Here’s a link to a post with some amusing pictures:
http://rnc.redstate.org/story/2004/8/30/13421/7688
This is a post with a link to a video that is more disturbing:
[quote]ZEB said
In fact, I have not seen such a collection of poor behavior, manner and dress in one place in a long time.[/quote]
Gosh ZEB, I didn’t know you were such a priss! People were using harsh language? Golly! And imagine being seen in public without a sport coat and bow tie! How uncouth!!!
A half a million people were at Sunday’s march, according to anonymous police sources. Half a million! Look at the pic, that’s a six lane avenue and people are jammed in there. That crowd stretched for 45 to 50 blocks!!!
Here’s a letter to the editor, from someone who was at the rally:
“No chaos”
"I attended Sunday’s peace march. There were people from dozens of states. There were infants, babies, high school and college kids, young professionals, middle-aged people like me, elderly folks and even the “Ragin’ Grannies of Rochester, N.Y.”
There might have been some raucous protesters intent on creating chaos. But I was there from 10 a.m. until I left Central Park at 6 p.m. and all I saw were people intent on making a difference in the future of this country. The Bush administration can pretend we don’t exist, but the majority of this country disagrees with the extremist agenda of the president and his advisers. Many will vote for him despite, not because of, his policies because the Republicans have cleverly packaged the Bush agenda with security in the wake of terrorism.
I think that hundreds and thousands more protesters would have joined us yesterday, but the Bloomberg administration made a huge deal of exaggerating the possibility of arrests and violence. I have not felt so positive about my country in many years as I did Sunday."
Vicki Alspector
Lynbrook
http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/letters/
HaHa, so-called T-Men are freaking out because of the “Ragin’ Grannies of Rochester, N.Y.”
The cop got hurt on his own, without any help. It happened when protestors unfurled the banner that said:
“BUSH ===>
<===== TRUTH”
Protestors rapelled (sp?) down the front of a hotel to hang the banner. A stupid beat cop was up on the roof, and he stepped through a skylight. He got hurt because he was a dumbass, trying to make an arrest he was not trained to make. Protestors even begged the guy to call in tactical cops, because a regular cop doesn’t have the training to handle the situation, and the dummy wouldn’t listen!
Then DOH!!! He stepped through a skylight.
80 percent of New Yorkers don’t want the Convention here!!! The only reason the RNC brought the convention here is to exploit the memory of 9-11!!! And the convention will cost the city 300 million dollars, and NYC is already broke!!! So broke that the city can’t afford to pay cops and firefighters a cost-of-living raise.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I decided to gather up my wife and children and watch an hour or so of CPAN’s coverage of the proterstors in NYC.
Here are my own personal observations:
1 More females than males.[/quote]
Yup, them women folk should be in the kitchen.
[quote]
2.Many Gays, In fact two fairly chubby men began kissing in front of the CPAN camara. Not what you would call a pretty sight.[/quote]
Because sexual preference means political views are not to be taken into account?
Such rudeness, won’t somebody please think of the children!
[quote]
4. An incredible amount of hateful signs. Some comparing President Bush to Adolf Hitler. Others calling Bush a murderer. Gee…is that hateful?[/quote]
Ok, he’s not Hitler, but the US government was quite taken with the Fascists back in the 1930s. And Bush as a murderer, well maybe we could ask the families of the ‘collateral damage’ in Iraq.
Well I personally want real news rather than propaganda and ratings-based media. Fox News is about as close to a news organisation as the fella drunkenly pissing on a lampost outside my apartment right now.
[quote]
6. One interview with a protestor who was so filled with hate he had a difficult time finishing a sentence. This was a good thing.[/quote]
Maybe he was wanted to get back to chanting.
[quote]
Overall I would say that my first impression about mainstream America not protesting in NYC this week is dead on! I reiterate: the radical left is out in full force in NYC spreading hate![/quote]
What is mainstream America again? Why not define it… please I’d love to know. Is it the students at the thousands of collages accross the country, or the homeless people, or the Latinos or Asians? Is it the guy pumping gas, or people who run this website? Maybe its the white guys in the suburbs with SUVs. Mainstream America, what a concept, its laughable.
[quote]
In fact, I have not seen such a collection of poor behavior, manner and dress in one place in a long time. Anyone who may have been undecided as to which candidate to vote for need only take a good long look at the protestors in NYC and they will be voting for President George W. Bush![/quote]
So you’re going to right somebody off because of the way they dress? And their manner is not to your liking? Did they use the soup spoon for dessert again? I hate it when that happens! And obviously all Kerry supporters are stinking liberal hippies. Just like all Bush supporters are backward, money grabbing rednecks. Not that I want to cast aspersion.
[quote]
With that stated, I am very happy to be living in a country where even such hateful people have an opportunity to express themselves.[/quote]
Hateful of hated?
Hey John,
Isn’t there a rugby game for you to not participate in somewhere?
Isn’t there some weights for you to make excuses not to lift?
Stop with the 1930’s comments, man. You don’t know your own history. You say we favored the facists.
Well, I remember appeasement. Now who let the Rhineland, Austria, and the Czechs fall without firing a shot? Remember Munich?
I’ll bet Poland thanks you for declaring war without offering substantitive help. If I was a Hollander or a Norweigan, I’d be pissed that everything was quiet during the 1939-1940 “phoney war.”
Remember the post where you called us “imperialists.” It’s not likely I’m going to allow you to make ridiculous accusations without slapping you around.
I know my history. I know your history. You appear to know neither.
Have an educational evening,
JeffR
I hope we have an incident like that at Kent State where the protesters get out of hand, step over the line and the NYPD has to open a can of whoop-ass all over them. It would really do my heart some good.
The leftist derelicts out on the street need to realize that even though they have the right to protest, your actions will have consequences.
I’ll bet you’ll see on the news some neo-Commie, with nappy dreads that look more like cat turds, bleeding down his face with the victim-like expression, “why are they doing this to me!?” Then he screams that his rights are being violated, while we later find out that he assaulted the police or some innocent victim.
Spare me your bleeding heart concerns that an event like this would be tragic and sad, because I could give a fuck.
Scrum,
I don’t think anybody is going to defend those type of people. I think the mistake is assuming these dregs of society are representative of anything.
However, when some mother and child are peacefully protesting, or hundreds of thousands of people are simply out to have their message heard, it is a good thing.
I’d imagine most of the protesters wish there was a way to keep the hooligans out of their protests also. Any ideas on how to do that?
So can someone tell me what’s going on in that video? Who’s hassling who, and why?
Assuming there are what seem to be referred to as ‘normal’ people there (c’mon, out of at least 1/2 a million you’ve gotta give me a couple! 
), what worries me the most I guess is that they would feel so disenfranchised (maybe the wrong word…) that they do become filled with anger and spill out onto the streets. Maybe this impotent anger of their’s spills over into some confrontations, not an excuse but understanding is important I think. I guess I just think that if there’s a argument going on, as long as everyone get’s listened to then (hopefully) people will sit back, compromise, agree to disagree, whatever, but somehow leave the table happy that they were able to express themselves and be heard. I don’t care who’s across the table from me in a political argument, in fact I love having them there, because you know the proper response is always buried somewhere in the middle. That’s one reason I really like that we have multiple parties up here, b/c it gives just about everyone a true political voice, be it small or large. I really dislike looking down south and seeing you guys get so polarized in your views, not b/c you are, but b/c the masses (i.e. not our discerning posters) flock to the party flags and all of sudden there’s only two choices on how to resolve a problem. There was a neat article in Harper’s magazine a couple weeks back about building a new progressive party in the U.S. and it was pretty exciting. I hope something like that happens soon, so I can see the multidimensional debates that go on in these postings reflected on the national stage. Try to remember to love that fucking dumb ass democrat/republican across the table from you, because you guys both have the same goal: trying to make your country the best it can be.
Vroom,
You can’t keep people like that out, at least not without violating civil liberties.
The best you could hope for is to have the police demonstrate what will be and won’t be tolerated.
Why is it that the moderate-left, who share very little with these dregs of society, welcome them into their fold while demonstrating? These anarchists and socialists would love nothing more than to destroy America and capitalism, regardless of where you lean. But their hatred for the Bush administration unites them, that is, until their beloved Starbucks is burned to the ground.
Time will tell if this will come back to hurt the left.
Heh, you just said that they can’t be kept out… maybe they are not so welcome? Perhaps there is nobody to blame but the dregs themselves.
JohnGullick:
My post was merely to make my original point: Main stream America was not represented by the crowd of misfits marching in NYC. And I am correct!
That begs the question: what is mainstream America?
Believe it or not John Mainstream America does not march through the streets carrying hateful signs and carrying on like someone who has been raised in a barn by animals! If you think that is mainstream America you have a great deal to learn about this country.
Mainstream America, whether they vote for Bush or Kerry rises each day to go to work and put food on the table for their family.
They also spend more time thinking about how they can make life better for their children than they had it! They also know that marching in the streets (at least the way that group did it) is foolish and counter productive.
They may speak out now and then, but they don’t do it by giving the finger to the CSPAN camara, or holding a sign comparing the President of the USA to Hitler. No John they are not mainstream Americans, as much as you would like them to be.
Republican or democrat, it’s all about values John! Maybe you have them, maybe you don’t. However, the people that I saw marhcing in the street were not mainstream Americans that’s for sure.
They are fringe elements of a party that needs to vocally reject them! And as I have previously stated, that group if given enough air time will indeed cost John Kerry many, many votes.
Final note: My father who is a life long democrat simply watched and shook his head when he saw the parade of freaks march in NYC. That’s one mainstream democrat who was turned off. How many others are out there?
I think all these protests are interesting. Seemingly a lot of people have a lot of free time on their hands, and some pocket money for travel expenses.
At any rate, has anyone noted that the size of these protests are significantly smaller than crowds for World Series champion parades, or Super Bowl champion parades? I know the protest makkun referenced above was significantly smaller - by a factor of 10 I believe - than the crowd that came out to celebrate the rugby world championships.
Kudos to some of the protesters for caring enough about their positions to come and make themselves heard. Jeers to the ones who are violent, and to the ones who are just out to be involved in “protest culture.”
Interesting thoughts on the protests from liberal, anti-Bush blogger Matthew Yglesias, who is at the convention in NYC:
http://yglesias.typepad.com/matthew/2004/08/more_protest_th.html
More Protest Thoughts
Covering something like a large politcal protest well is really, really hard. I checked yesterday’s happenings out for a while, then disengaged and tried to walk elsewhere, and ran into a colleague. I told him I was struck by how few normal-looking average New Yorkers were at the event. Everyday regular folks in this town hate the president, and yet no one seems to have shown up except for the out-of-town freakshow types. The colleague had the precise reverse impression. The truth, it turned out, was that we were both stuck in different bits of the protest mass and, naturally enough, similar people tend to lump together. After I moved on a bit I saw a lot of nice-looking family people. And of course there’s a tendency to equate politics with aesthetics and just assume the nice-looking family people have moderate views while the folks with the green hair have crazy ones, but it isn’t the case. One blue haired guy turned out to be an IR major somewhere who painted a nuanced portrait of where Bush has gone awry. One paunchy looking man had dressed his very young son in a “Lick Bush” shirt and explained to me that “if we just stopped using all this oil, then we wouldn’t have a problem with terrorism” which, even if true, is pretty clearly neither here nor there from the point-of-view of policy formation.
At root the issue is that large contemporary protests have become these carnival-like escapades. It is accepted – and, indeed, encouraged – for as many people as possible to show up, whether or not they agree with the United For Peace and Justice platform, know what the UFPJ platform is, or even know what UFPJ is. As a result, it’s hard to know what protest attendance signifies. When thousands of people showed up for Martin Luther King, Jr.'s March on Washington we understood that to mean that all those people were supporters of the Civil Rights Act demanding congressional action. At the UFPJ event, by contrast, you had people with all manner of views on Iraq policy a lot of people whose problems with the Bush administration really have nothing to do with foreign affairs, and my favorite fringe group of all time, the Spartacist Youth League complaining that the US needs to stop interfering with North Korea’s right to a nuclear bomb. Most of the people there seemed to be impassioned Kerry supporters, but the best-organized elements were Nader’s people. Obviously the message of a pro-Kerry anti-Bush protestor and that of a pro-Nader anti-Bush protestor are bound to be rather different.
So I don’t really have a “point” to make here, just those thoughts. But there’s a good analogy to the protest – each and every person there had something to say, but the protest as such didn’t have much of a message, so it’s hard to know what to say about it. That’s not necessarily the worst thing in the world, I’ve been known to write rambling discursive things myself, but – like a discursive blog post – it seems to me that such activity is far more about personal self-expression than about efficacious political action. Which, again, is fine, we’re all human, we can’t be efficacious all the time. But we should be self-aware about what we’re doing. Emma Goldman famously said, “If I can’t dance I don’t want to be in your revolution,” thus expressing a sentiment that is as wrongheaded as it is widespread.
ZEB,
[quote]ZEB wrote:
JohnGullick:
My post was merely to make my original point: Main stream America was not represented by the crowd of misfits marching in NYC. And I am correct!
(…)
That begs the question: what is mainstream America?
(…)
Mainstream America, whether they vote for Bush or Kerry rises each day to go to work and put food on the table for their family.
They also spend more time thinking about how they can make life better for their children than they had it! They also know that marching in the streets (at least the way that group did it) is foolish and counter productive.[/quote]
What do you think these people do? They can’t be all unemployed, gays and singles. I agree that marching might seem foolish, but it is a protected right. Why is that right there? To protect the “mainstream” who often does not act.
And, isn’t the Rebuplican Convention also waving, singing, marching and booing their enemies, just inside a convention hall? I don’t really get the difference? Except that I don’t agree with one of them. And waving signs, singing and wearing stickers looks always dorky, whatever side you are on. ;-)[quote]
They may speak out now and then, but they don’t do it by giving the finger to the CSPAN camara, or holding a sign comparing the President of the USA to Hitler. No John they are not mainstream Americans, as much as you would like them to be.
Republican or democrat, it’s all about values John! Maybe you have them, maybe you don’t. However, the people that I saw marhcing in the street were not mainstream Americans that’s for sure.[/quote]
You see, this is the area where I have a problem - these people, how misguided you might think they are, have values. That’s why they are taking to the streets. They might not share yours, or even mine.[quote]
They are fringe elements of a party that needs to vocally reject them! And as I have previously stated, that group if given enough air time will indeed cost John Kerry many, many votes.
Final note: My father who is a life long democrat simply watched and shook his head when he saw the parade of freaks march in NYC. That’s one mainstream democrat who was turned off. How many others are out there?
[/quote]
I’ve seen that reaction before: In Germany we have very right wing party, the NPD. There was some time ago an attempt to ban them for being neo-nazis. They rallied at a city square near to where I lived. By coincidence, I popped by and saw the following. 30ish NPD supporters, surrounded by 50ish police(wo)men, surrounded by 30ish teenage demonstrators (very much of the unfashionable kind as described above). Everyone excercised their rights: NPD demonstrated against their possible ban, police protected them, the demonstrators booed and showed them red cards (not their communist party books, but rather a soccer analogy) and such. Some did get arrested, because they tried to get to the NPD guys. Not good, but hardly the end of western civilisation.
And then all those “mainstream Germans” passed by and shook their heads, some commenting pretty similar stuff about “leftist anarchists”. That actually made me pretty sad - because the protestors actually where the only ones who had the guts to voice their opinion, trying to protect the German state (and all its mainstream citizens) from a danger they perceived as imminent enough to get into trouble for standing against it. Actually that is pretty much a T-Man attitude, if you ask me. So I mustered up all my courage walked in, to talk to the NPD guys, telling them that I think that they should be banned, and got into an interesting discussion with one of them. Neither of us changed our minds on that day, but we all took part in the democratic process.
My point? Being “mainstream” is sometimes not as good as it might seem. People who voice their opinions are sometimes loud and annoying - and sometimes they have to be. Normally they have an interest in making things better, for their children, country, etc. Sometimes they are morons, some of them are aggressive, but mostly they are still decent people.
Coming back to our topic: I am actually quite happy with the news from NY - how many people rallied (hundreds of thousands over the days?), how many people were arrested (a few hundred?), and for what offences (public nudity, cycling)? Sorry, but a regular pub night in many places is much bloodier in comparison.
After having had the discussion last week about chaos, mayhem and bloodshed to be expected in NY, I think all sides have proven to be pretty civilised.
Hence, I rest my case - some of the demonstrators have overstepped the line, and hopefully have been dealt with accordingly, but the vast majority have proven to be good Americans, making use of their right to demonstrate, and point out that they are perhaps not “mainstream”, but “normal” and value-driven. You might consider them idiots and freaks, but they are essentially guarding your freedoms by exercising their rights and taking part in the democratic progress.
Makkun
PS: Sorry to everyone for the longish answer.
makkun:
Did read the last line in my original post?
I am grateful that we live in a country where even some of the hate filled marchers have the opportunity to voice their opinion.
Again, that does not change my contention that they are far from mainstream America. In fact they are very far left!
If you saw a group of right wing radicals marching carrying signs claiming that ________(fill in the blank) was inferior to them. And comparing Hillary Clinton to Adolf Hitler would you say that they were mainstream America?
Would it be just as cool, or perhaps “mainstream”? In your case is how close the group is to your beliefs. That’s possible in all our cases!
I think we have to look at each fringe as just that-Not mainstream America. Oh, they have a right to march (and I am glad the right is there), but…their not mainstream…sorry.
Best of the Web
BY JAMES TARANTO
Wednesday, September 1, 2004 3:13 p.m. EDT
Line Noise
NEW YORK–The line to get into last night’s Michael Reagan party at Manhattan’s Gotham Hall ended on Sixth Avenue and snaked around West 36th Street to the erstwhile bank building’s entrance on Broadway. Even though we hate waiting in lines, we decided to endure this one, for it seemed to be moving fairly quickly. We waited along with John Barnes, Karen Furey and Wally Olson, and some protesters treated us to a show.
A guy on a bicycle stood just off the Sixth Avenue curb, wearing a T-shirt that said “F— Bush” (except there was an actual obscenity in place of the hyphens) and shouting slogans like “Billions for war, nothing for the poor.” Now there’s a policy we could get behind! But he probably meant this as a complaint, albeit (at least when it comes to the poor) an inaccurate one. Next to him stood a young lady with a sign that said “Privatizing water is not true security.”
People in line heckled back the potty-shirted heckler, and he responded by repeatedly shouting, “You’re scum! You’re the slime of the earth!” A guy behind us observed, “I love hearing that from someone wearing a shirt like that.” Suddenly a group of perhaps a dozen materialized, chanting and carrying a banner that read “Free John Hinckley.” Their slogan: “F— Reagan! Go home!” They moved down the avenue at a very fast pace and were gone as quickly as they arrived. Between their chant and the bicyclist’s shirt, we really started to wonder how anyone can call President Bush inarticulate.
After awhile, a cop ordered Bicycle Boy and Water Privatization Girl to move along, but she came back as soon as the cop had left and said: “I apologize for those people who don’t know how to talk like a human being.” That was awfully gracious of her.
The whole scene was an apt microcosm of contemporary protest culture, what we’ve termed “global village idiots.” These protesters have no unified message, apart from a generalized hatred; a quote on CNN.com the other day summed this up nicely:
Leslie Cagan, national coordinator for United for Peace and Justice, said the message revolves around the word "no."
"We are saying 'no' to the Bush agenda, 'no' to the war in Iraq, 'no' to the regime change by our government, 'no' to pre-emptive war, 'no' to the economic policies," Cagan said.
We suppose it’s a backhanded homage to Nancy “Just Say No” Reagan, though Cagan pointedly did not list drugs among the things to which her people are saying “no.” Along with the “no”-sayers are people promoting an endless variety of arcane single issues, like water privatization. (Did you have any idea this was an issue anywhere?)
Inside the party, we chatted about this with Larry Mone of the Manhattan Institute, who pointed out that Bush-hatred is not at the root of this phenomenon; rather, Bush is merely a convenient target of the generalized hatred–someone to say “no” to. But these people were protesting in the Clinton years and before, and doubtless they’ll stay on the scene no matter who the president is next year.
Street protest is central to the mythology of the liberal-left in America, which romanticizes (rightly) the civil-rights marches of the early 1960s and (less rightly) the antiwar demonstrations of the late '60s and early '70s. In contrast, there’s nothing like this on the right, except for the antiabortion movement and the occasional ad hoc protest, like the one in Florida against the Clinton administration’s abduction and deportation of Elian Gonzalez.
The liberal media generally present these protests as if they’re wholesome, all-American expressions of opinion, glossing over the reality that the protesters are a motley collection of extreme partisans, antieverything nihilists and single-issue fanatics. This allows liberal elites to imagine that their loathing of the president is a populist posture.
Yet although it would be unfair to characterize the protesters as representing the mainstream of the Democratic Party, the differences between the “respectable” liberal-left and the wacko protesters have become increasingly blurred. While we’ve been out on the town enjoying the parties of the right, National Review’s Byron York has been bravely venturing into the fever swamps of the Angry Left. Yesterday he reported on “the ‘Big Tent Extravaganza,’ a gathering of musicians, actors, and comedians co-sponsored by Planned Parenthood and its affiliate, Planned Parenthood Republicans for Choice”:
One featured performer, the comedian Lewis Black, had a message for GOP delegates who might hold other views.
"It is un-fu**ing-believable that since the time I was 15 we have been having to argue this sh**," Black said. "There comes a point where you say, f**k you, enough is enough. There is no argument. It's not your body, a**hole. Shut the f**k up."
Black's words summed up the uneasy division onstage at the Beacon. Every time a speaker at the "Big Tent Extravaganza" offered conciliatory words -- as when Sex in the City actress Cynthia Nixon said, "I am here today to applaud and thank and salute a brave and tenacious group of Republicans, Republicans for Choice" -- another speaker was considerably less welcoming. Shortly before Nixon spoke, for example, the lesbian comedian Suzanne Westenhoefer said of religious conservatives, "I support any religion that brings people up. Anything that brings people down, your ass is mine. That's f**king bullsh**." Westenhoefer also described her fundamentalist sister as "a whack-job Christian," and added that "Mormons are whack jobs, too." And she launched into an extended discussion of the actor Mel Gibson and his movie The Passion, saying, "He's a f**king a**hole."
Today York has a report on an appearance by former Enron adviser Paul Krugman:
Krugman says he believes the United States needs a "mega-Watergate" scandal to uncover a far-reaching right-wing conspiracy, going back forty years, to gain control of the U.S. government and roll back civil rights. . . . Krugman told the crowd that the president is simply a front man for larger and more sinister forces.
"We probably make a mistake when we place too much emphasis on Bush the individual," said Krugman, who received a standing ovation when he was introduced. "This really isn't about Bush. Bush is the guy that the movement found to take them over the top. But it didn't start with him, and it won't end with him. What's going on in this country is that a radical movement . . . that had been building for several decades, finally found their moment and their man in Bush."
Krugman described the conspiracy as "the coalition between the malefactors of great wealth and the religious right." He offered no further details about who, precisely, is in the conspiracy but said that "substantial chunks of the media are part of this same movement."
Krugman said he and other liberals had been "asleep" and unaware of the true dimensions of the danger during the years in which President Bill Clinton found himself facing a variety of scandal allegations. But Krugman said there is a "complete continuity" between today's politics and the "campaign of slander and innuendo" against Clinton. "There's complete continuity going back, really, I think--but this is my next book--you really need to go back to Goldwater. A lot of this has to do with civil rights, and the people who don't like them."
Such paranoid lunacy would be merely laughable did it not come from someone who has a twice-weekly op-ed slot at the once-respected New York Times. Krugman’s moonbat ranting encapsulates the combination of rage and nostalgia that is at the heart of the Angry Left. They still think they’re fighting for civil rights, a battle their predecessors won two generations ago. They long for another Vietnam; hence the endless insistence that Afghanistan and Iraq are “quagmires.” And they fondly remember–and hope for a repetition of–Watergate. This time, they hope, such a scandal will do permanent damage to the GOP and conservatism.
In the 1970s, the left prevailed in persuading America to withdraw from Vietnam, albeit at the cost (which they rarely acknowledge) of subjecting millions of Vietnamese people to communist slavery, and Watergate enabled them to bring down a hated president–something they had been unable to do at the ballot box. For guys like Krugman, that is, the era of Vietnam and Watergate was a time of triumph. But for most Americans it was a low point in recent American history–and certainly not something we’d like to relive.
[End excerpt]
Zeb, the point is that you are saying the whole group is a disgusting fringe. Lighten up a bit.
I’m sure there were plenty of decent and normal people who actually have jobs who participated – and did not have any particularly nasty message to convey.
Just because you feel only fringe elements would be involved in a protest does not make it so. I guess it’s too bad most people really don’t have the time or inclination to care enough about anything to speak up about it.
Is that a really good thing, even if it is mainstream?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
makkun:
Did read the last line in my original post?[/quote]
Um, err, which one:[quote]
The hate that many liberals carry is very deep, and it’s very sad.
(…)
vroom name calling again I see.
(…)
How many main stream Americans have ever protested anything in their lives? Come on Lumpy these people are ultra liberal fanatics who are filled with hate![/quote]
I guess that is the one. Sorry, I had to look it up again. ;-)[quote]
I am grateful that we live in a country where even some of the hate filled marchers have the opportunity to voice their opinion.
Again, that does not change my contention that they are far from mainstream America. In fact they are very far left![/quote]
Yes, so am I. I am not sure about the fact that they are very far left, as the Bush administration and its opponents seem to have polarised things a little bit.
I am also happy that the USA is still a country that allows this kind of behaviour. But to be honest, even your Democratic Party is being considered pretty conservative compared to many other parties worldwide. Also it is pretty far from socialism, as discussed on another thread on this site.
I very strongly believe in pluralism - the wider, the merrier. It guarantees … uh … freedom.
[quote]
If you saw a group of right wing radicals marching carrying signs claiming that ________(fill in the blank) was inferior to them. And comparing Hillary Clinton to Adolf Hitler would you say that they were mainstream America?[/quote]
I did see that, not in the USA though. That is why I told this longish story. Was a scary thing, this Nazi stuff, because I am German and it is a bit of a taboo. I also hope you did not misunderstand my parabel as comparison of Bush and Hitler - I meant it clearly as a comparison of people protesting for a reason they believe in, fostered by a strong value system.[quote]
Would it be just as cool, or perhaps “mainstream”? In your case is how close the group is to your beliefs. That’s possible in all our cases![/quote]
I never said it was cool - in fact I think wearing hats and stickers while chanting is pretty dorky, but it has an important function in our democracies.
If I understand you correctly though, this was just my point: We all have our different agendas and viewpoints, but just because we don’t agree with others, it does not mean they are wrong. In my view the best thing you can do is to continuously reconsider your own opinions, just in case you might be wrong.[quote]
I think we have to look at each fringe as just that-Not mainstream America. Oh, they have a right to march (and I am glad the right is there), but…their not mainstream…sorry. [/quote]
Yes, I have to admit that. My point went a little further though - I think that “mainstream” is not always a good thing. “Mainstream” can be apathetic and not aware that things go awry - sometimes it is the role of “misfits” to point out a problem or danger that is around. Healthy debate (in German “Streitkultur” , in English roughly “Argument Culture”) is the essence of democracy. The protesters may not be the most convincing or T-mannish supporters of it, but they do try to make a valid contribution. They might be disgruntled, but are not just drones “filled with hate”.
Makkun
I’m probably better off just ignoring lumpy. His brain must be so fried from the acid and other shit the counter-culture whacks do to themselves, he cant post something intelligent. What is he doing on this goddamn site anyway? T-man my ass.
Yep, I’m probably better off ignoring him but real quick…
First he challenges me to post a link detailing the illegal activities of the ruckus society…I do so and he is silent. Thats his usual mode, hit-and-run.
Then I challenge his beloved ACLU and his whole liberal doctrine and he comes back with some crap about 500,000 protestors? Here is the highest number I could find…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45279-2004Aug29.html?nav=rss_politics
Nobody has reported anything over 250,000…he just makes shit up as he goes along I guess.
Lastly, he blames the cop who stepped through the skylight for his injuries. The fact of the matter is, the criminal asshole is responsible for the injuries.
Regardless of his training, if the cop didn’t have to chase their worthless hides around, he wouldnt have gotten hurt. How about the cop that got hurt on Monday when he was kicked in the head by one of your buddies? That his fault too? One of the most distorted world views I have ever come across.
Instead of shooting down your empty beliefs or simply mocking you some more for the fool that you are, how about this? Find a liberal friend who is far more capable of rational thought than you, lend him/her your computer(which was probably purchased with my tax money), give them some government cheese for energy, and have them post something on here that isnt an outright lie or a cut and paste job from a nutty leftist site. If we were to filter all of your posts using that criteria, there would be no lumpy turning these message boards into a sewer.
makkun:
Yes, “they make a contribution.” They inspire people to vote for George W. Bush!
I’d hate to bust your bubble on the mainstream theory… but we aren’t it either. The mainstream doesn’t argue politics and generally doesn’t even vote.
The mainstream is the group of people that have turned the politics forum off so they don’t even have to see it.
Woohoo, Zeb, you are a radical! Doesn’t it make you feel good you wild-eyed fringy freak?
[quote]vroom wrote:
I’d hate to bust your bubble on the mainstream theory… but we aren’t it either. The mainstream doesn’t argue politics and generally doesn’t even vote.
The mainstream is the group of people that have turned the politics forum off so they don’t even have to see it.
Woohoo, Zeb, you are a radical! Doesn’t it make you feel good you wild-eyed fringy freak?[/quote]
I agree…main stream anything is a scary scary scary site…main stream america is something along the lines of jerry springer.