ZEB,
then you should cheer them!
Makkun
Some of your āmainstreamā protestors were carried off the convention floor the other night. Some of them must have slid under the door to get inā¦
Oh, and one more thing: Why does it seem like I am always debating guys from other countries, and college students?
No slam against either, but I had to note it.
As of this hour it seems that a total of 1,800 āmainstreamā Americans were arrested at the convention.
Thatās because more than ever half of mainstream Americans are pissed off with the direction America is taking. The stakes for America and the world are very highā¦people feel very passionately about what is happening in America and in Iraq. People arenāt going to sit down and shut up just because Bush and Cheneyās goons want them to. I agree though, that peaceful protest is the only acceptable way to go, and liberals lost the moral high ground when they indulge in dubious tactics. But you can see where they are coming from, feeling powerless to stop Bush sending young Americans to pointlessly die in the pursuit of killing Iraqis so that companies like Halliburton can make untold millions.
deanosumo:
You have so many errors in your thinking I just donāt have the time, or inclination to straighten them out.
Best To You,
Zeb
Errors? So young Americans arenāt dying? So Iraqi children and women arenāt dying? So Halliburton isnāt cleaning up?
Correct the errors in my thinking. I am open minded and will listen, unlike many on these boards. I actually was for toppling Saddam originally. But I was lied to. I was deceived. And the cost hasnāt been worth it. It hasnāt.
the statments you make individually might stand upā¦to link them all together is ludicris
thanks,
me
Yes, how āludicrisā (sic) to link the invasion with the death of American soldiers and Iraqis.
Dean, if we werent in iraq right now young americans would still be dying and young iraquis would be too so what was your point again?
[quote]deanosumo wrote:
Errors? So young Americans arenāt dying? So Iraqi children and women arenāt dying? So Halliburton isnāt cleaning up?
Correct the errors in my thinking. I am open minded and will listen, unlike many on these boards. I actually was for toppling Saddam originally. But I was lied to. I was deceived. And the cost hasnāt been worth it. It hasnāt.
[/quote]
Iām going to hate myself for attempting to spread some truth to you, as I am confident that it will not be recieved properly:
Yes, some Americans have died in Iraq (not nearly as many as in other wars). People die in wars, itās an unfortunate circumstance. The question that you have to ask yourself is this: Is it worth it? Making Iraq a free democratic nation could mean a great deal to the US and the world. While there is a sacrifice involved many think it is worth it.
There was much sacrifice during World War two however many people just like you did not want anyone to die. Fortunately, no one listend to them! And now Germany and Japan are free nations. The US (and their allies) did this. And people died in the process!
Afghanastan and Iraq will both be free nations because of the US. Take a look at the world map and you will see the incredible benefit that two democratic nations in this part of the world will have on surrounding nations. No not by next Wednesday, these things take time. However, the seeds have been planted! The visionary is President Bush and those who support his efforts. Itās always easier to stand on the sidelines and throw stones. āWonāt workā the impatient people say. āPull outā the people with no vision complain.
As far as the charge that Haliburton is somehow illegally gaining I ask for only one thing: Proof! If there was even one shred of evidence that this were the case the democratic party would be all over it with facts, figures, times, dates etc. However, it is fun to say isnāt it? And after all this is a forum on the internet and you donāt need proof. All you have to do is sling rumorsā¦I get it.
Stop listening to hearsay! Get your facts straight! Itās always easier to believe the worst in people. This is one reason the swift boat group is having such a negative impact on the Kerry campaign. However, it is much more difficult to rise above the mud and say to yourself āthe guy won three purple heartsā I know they donāt just hand them out like candy at a birthday party. I donāt like the swift boat adds and I donāt like the cheap shots that Dick Cheney has to take either. Get it?
Step back take a breath get all of your facts straight and then think again please.
Zeb, you draw some pretty erroneius conclusions yourself, and make some incorrect assumptions abouty me.
Just because I oppose the war in Iraq does not mean that I am the sort of unrealistic liberal who is against all wars. Yes, World War 2 was a necessary conflict. One of grandfathers served in the Navy and another was interred in forced labour camp in Holland. I also think Afghanistan was justified. There was a clear link between Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Afghanistan will eventually benefit as a whole.
You portray the war in Iraq as America bringing freedom to the Iraqi people. That could be a byproduct of itā¦but it was originally portrayed as a āneccesaryā action to remove the threat caused by Saddamās weapons of mass destruction. To protect America. We now know that we were deceived on this point.
The real reasons for the invasion of Iraq are
- Bush wanted to further ride the wave of popularity created by the invasion of Afghanistan, increasing his chances of re-election
- To finish the job his father didnāt, and avenge the attempt on his fatherās life (George W. said āHe (Saddam) tried to kill my daddyā)
- Strategic
- Financial.
You think he and his cabinet are really in it to liberate the Iraqi people and give them democracy? Thatās so naive. America generally supports democracy around the world but when it is in their best interest they are just as happy to support totalitarian regimes such as dicatorships, military junta and theocracies.
Well, no ranting or raving, but my point of view on why Iraq is a war which lacks justification.
[quote]deanosumo wrote:
The real reasons for the invasion of Iraq areā¦
3) Strategic
4) Financial.
[/quote]
Do you have a problem with either of those reasons? Or, for that matter, with the āby productā of Iraqi freedom?
deanosumo,
Let me guess, youāll show them!!!
Youāll vote for Kerry!!!
Excellent thinking!!!
What are WE THINKING? We could vote for Kerry?!?
What a powerful candidate!!!
What a platform!!!
Strong, proven leadership!!!
Look as his Senate record!!! Twenty years of supporting the people!!! Twenty years of consistent, principled leadership!!! Always supporting the military!!! Keeping us on the cutting edge of technology!!!
Kerry has a plan to keep us safe!!! He will defend us when we have been attacked!!! Heāll be far more sensitive to the international community (akaā¦France/Germany)!!!
He even has a plan to get us out of Iraq!!! Heāll pull our troops out starting six months after inauguration!!! What a bold move!!! What a well thought out approach!!! No one would be smart enough to lay low for six months and one day!!! Heās outwitted them already!!!
Not to mention the economy!!! Weāll fix everything by repealing George Bushās evil tax cuts!!! Tax the rich!!! Give to the poor!!! A modern day Robin Hood!!! If you are too successful, you should pay the piper!!! How dare you succeed!!! Punishment is the order of the day!!! Letās discourage individual initiative!!!
What a bold plan to reform our health care system!!! After the third frivilous lawsuit, a personal injury attorney is in danger of losing his license!!! My God, the foresight!!! The strength!!! The sheer audacity defies description!!! That will cut those premiums down to size!!!
Heāll drop the unemployment rate to zero by stopping outsourcing!!! Everyone (except his wifeās company) will have no chance to invest internationally!!! Draw us in!!! Isolationism always works wonders!!! Our workers are already trained far beyond anyone else!!! They deserve the highest wages and benefits automatically!!!
Thanks, dean, youāve opened my eyes to a whole new world!!!
Hereās the real kicker: Letās elect John Kerry because he isnāt the evil, devious, Halliburton-bought George W. Bush!!!
JeffR
Doogie, I have a problem with those reasons because they were not the ones President Bush stated. DoesāWeapons of Mass Destructionāring a bell? Lies.
Jeff, you do realise you use exclamation marks in every sentence? It sounds like you are having a blue fit, shouting to yourself in front of your monitorā¦ You could use the period or the question mark sometimes. You donāt rebut any of my points, but just attack Kerry, which is really irrelevant to my posts. You donāt sound very clever dude.
I wonāt be online for a couple of days probably guys so you can flame me without threat of my retribution for a while.
Peace if possible
Deanosumo
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Oh, and one more thing: Why does it seem like I am always debating guys from other countries, and college students?
No slam against either, but I had to note it.[/quote]
I dunno. Perhaps because we foreigners tend to read more international news sources than many Americans, often also in other languages aswell? And I must admit, whenever I was in the US, I felt a bit deprived of international news on TV.
For the college student bit - canāt tell you, my student days are some time ago. But again, I would argue that college students might be more interested in world affairs than many other people.
Does that make sense?
Makkun
makkun:
Yes, that indeed could be the reason. However, there is one thing that you cannot know! That is the feeling of pride that I have in my country.
Just like being friends with someone who loves their family. You can be around it, you can either like it, or not like it, but you can never know what it is like to be in that family as you are an outsider. That does not make you bad, or even wrong on many issues, it just makes you and outsider, one who is not directly connected to the events that occurred in the US.
Our country was attacked by terrorists. We know what itās like to lose 3000 of our fellow countrymen, you donāt! There lies the big difference between us! Not the fact that you read more international news than I do (maybe you donāt).
When terrorism is stopped and there is no more threat to my country, I will then be a lot more interested in what France, Germany and even England think. Until then, I admit, I do have strong opinions and I have a right to have them!
As for college students, I think that many of them (not all) are brainwashed by their liberal Professors. Throw in a lack of real world experience and naivete and there you have it. That does not make them bad or wrong on certain issues either. However, it does stop them from prohibit them from seeing the entire picture!
Finally, I believe that my President George W. Bush, reacted properly to the 9-11 threat. It seems that many form other countries, and some college students disagree.
These are simply my observations, no offense intended.
deanosumo:
Yes, you can see in 2004 how important world war two was. However, there were people just like you in 1941 who could not see it! Time has a way of proving those who take the proper steps correct.
Reasons 1, 2 and 4 are ridiculous and unprovable. If they had any shred of truth to them the democratic party would be using them in advertisements.
My final comment to you would be to not listen to rumor and innuendo. Like I said, my post to you was a waste of time,
Good Luck,
Zeb
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/28015.htm
NUTS TO THAT
By RYAN SAGER
September 3, 2004 ā
Hi, back again.
Zeb, please explain the connection between the tragic loss of the 3000 innocents in New York (and Washington), and the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
Itās perfectly justifiable to hit back. But youāve got to do it at the right people.