[quote]Karado wrote:
So lemme get this straight…this is all a JOKE to them?
[/quote]
No, they’re deadly serious. However, Obama is a joke to them. Our appeasement is a joke and is encouraging them.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Karado wrote:
So lemme get this straight…this is all a JOKE to them?
[/quote]
No, they’re deadly serious. However, Obama is a joke to them. Our appeasement is a joke and is encouraging them.[/quote]
What is it with WE and OUR? Did you recently move to America?
[quote]smh23 wrote:
I learned about as much about WWII as I did anything else in high school.[/quote]
Would you agree that those who pushed the Neurtrality Acts, advocated cutting ties with Britain and those who opposed Lend-Lease were Nazi sympathisers? i.e. Nye Committee, America First Committee etc. Or was it just cool to conflate Nazi collaboration with having Nazi sympathies?
[quote]maverick88 wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Karado wrote:
So lemme get this straight…this is all a JOKE to them?
[/quote]
No, they’re deadly serious. However, Obama is a joke to them. Our appeasement is a joke and is encouraging them.[/quote]
What is it with WE and OUR? Did you recently move to America? [/quote]
We = free world. Obama = leader of the free world.
[quote]CornSprint wrote:
I’m not going to go into extreme detail, but the term “jihad” is actually translated to mean three different things at once through one term: struggle.
On one level, the term refers to a personal battle toward self-improvement and intellectual effort. On an entirely different level, it refers to working to practice Islam in the face of persecution, which is where the violent connotation we now associate it with comes from. Groups have taken it up for this later reason as a justification of war.
Personally, because of the first, more prevalently practiced definition of jihad, I find this sign to be intolerant. Do I believe we should support Israel? Yes-it is valuable to have an ally in a region where we have few. However, I don’t see supporting Israel as a means to ending jihad. War and aggression will not quell the anger towards the US. That I can guarantee.[/quote]
No, the aggressive kill and slay definition is integral to the Quran and the Hadith. It is commanded multiple times to kill people that doesn’t include self defense. The re-purposing of that word has actually gone in the other direction, where apologists are trying to redefine it to remove the aggressive violent part.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
I learned about as much about WWII as I did anything else in high school.[/quote]
Would you agree that those who pushed the Neurtrality Acts, advocated cutting ties with Britain and those who opposed Lend-Lease were Nazi sympathisers? i.e. Nye Committee, America First Committee etc. Or was it just cool to conflate Nazi collaboration with having Nazi sympathies?[/quote]
Not by definition. Some were isolationists, pacifists, etc. I doubt Nye himself was a Nazi sympathizer in any way.
Anyway, are you trying to make some kind of parallel here?
[quote]smh23 wrote:
Not by definition. Some were isolationists, pacifists, etc. I doubt Nye himself was a Nazi sympathizer in any way.
[/quote]
He most definitely was, as was Charles Lindbergh and the rest of them.
[quote]
Anyway, are you trying to make some kind of parallel here?[/quote]
Absolutely. The parallels are startling. The isolationist movement was riddled with Nazi sympathisers.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
Not by definition. Some were isolationists, pacifists, etc. I doubt Nye himself was a Nazi sympathizer in any way.
[/quote]
He most definitely was, as was Charles Lindbergh and the rest of them.
[quote]
Anyway, are you trying to make some kind of parallel here?[/quote]
Absolutely. The parallels are startling. The isolationist movement was riddled with Nazi sympathisers.[/quote]
Let’s see some proof that Nye was a Nazi sympathizer. And proof is not “he was against the war.” He was, first and foremost, extremely distrustful of government (doesn’t sound like he’d have been into the fatherland). He thought that arms dealers had led us into WWI because we had an economic interest in Britain’s survival. And he voted for war after Pearl Harbor. If you do have proof–reputable proof, not something off a fringe conspiracy blog–I will gladly yield.
As for any parallel with US-Israeli relations: bullshit. Under discussion here is the opportunistic and idiotic tendency to link anything less than unwavering support for Israel with antisemitism. Unless you believe Israel can do no wrong, you must hate Jews, right? No.
We’re talking about a nation state here, and if someone can find NOTHING to criticize about a nation state in the contemporary world–any nation state, especially one engaged in frequent conflict, the US included–then he is either stupid or dishonest.
The funny thing is that I tend to support Israel. But I’m not obtuse enough to believe that if that support is anything less than unconditional, I must be an anti-Semite.
You seem like a relative smart guy but I am often shocked at the positions you take. I can only put it down to your lack of knowledge. It is evident from your post that you know virtually nothing about the isolationist movement as no serious historian would profer your position. I would suggest that you don’t take strong positions on something you’ve only just googled.
Disingenuous. Maybe if you’d said ‘evidence’ rather than proof.
It ‘doesn’t sound like he’d have been into the fatherland’ because he seemed distrustful of the U.S. government?
Yes, I know. Clearly you don’t know that ‘Merchants of Death’ and ‘War is a Racket’ were and are regarded as conspiracy theories with no basis in fact. The Nye Committee was unable to profer any evidence whatsoever. It was Nazi propaganda and Nye and Lindbergh were its main proponents. It was a common theme of Nazi sympathisers the world over from Oswald Mosley to Vidkun Quisling.
Everyone from Dr. Seuss(see attached picture) to FDR knew Nye was a Nazi sympathiser.
Roosevelt said to Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau in May 1940, “if I should die tomorrow, I want you to know this, I am absolutely convinced Lindbergh is a Nazi.”
Again, you clearly know nothing about this. Nye at first denied that Japan had attacked and then only voted when it became clear that he would be the only Senator in Congress opposing it and it would surely ruin his career(it already had anyway.)
Again I find this disingenuous. Firstly, you are suggesting that I have or would profer ‘fringe conspiracy blog[s]’ as evidence. Why would you suggest that?
Secondly, you will find much about Nye on ‘fringe conspiracy’ sites. He is a hero of the Ron Paul crowd. Also, aren’t you supposed to be a journalist? What’s this nonsense about ‘proof’ in relation to Nye’s Nazi sympathies? You don’t ‘prove’ something like that. You look at his behaviour, what he said, his actions, the context - all things that you clearly have not done. Which begs the question, why would take this position and why would you be defending Nye at all?
Your knowledge of WWII history in relation to US isolationism is non-existent. As I told you, the parallels are startling.
Why are you attributing something to me that I have never said/implied? Israel is like every other western country in that it is full of leftifts and appeasers. I don’t offer any ‘unwavering’ support for Israel. Quite the contrary. And I have never suggested that you nor anyone else who posts here is ‘anti-Semitic.’
Gerald Nye was a notorious anti-Semite however:
'The charge of Jewish warmongering had often focused on Hollywood. Shortly before Pearl Harbor, Senator Gerald Nye of North Dakota held hearings on the subject, summoning for interrogation those with “Jewish-sounding” names. ’ - The Holocaust in American Life, Peter Novick
‘Joining his colleagues Burton Wheeler and Champ Clark in condemning Jewish influence in Hollywood, Senator Gerald Nye of North Dakota zeroed in on the “Yiddish controllers” of American theater and movies.’ The Holocause Chronicle
‘An attempt by Social Justice, X-Ray and other Jew-baiting publications to make a comeback after the war was seen today in a bill introduced by Senator Gerald P. Nye…’ - Jewish Telegraph Agency 29 July 1942
‘Nye argued that foreign-born Jews had colored entertainment with their “inborn hatreds” and “vengeful spirits.” Gerald Nye charged that Jews and other interventionists were trying to destroy the movement by smearing it as anti-Semitic.’ Beyond Left and Right David Horowitz
Sounds like a parallel to me…
“…the Jewish people are a large factor in our movement toward war.” Gerald Nye
‘The most damaging accusation was that the investigation was motivated by anti-Semitism, an issue that surfaced immediately after Nye read a list of the names of those who controlled the film industry in his St. Louis radio address. Some who listened to the address noted that everyone on the list seemed to be Jewish and claimed that Nye had deliberately over-pronounced their names in order to stress their ethnic identities…The furor over Nye’s radio address had barely begun to cool when famed aviator Charles Lindbergh made a speech that stoked the coals once more. Speaking on 15 September before an America First meeting in Des Moines, he accused Jews of plotting with the British and the Roosevelt administration to draw the United States into the European war. “Their greatest danger to this country” he said of the Jews, “lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio, and our Government.”’
So the Jews control the media and are dragging us into war? Sounds like another parallel to me.
Again, why are you attributing something to me that I have never said nor implied? You’re starting to piss me off. And I don’t like having my time wasted with something so fatuous.
Israel is full of appeasers and leftists. You are the one who is dishonest. You know nothing about WWII isolationism yet you pretend you do.
Again? Seriously, why are you saying this? Based on what?
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
You seem like a relative smart guy but I am often shocked at the positions you take. I can only put it down to your lack of knowledge. It is evident from your post that you know virtually nothing about the isolationist movement as no serious historian would profer your position. I would suggest that you don’t take strong positions on something you’ve only just googled.
Disingenuous. Maybe if you’d said ‘evidence’ rather than proof.
It ‘doesn’t sound like he’d have been into the fatherland’ because he seemed distrustful of the U.S. government?
Yes, I know. Clearly you don’t know that ‘Merchants of Death’ and ‘War is a Racket’ were and are regarded as conspiracy theories with no basis in fact. The Nye Committee was unable to profer any evidence whatsoever. It was Nazi propaganda and Nye and Lindbergh were its main proponents. It was a common theme of Nazi sympathisers the world over from Oswald Mosley to Vidkun Quisling.
Everyone from Dr. Seuss(see attached picture) to FDR knew Nye was a Nazi sympathiser.
Roosevelt said to Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau in May 1940, “if I should die tomorrow, I want you to know this, I am absolutely convinced Lindbergh is a Nazi.”
Again, you clearly know nothing about this. Nye at first denied that Japan had attacked and then only voted when it became clear that he would be the only Senator in Congress opposing it and it would surely ruin his career(it already had anyway.)
Again I find this disingenuous. Firstly, you are suggesting that I have or would profer ‘fringe conspiracy blog[s]’ as evidence. Why would you suggest that?
Secondly, you will find much about Nye on ‘fringe conspiracy’ sites. He is a hero of the Ron Paul crowd. Also, aren’t you supposed to be a journalist? What’s this nonsense about ‘proof’ in relation to Nye’s Nazi sympathies? You don’t ‘prove’ something like that. You look at his behaviour, what he said, his actions, the context - all things that you clearly have not done. Which begs the question, why would take this position and why would you be defending Nye at all?
Your knowledge of WWII history in relation to US isolationism is non-existent. As I told you, the parallels are startling.
Why are you attributing something to me that I have never said/implied? Israel is like every other western country in that it is full of leftifts and appeasers. I don’t offer any ‘unwavering’ support for Israel. Quite the contrary. And I have never suggested that you nor anyone else who posts here is ‘anti-Semitic.’
Gerald Nye was a notorious anti-Semite however:
'The charge of Jewish warmongering had often focused on Hollywood. Shortly before Pearl Harbor, Senator Gerald Nye of North Dakota held hearings on the subject, summoning for interrogation those with “Jewish-sounding” names. ’ - The Holocaust in American Life, Peter Novick
‘Joining his colleagues Burton Wheeler and Champ Clark in condemning Jewish influence in Hollywood, Senator Gerald Nye of North Dakota zeroed in on the “Yiddish controllers” of American theater and movies.’ The Holocause Chronicle
‘An attempt by Social Justice, X-Ray and other Jew-baiting publications to make a comeback after the war was seen today in a bill introduced by Senator Gerald P. Nye…’ - Jewish Telegraph Agency 29 July 1942
‘Nye argued that foreign-born Jews had colored entertainment with their “inborn hatreds” and “vengeful spirits.” Gerald Nye charged that Jews and other interventionists were trying to destroy the movement by smearing it as anti-Semitic.’ Beyond Left and Right David Horowitz
Sounds like a parallel to me…
“…the Jewish people are a large factor in our movement toward war.” Gerald Nye
‘The most damaging accusation was that the investigation was motivated by anti-Semitism, an issue that surfaced immediately after Nye read a list of the names of those who controlled the film industry in his St. Louis radio address. Some who listened to the address noted that everyone on the list seemed to be Jewish and claimed that Nye had deliberately over-pronounced their names in order to stress their ethnic identities…The furor over Nye’s radio address had barely begun to cool when famed aviator Charles Lindbergh made a speech that stoked the coals once more. Speaking on 15 September before an America First meeting in Des Moines, he accused Jews of plotting with the British and the Roosevelt administration to draw the United States into the European war. “Their greatest danger to this country” he said of the Jews, “lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio, and our Government.”’
So the Jews control the media and are dragging us into war? Sounds like another parallel to me.
Again, why are you attributing something to me that I have never said nor implied? You’re starting to piss me off. And I don’t like having my time wasted with something so fatuous.
Israel is full of appeasers and leftists. You are the one who is dishonest. You know nothing about WWII isolationism yet you pretend you do.
Again? Seriously, why are you saying this? Based on what?[/quote]
It seemed to me that you were trying to set up some kind of analogy roughly resembling the following: Isolationists were to Naziism as critics of Israel are to modern anti-Semitism. Given that you argue–convincingly–that isolationists had Nazi sympathies, and also given the context of Raj’s comment about conflation of criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, I figured that’s what you were getting at. If it wasn’t–then nevermind the whole thing.
It seems that you were rather simply trying to show me that you know a lot about this particular historical topic. Or at least that you can copy and paste a lot about it.
Regarding Nye: first, I never contested anything about Lindbergh. Rabid anti-semite is the first thing that comes to mind at the mention of his name. And I never “defended” Nye or tried to mount an argument in his defense. I never “pretended” to know anything more than I actually do about isolationism. My statement–that if you had proof (evidence is a better word), I would yield–was meant sincerely, as I’ve read some about the isolationists and lend-lease but have never studied it in depth (as you obviously have). For the record, you have gone most of the way to convincing me (though Nye’s radical agrarianism is still a convincing explanation for his opposition to involvement in the war).
But that was really just an aside. Let me ask you a question: are you making some kind of claim, one way or another, re: the conflation of criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism? That was my original interest in this thread.
I didn’t even take it as far as critcism of Israel, I wrote a lack of support.
Just look at the accusation thrown Makavali’s way after a statement that wasn’t even a criticism.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I didn’t even take it as far as critcism of Israel, I wrote a lack of support.
Just look at the accusation thrown Makavali’s way after a statement that wasn’t even a criticism.
[/quote]
That’s exactly the kind of bullshit that I was referring to. “When did it become cool for liberals to hate Jews” in response to his reasonable and uncontroversial comment.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
Let me ask you a question: are you making some kind of claim, one way or another, re: the conflation of criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism? That was my original interest in this thread.[/quote]
Not so much criticism as unwarranted critism and hostility. It really comes down to context. Also, I don’t even necessarily equate hostility to Israel with anti-Semitism. The hard-left despise America and fabricate/distort historical events to portray America in the worst possible light, but that doesn’t necessarily equate to some kind of racism. But then that’s really just semantics. What I will say is that the left is riddled with people who are extremely hostile to the state of Israel. Whether or not they happen to have some racial animosity to Jewish people is really neither here nor there. The effect is the same. You have to ask yourself why they hold such views.
‘If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then what is it?’
And I read ruffian’s comment as a throw away line. It certainly has an element of truth. Those who would argue that there are not anti-Semites amongst Israel’s detractors on the left would have to be fooling themselves or trying to fool others.
I don’t support Israel after reading about the Lavon Affair and their attack on the USS Liberty.
Why should the west trust Israel?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I don’t support Israel after reading about the Lavon Affair and their attack on the USS Liberty.
Why should the west trust Israel?[/quote]
That’s because you’re either a liar or an idiot. The Lavon Affair was nearly 60 years ago and involved planting small, matchbox sized incendiary devices in empty buildings in the middle of the night by a few rogue operatives. And the attack on the USS Liberty was a friendly fire incident that has been thoroughly investigated numerous times and the Israelis cleared of any wrong doing whatsoever.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I don’t support Israel after reading about the Lavon Affair and their attack on the USS Liberty.
Why should the west trust Israel?[/quote]
That’s because you’re either a liar or an idiot. The Lavon Affair was nearly 60 years ago and involved planting small, matchbox sized incendiary devices in empty buildings in the middle of the night by a few rogue operatives. And the attack on the USS Liberty was a friendly fire incident that has been thoroughly investigated numerous times and the Israelis cleared of any wrong doing whatsoever.[/quote]
Oh it was 60 years ago? I guess then it was okay right? Very odd how these “rogue” operatives were honored by Mosh Katzav in 2005.
As for the USS liberty
Dean Rusk, U.S. Secretary of State at the time of the incident, wrote:
I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn’t believe them then, and I don’t believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous.
"After ten official US investigations (including five congressional investigations), there was never any evidence that the attack was made with knowledge that the target was a US ship. There is substantial evidence the attack was a tragic mistake caused by blunders of both the US and Israel. Eight US presidents, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush (41), Clinton, and Bush (43), have each accepted the conclusion that the attack was a tragic case of mistaken identity.
Nevertheless, conspiracy theorists continue to claim the Israelis knowingly attacked a US ship. By some estimates, there are more conspiracy theories about the Liberty incident than about the assassination of John F. Kennedy."
A liar or an idiot?
So I see a plan to blow up American movie theatres is so easily forgivable because it was 60 years ago? Okay
Odd how they “accidentally” attacked a ship they monitored for days, a huge american flag was flying from the ship and even intercepted american transmissions.
"The Israel Air Force warplanes and Israel Navy warships that attacked the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967, at the height of the Six-Day War, were aware that the vessel was an American spy ship, according to new testimony published Thursday in the Chicago Tribune.
The report stated that the U.S. National Security Agency - to which the intelligence gathering ship belonged - was able to intercept IAF communications according to which, at some stage, the pilots identified the ship as American but were nonetheless instructed to push ahead with the attack."