NYC Protestors and leftist anarchy groups

I suggest Jeb or anyone else that thinks we’re in Iraq to “liberate” Iraqi’s might want to investigate the group “Project for a New American Century”.

This IS for real folks and they are presently in control of our government. The quote at the bottom of this post is directly from their 93 pg report and you can download it right from their web site. They flat out say they want to dominate the world, including space and cyberspace…can you say “Mein Kampf”.

Before you vote for Bush I suggest you do some more research and see why some people are down right scared of this administration…Republicans and Democrats.


An obscure, ominous-sounding right-wing policy group called -Project for the New American Century, or PNAC - affiliated with Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rumsfeld’s top deputy Paul Wolfowitz and Bush’s brother Jeb - even urged then-President Clinton to invade Iraq back in January 1998.

Why does the Bush administration seem hell-bent on war in the Middle East when key world powers and U.S. allies - such as France, Germany, Russia and China - don’t support it right now? Or when most Americans say they don’t want war, either, as long as the United Nations won’t endorse one?

Why the rush, and why now, when Saddam seems weakened by a decade of economic sanctions?

The answers are complicated, but most arise from the concept - endorsed by many of the key players in the Bush administration - that America, as the world’s lone superpower, should be putting that power to use.

Ian Lustick, a University of Pennsylvania political science professor and Middle East expert, calls the Cheney-Rumsfeld group “a cabal” - a band of conservative ideologues whose grand notions of American unilateral military might are out of touch and dangerous.

“What happened was 9/11, which had nothing to do with Iraq but produced an enormous amount of political capital which allowed the government to do anything it wanted as long as they could relate it to national security and the Middle East,” Lustick said.

The neo-conservative ideas about Iraq began to come together around the time that PNAC was formed, in spring 1997. Although the group’s overriding goal was expanding the U.S. military and American influence around the globe, the group placed a strong early emphasis on Iraq.

In addition to Clinton, the group lobbied GOP leaders in Congress to push for Saddam’s removal - by force if necessary.

“We should establish and maintain a strong U.S. military presence in the region, and be prepared to use that force to protect our vital interests in the Gulf - and, if necessary, to help remove Saddam from power,” the group wrote to Rep. Newt Gingrich and Sen. Trent Lott in May 1998.

Many of the best-known supporters have ties to the oil industry - most notably Cheney, who at the time was CEO of Halliburton, which makes oil-field equipment and would likely profit from the need to rebuild Iraq’s infrastructure.

Both supporters and opponents of a war in Iraq agree on one thing: That the events of Sept. 11 were the trigger that finally put the theory in action.

–Philadelphia Daily News (Jan. 27, 2003)

“Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor.”
–“Rebuilding America’s Defenses” (PNAC report Sept 2000)

BTW, of the 18 signers of this report, 10 are in the Bush administration…

Are you implying that other countries have not suffered from terrorism? Admittedly, the collapse of the towers turned a tragic event into a huge disaster, but that doesn’t mean that other people can’t understand the feeling.

The US is just another country. Do us all a favor and realize that people are people all around the world.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Our country was attacked by terrorists. We know what it’s like to lose 3000 of our fellow countrymen, you don’t!

Are you implying that other countries have not suffered from terrorism? Admittedly, the collapse of the towers turned a tragic event into a huge disaster, but that doesn’t mean that other people can’t understand the feeling.

The US is just another country. Do us all a favor and realize that people are people all around the world.[/quote]

You are right, other people can understand the feeling of terrorism, but people aren’t people all around the world, and the left wing looneys are proof; they don’t measure up.

Why don’t you do us all a favor and realize that this was the first time that the US has been attacked on our mainland! Emotions are not supposed to play into the equation?

I know you live in Canada, but we are still neighbors and I would think you would have more empathy than you display.

Zeb,

I don?t think many of us non Americans could ever feel empathy for the plight of the US after terrible events of 9.11. That would take some imagination.

I suppose we?re going off topic a little but the post preceding this reminded me of a discussion about terrorism I had whilst in the US. As I say I?ve just remembered it again and it may be interesting to some, I?ll just throw it in.

I was in California just after 9-11 (I landed a week after), I was talking to a group of people who are still my friends some I already knew some I had only just met and they were very keen to gauge what the thinking in the UK was on this terrible event. I reiterated a lot of what I had heard on the news, media and from friends. I guess it had not even occurred to them that there may be any other thought than those of the plight of those in the US (and justifiably so for obvious reasons!) but amongst these views was one that I had heard a few times from people, more of a question really which was ?Will this stop the funding of groups engaged in acts of terrorism [albeit on a completely different level using different means etc] from within the US??

You should have seen the looks it got especially as there we a few people listening who had overheard the conversation. They were outraged, they could not believe that anyone could even think about that. It all started to get a little heated and I left. Some time later all of them (that I knew) came to me and apologised having realised the point. A couple even said they we grateful for the change of perspective.

It?s sad, I guess a lot of the people giving money to Noraid and leaving their change in the tip jars in bars in Boston could be considered hardworking Mr Average.

I don?t think we should be holding Mr and Mrs average in such high regard. In any county. IMHO we should be reserving some of the distain shown towards each other in the posts above for the large percentage of people who cannot be bothered to source unbiased info, form a balanced (but unfixed!), non dogmatic, opinion and go out and vote on the strength of it.

Then, on the other hand I?m sometimes thankful that Mr/Ms Average don?t bother to vote. Lord help us if they did.

Zeb, now this is a statement I can get behind. I know it has been a horrible blow because it evaporated the feeling of invincibility or untouchability that many people felt.

As an outsider, it is very easy to see how the stance of your entire nation has shifted. Over time, when people realize the end of the world isn’t about to occur, it will slowly shift back to a more appropriate stance.

The only thing I complain about is when the suffering and loss that occurs in other nations is considered unimportant because of where it happens or who it happens to.

When I complain about it, it isn’t a slam against anyone or the US. It is just a lament that people need to think more about the concerns of other nations or poeple as well.

I’m not a utopian by any means, but the time for hatred between nations, closed borders and military agression eventually needs to be in the past. Violence begets violence, so what is left?

vroom:

Yes I agree, there is a time for peace, just not now!

The time for peace will come when Al- Qaida is wiped out and Osma is brought to justice.

As far as the pain that other nations have felt from terrorism, I do feel badly about that. I am also sure that my fellow Americans respond emotionally to it as well.

However, it’s simply different when you read about someone else’s pain and then experience the same thing yourself.

I’m sure that you can see my point.

Zeb,

At the risk of venturing into politics again, that is all cool. However, if the focus is on Al-Queda, are we currently expending our efforts in the right place?

On a different tack, I’m starting to think that ideology needs to be removed from government on a global scale. Unfortunately, this is an ironic belief as it is also an ideology.

Maybe it is time to reinvent religion again. History has been rewritten before in the past, maybe it is time to do it again. It’s not an overnight solution, but information is pretty powerful, simply remove a little bit of it.

Anyhow, I’m rambling, just killing some time as there is nothing left to do but wait for the long weekend to end.

However, if there is someone working for “some other agency” out there that is looking for a clandestine longshot project, look me up. I’ve got ideas – and since I’m from another country you’ve got plausible deniability up the wazoo. :wink:

vroom:

I think that Sadam sponsored terrorism. I don’t think that you have that opinion. Hence, we will never agree on the Iraq war.

One need only look at the fanatics flooding into Iraq to see that Bush kept the war away from The US by taking it to both Afghanistan and Iraq.

I also think that proof of this is that there has been no terrorism on our shores since 9-11. You have to give some credit to President Bush for this.

He was only eight months into his first term (there will be a second) when terrorism struck. Do you think any of the blame for this should go to Bill Clinton? What response did he give when the UN, and the USS Cole were both attacked? None! Do you think that may have given the terrorists a bit of confidence?

Look at the dramatic difference betweent Clinton and Bush’s response. I can’t help but think President Bush is handling this correctly.

(By the way I certainly hope that Bill Clinton has a speedy recovery from his bypass operation. I may not agree with his politics, but I do have respect fro the man-that’s another post)

I don’t know. I’m not sure it is fair to look at Clinton’s actions with post 9/11 eyes. Everything changed on 9/11 and perhaps again after the Russian incident.

I’m very interested in seeing an ideological shift on behalf of the moderate muslim world. When terrorism is reviled “over there” then the winds of change will really be blowing.

I agree, and what better way to change minds than to show democracy in action!

[quote]ZEB wrote:
makkun:

Yes, that indeed could be the reason. However, there is one thing that you cannot know! That is the feeling of pride that I have in my country.

Just like being friends with someone who loves their family. You can be around it, you can either like it, or not like it, but you can never know what it is like to be in that family as you are an outsider. That does not make you bad, or even wrong on many issues, it just makes you and outsider, one who is not directly connected to the events that occurred in the US.

Our country was attacked by terrorists. We know what it’s like to lose 3000 of our fellow countrymen, you don’t! There lies the big difference between us! Not the fact that you read more international news than I do (maybe you don’t).

When terrorism is stopped and there is no more threat to my country, I will then be a lot more interested in what France, Germany and even England think. Until then, I admit, I do have strong opinions and I have a right to have them!

As for college students, I think that many of them (not all) are brainwashed by their liberal Professors. Throw in a lack of real world experience and naivete and there you have it. That does not make them bad or wrong on certain issues either. However, it does stop them from prohibit them from seeing the entire picture!

Finally, I believe that my President George W. Bush, reacted properly to the 9-11 threat. It seems that many form other countries, and some college students disagree.

These are simply my observations, no offense intended. [/quote]

Sorry for not answering earlier - I was a bit busy in the outside world. :wink:

There is no offense, where none is taken. :slight_smile:

As to the attack by terrorists: Yes, I know this was a harsh thing for the citizens of the USA. I have family in the States (old military btw), and I was there when the Oklahoma bombing happened. I have lived my childhood in Germany and the UK with very real terrorist threats (Rote Armee Fraktion and IRA), but off course, they never killed that many people in one go. And - I can say that for Germany at least: We were shocked and we felt with you on 9/11. And we followed the US’s conclusions towards Afghanistan (actually German troops are still doing their duty there). But later on, most Germans got alienated by US policy towards Iraq - what we considered a not connected conflict was suddenly presented to us as a clear and present danger. Until today, many of us fail to see a justification as to why the country was invaded. And Donald Rumsfeld’s comments on Germany did not exactly help - let me think, I never felt very proud of my home country (given its history and all), until your current administration started calling us names. This is where at least my national family pride kicked in - for decades we had been loyal allies, and now suddenly we were nothing but cowards, because we questioned the logic of your administrations’s actions. I may be able to understand the pride in your country after all - because I do have mine. I think we are on common ground here.

As to college students: Cannot really comment on that - not all professors are liberal leftists. There might be the occasional ivory tower mentality in academia, but in the end these are the people who do the actual research on various issues. Considering myself an academic, I must say it might be useful to spend some time thinking about their arguments. Plurality and diversity of thought are the foundations of an educated and free thinking society. At least in my book.

Makkun

makkun:

Never stated that all Professors are liberal. However, most are. As far as academia being a high and mighty place of thought, yea I suppose it is. However, there is a time for thought and a time for action! Remember this: Over analysis leads to paralysis!

This President takes action and he has saved our shores from further attack. For that he will be reelected inspite of what those abroad and college kids think of him.


RLTW

rangertab75

ZEB,

[quote]ZEB wrote:
makkun:

Never stated that all Professors are liberal. However, most are. As far as academia being a high and mighty place of thought, yea I suppose it is. However, there is a time for thought and a time for action! Remember this: Over analysis leads to paralysis![/quote]

That’s true. However, action should be well thought through - and here lies the crux, I guess: It is often very hard to decide when it is the right time to act, and when to sit back and think. Especially if you’re in the political arena where everybody’s expectations flood all over you.

Hm, I not so sure about that. Obviously I don’t agree with some of his decisions to act. As a foreigner, I respectfully hope he will not be reelected. But to decide that is off course up to you guys and gals over there. :wink:

Makkun

Makkun:

fair enough!