons to control the population, expect for questionable situations…to actually be fucking questioned. Both of those incidents point to a problem with police tactics, not a problem with the public for not understanding it better.

26

From what I can tell from the article, the guys who got shot had no idea they were dealing with police officers.

They got into a verbal confrontation with one of the plain clothes officers (who apparently never identified himself as a police officer) in the parking lot, and as they were trying to pull out, found themselves about to be boxed in by multiple unmarked vehicles with the guy they got into a pissing contest with attempting to block their forward progress.

EDIT: Upon viewing the video of the police’s description of the incident, it is clear that the verbal exchange outside of the club was between the suspect and an unrelated 3rd party who left without incident. Everything else in this post stands.

I can’t see how anyone in this situation wouldn’t think they were about to be robbed and/or killed by a gang of some kind. I believe the driver knew he was being boxed in and attempted a last ditch effort to ram his way through to safety.

Another issue is the fact that the guy threatened the use of a weapon; whether he had one or not is irrelevant. I know that in my state, if I were to say to someone during an argument, “let me get my gun” I would be charged with verbal assault and I would have my CCW permanently yanked.

Likewise, law enforcement or anyone else working in an armed capacity for that matter, must take all threats seriously and take precautionary measures. This is where I think the NYPD royally fucked up in this case.

I’m going to venture a guess and assume that the undercover officer was wired in some way to communicate with the officers concealed in the surrounding vehicles. As soon as the “go get my gun” threat was uttered, the undercover cop should have 1) identified himself as a police officer, and 2) been signaling for uniformed officers to close in with weapons drawn before the suspects could enter the vehicle if possible.

If this had taken place and the guy still chose to use his car as a weapon against people he knew were NYPD, then I would have no sympathy for him whatsoever, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

27

[quote]Professor X wrote:
JD430 wrote:
This would be the third time in two weeks that I try to shed some light on police use of force situations. I’m not going to bother.

All you guys that are trying to explain how the police could have been justified, how the number of shots doesn’t mean anything really given the stress of a combat situation etc…you are wasting your time. There are a couple of guys on here who carry a pretty severe bias against the police and don’t want to hear anything else. Like somebody mentioned above, the one guy has no problem using the term “pigs” in thread titles.

I’m pretty sure no amount of education will open their minds, so I would leave it be.

Let’s be truthful here. The last post I responded to you in the Politics forum, you were attempting to justify why three cops who were OUT OF UNIFORM would run into the house (breaking down the door) of a 92 year old woman WITHOUT SHOWING A BADGE OR ANY FORM OF ID based on a warrant which was a situation that ended up with the 92 year old woman firing at who she thought were intruders, her getting killed, and three cops getting injured.

That situation, and this one sound shady as all hell yet you want people to simply gloss over it and justify it?

When authorities are given weapons to control the population, expect for questionable situations…to actually be fucking questioned. Both of those incidents point to a problem with police tactics, not a problem with the public for not understanding it better.[/quote]

Re-read the other posts if you want. I explained to you how that drug raid may have happened, that they were probably wearing raid vests(which seems to be enough of a uniform for 99.999999% of drug raids) and they had no duty to knock on a crack house door to show ID, for tactical and legal reasons.
You didnt want to hear it.

I don’t mind analyzing police actions. I do it myself every single day of my life. However, you owe it to them to a. educate yourself a little on police work(legal issues, combat stress and so on) and b. don’t make any assumption based on reading one or two slanted articles when it will take a very involved investigation to get to the bottom of what happened.

28

[quote]One what Digital Chainsaw wrote;
[/quote]

This is exactly how I feel about it. Both this situation and the one I described about the 92 year old woman involve the police suddenly doing a hell of a lot of action OUT OF UNIFORM. Why? Why are so many cops suddenly riding around in unmarked cars giving traffic tickets? Why are so many acting like they are in uniform when they aren’t and then trying to blame the civilian for why they didn’t just act like it was really a cop?

How about cops stop acting so much out of uniform? Wouldn’t that have prevented this situation and the killing of the 92 year old woman? Is this a new cop fad? How long before people pay attention to it and ask for it to stop?

29

[quote]JD430 wrote:
Re-read the other posts if you want. I explained to you how that drug raid may have happened, that they were probably wearing raid vests(which seems to be enough of a uniform for 99.999999% of drug raids) and they had no duty to knock on a crack house door to show ID, for tactical and legal reasons.
You didnt want to hear it.

I don’t mind analyzing police actions. I do it myself every single day of my life. However, you owe it to them to a. educate yourself a little on police work(legal issues, combat stress and so on) and b. don’t make any assumption based on reading one or two slanted articles when it will take a very involved investigation to get to the bottom of what happened.

[/quote]

I didn’t want to hear it? When people who are not involved end up dead, people start asking questions. You can’t state one hand that all evidence isn’t in yet…and then claim that no one should be asking why a 92 year old woman got killed and we should just trust the cops in every situation. I’m sorry, guy, but I’ve seen enough from cops to NOT trust them as a whole.

That doesn’t describe any “hatred” of cops because I have a frat brother who is one. It describes how I feel about an attitude that I see often…as if many get off on the power. That mindset is dangerous and I seriously doubt it is that rare in those who actually feel driven to become cops in the first place. Add personal human bias to the situation and you get people dying for the wrong reasons.

30

[quote]PGA wrote:
NDM wrote:
Dumbass. When they were in the bar, the guy said to a stripper that he was carrying a gun. Go watch it again. I was just doing a search, and all your comments towards law enforcement were negative. So tell me, what did a cop ever do to you? I really want to know where this hatred is coming from.

Red flag? I would say the guy asking for his gun, threatening to kill a man, and then trying to kill people by running them over is a red flag.

Ok I dint insult you. Nice to see that you cant control yourself. I hope you’re not a cop…

He PATTED his side. Since when does that equate I HAVE A GUN?

So I say to someone “i’m going to kill you let me get my gun.” That gives officers the right to plug me? Brilliant![/quote]

Alright, I will apologize for insulting you. I doubt you will apologize for your insults on the police, but that is another matter. And about controlling myself…Calling you a dumbass has nothing to do with controlling myself. It was my opinion of you, and I’m not in a uniform right now (although I do wear a service uniform) so I can tell you how I feel about you.

You’ve made remarks about police being nothing but donut eaters in a thread about bulking for police work. Pretty funny pal. Maybe you should apologize to the officers on this site for that LAME comment.

So what if I have 52 posts? Does that mean my opinion means less than yours? Maybe if I spent a shitload of time trying to make a group of people look bad because I don’t like them, my number of posts will look more respectable.

Now, I’ll let you be for the time being and let you get back to digging up dirty stories about cops where ever you can find them.

31

I’ve realized that there is no chance that anyone’s mind is going to change over this. If you don’t like the cops, whatever. I would just appreciate it if you don’t air out your hate here. If your shinny little BMW ever goes missing, don’t call the police. Go find it yourself, and ask for it back nicely.

32

[quote]NDM wrote:
Alright, I will apologize for insulting you. I doubt you will apologize for your insults on the police, but that is another matter. And about controlling myself…Calling you a dumbass has nothing to do with controlling myself. It was my opinion of you, and I’m not in a uniform right now (although I do wear a service uniform) so I can tell you how I feel about you.

You’ve made remarks about police being nothing but donut eaters in a thread about bulking for police work. Pretty funny pal. Maybe you should apologize to the officers on this site for that LAME comment.

So what if I have 52 posts? Does that mean my opinion means less than yours? Maybe if I spent a shitload of time trying to make a group of people look bad because I don’t like them, my number of posts will look more respectable.

Now, I’ll let you be for the time being and let you get back to digging up dirty stories about cops where ever you can find them.
[/quote]

There is nothing for me to apologize for. I’ve said numerous times there are good cops out there. But since you, as you claim I do, only focus on the bad. Go back and read my thread about the Florida cop getting fired becaues he made a blanket statement about cops maybe being chubby. There was a cop in there that I thanked and said we need more of. But ya know, I hate all cops.

But since you already made up your mind about me, ya know guilty before proven innocent, think what you want.

For you and everyone that thinks I hate cops you’re wrong. If I see things I dont agree with I will sure as hell voice my opinion on it. I will be one of the first to point out when a cop is being a pig and I will give props when I see good things. If there was more good news about cops in the news that I come across I like that.

And my thread calling cops “Stupid Pigs” was 100% justified in that case.

I find it hilarious that ANYTHING questionable that cops do, you and fellow bretheren (not all) have a gang mentality and have to defend. Its like its wrong to question them.

33

Since Reverend Sharpton has elected to enter into the fracas, it will not matter what the truth behind this tragedy is. He will just help polarize extremists on both sides of the situation. Chances are that both sides were partially right and partially wrong. The only thing I am absolutely sure of is that all the participants wish they could rewind the film and edit the outcome.

34

[quote]NDM wrote:
I’ve realized that there is no chance that anyone’s mind is going to change over this. If you don’t like the cops, whatever. I would just appreciate it if you don’t air out your hate here. If your shinny little BMW ever goes missing, don’t call the police. Go find it yourself, and ask for it back nicely. [/quote]

So because I question cops actions, dislike some, and dont just roll over and accept their every moves I cant go to them for help? Get a grip on reality officer.

So it looks like you’re the type of officer that dislikes anything negative said about cops. I sure as hell hope most are not like that.

If the public didnt question authorities actions how fucked up do you think your profession would be. We’d be in a complete police state right now. If you were not held accountable for your actions then abuse of authority would be rampant. You can take that to the bank.

35

[quote]PGA wrote:
NDM wrote:
Alright, I will apologize for insulting you. I doubt you will apologize for your insults on the police, but that is another matter. And about controlling myself…Calling you a dumbass has nothing to do with controlling myself. It was my opinion of you, and I’m not in a uniform right now (although I do wear a service uniform) so I can tell you how I feel about you.

You’ve made remarks about police being nothing but donut eaters in a thread about bulking for police work. Pretty funny pal. Maybe you should apologize to the officers on this site for that LAME comment.

So what if I have 52 posts? Does that mean my opinion means less than yours? Maybe if I spent a shitload of time trying to make a group of people look bad because I don’t like them, my number of posts will look more respectable.

Now, I’ll let you be for the time being and let you get back to digging up dirty stories about cops where ever you can find them.

There is nothing for me to apologize for. I’ve said numerous times there are good cops out there. But since you, as you claim I do, only focus on the bad. Go back and read my thread about the Florida cop getting fired becaues he made a blanket statement about cops maybe being chubby. There was a cop in there that I thanked and said we need more of. But ya know, I hate all cops.

But since you already made up your mind about me, ya know guilty before proven innocent, think what you want.

For you and everyone that thinks I hate cops you’re wrong. If I see things I dont agree with I will sure as hell voice my opinion on it. I will be one of the first to point out when a cop is being a pig and I will give props when I see good things. If there was more good news about cops in the news that I come across I like that.

And my thread calling cops “Stupid Pigs” was 100% justified in that case.

I find it hilarious that ANYTHING questionable that cops do, you and fellow bretheren (not all) have a gang mentality and have to defend. Its like its wrong to question them.[/quote]

I didn’t say it was wrong to question them. I said it was wrong to assume they were guilty before innocent., just the thing YOU accused me of. I said that this incident was tragic and should be investigated to find out what happened. I also said that we should give the veteran officers who have never fired their weapons at a person before the benefit of the doubt. And it’s not a “gang” mentality, it’s more of a family mentality.

And no, you were not justified in referring to any sworn officer as a “pig”. That would be like me saying I was justified in calling you a dumbass.

36

[quote]PGA wrote:
NDM wrote:
I’ve realized that there is no chance that anyone’s mind is going to change over this. If you don’t like the cops, whatever. I would just appreciate it if you don’t air out your hate here. If your shinny little BMW ever goes missing, don’t call the police. Go find it yourself, and ask for it back nicely.

So because I question cops actions, dislike some, and dont just roll over and accept their every moves I cant go to them for help? Get a grip on reality officer.

So it looks like you’re the type of officer that dislikes anything negative said about cops. I sure as hell hope most are not like that.

If the public didnt question authorities actions how fucked up do you think your profession would be. We’d be in a complete police state right now. If you were not held accountable for your actions then abuse of authority would be rampant. You can take that to the bank.[/quote]

You’re focussing on certain things that I have said, and ignoring other things that I have said. I never said it was wrong to question the actions of police. That is why they investigate incidents like this one. This is the last time I am going to say this…I DON’T THINK IT IS WRONG TO QUESTION THE ACTIONS OF POLICE. I DO THINK IT IS WRONG TO ACCUSE THEM OF MISCONDUCT BEFORE THE INVESTIGATION IS OVER. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. However, it seems to be the opposite for you.

To prove that you don’t read my entire posts, I would like to know why you think I am a police officer. I never said that I was. I did say that I wear a service uniform, but that could be military.

37

[quote]Professor X wrote:
JD430 wrote:
Re-read the other posts if you want. I explained to you how that drug raid may have happened, that they were probably wearing raid vests(which seems to be enough of a uniform for 99.999999% of drug raids) and they had no duty to knock on a crack house door to show ID, for tactical and legal reasons.
You didnt want to hear it.

I don’t mind analyzing police actions. I do it myself every single day of my life. However, you owe it to them to a. educate yourself a little on police work(legal issues, combat stress and so on) and b. don’t make any assumption based on reading one or two slanted articles when it will take a very involved investigation to get to the bottom of what happened.

I didn’t want to hear it? When people who are not involved end up dead, people start asking questions. You can’t state one hand that all evidence isn’t in yet…and then claim that no one should be asking why a 92 year old woman got killed and we should just trust the cops in every situation. I’m sorry, guy, but I’ve seen enough from cops to NOT trust them as a whole.

That doesn’t describe any “hatred” of cops because I have a frat brother who is one. It describes how I feel about an attitude that I see often…as if many get off on the power. That mindset is dangerous and I seriously doubt it is that rare in those who actually feel driven to become cops in the first place. Add personal human bias to the situation and you get people dying for the wrong reasons.[/quote]

Ultimately, you have had some kind of experiences with cops that lead you to make biased judgements against them. Obviously, I have had experiences with cops that lead me to probably make biased judgements in their favor. I can be honest about that. The most honorable, courageous men I have known have been behind a badge. With that said, I have also known a few very evil fuckers who hid behind a badge. They are a very rare exception in my experience, which frankly trumps yours simply because I have known and worked with hundreds of law enforcement personnel for many years.

The “getting off on power” mentality is not as prevalent as a lot of you guys would like to believe. We have them for sure, and the good cops know exactly who these guys are. However, the belief that there is a widespread mentality of power lust in police work is a misperception. Just because a cop may have barked at you or appears overly stern in a given situation can’t really tell you much about that person’s mentality, but that is the snap judgement people make. There should be some soul searching done on anyone’s part as to why they have such a negative reaction to authority.

Some cops come on strong for a lot of reasons. They are taught an authoritarian style in training so they can gain control of situations. Some of the cops that come on the strongest do it out of fear, because they know they can’t control a situation if it goes downhill because they are too soft for the job. This goes back to hiring people that should not be hired. Physically and mentally tough officers usually don’t have to come on too strong to let it be known who is in control. Those guys know when it is time to drop the hammer and when they can behave in a little bit more open-minded fashion.

I can’t change such a deeply held mistrust of the police, although I do my best in the people I deal with through my own conduct.

I’ll repeat it for emphasis one more time. Understanding police use of force situations can be very complex. Society
as we know it would disappear rather quickly without the police and as such, we owe it to them to be fair and well-informed when judging their actions.

38

So, they hit him with the car and then ram into a police van twice. Yep, that constitutes a lethal force encounter. Without being there you really can’t judge the guys involved as you don’t know all the circumstances. Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy.

Plain clothes operations are common and have been in the NYPD for a long time. How else are they to observe first hand what goes on in the club?

The number of rounds fired doesn’t really matter. Handguns are not the all powerfull weapons that you see in the movies, especially when having to penetrate an automobile. Once they made the decision to fire their weapons they needed to fire however many rounds it took to achieve the desired outcome. 50 or 5 makes no difference.

39

[quote]brand wrote:
So, they hit him with the car and then ram into a police van twice. Yep, that constitutes a lethal force encounter. Without being there you really can’t judge the guys involved as you don’t know all the circumstances. Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy.

Plain clothes operations are common and have been in the NYPD for a long time. How else are they to observe first hand what goes on in the club?

The number of rounds fired doesn’t really matter. Handguns are not the all powerfull weapons that you see in the movies, especially when having to penetrate an automobile. Once they made the decision to fire their weapons they needed to fire however many rounds it took to achieve the desired outcome. 50 or 5 makes no difference. [/quote]

What is the desired outcome on someone who isn’t firing back?

40

you guys really have no idea what that area of NYC is like. it is an absolute hot bed of coke and heroin dealers and also a 10 minute ride from my house.
it is a terrible thing that happened and sure, criticize away, it’s your god given right.

but also keep in mind these are men who basically patrol one of the worst areas of the city, who are constantly involved in highly intense situations and are already no matter what, the enemy to some people in this neighborhood.