[quote]Bauber wrote:
Sure waiting to have nasal polyps removed is no big deal, but what if it had been more serious or painful?
[/quote]
Perhaps urgent and life-threatening matters require some more…urgency, while non-urgent cases can sit on the waiting list a couple weeks? Seems like an irrational aproach, but maybe?..
Just a wild guess.
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Jumbled in with a bunch of other nonsense someone said something along the lines of education and healthcare being a “right”.
Neither of those are a right. A service provided to you is not and cannot be a right by definition. Rights are inherent an inalienable, not services donated to you for your accord. [/quote]
Sadly, I know a lot of people who would argue that they are rights until they passed out.[/quote]
It is very easy to destroy any argument they can come up with. It only takes a few simple questions.
More often than not people confuse “access to seek out” and “delivery of” when discussing things of this nature.
Yes it is your right to seek out education and healthcare. It is your right to procure them. It is NOT your right that someone provide it for you, else it violates their right ot freedom. If they choose to provide you with that service, it is still a voluntary exchange, whether a fee is paid or not.
The point being, you can’t call someone doing something for someone else a right, unless only the receiver in the situation has rights. In a nation where all people’s rights are accepted as equal, that is impossible.
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Jumbled in with a bunch of other nonsense someone said something along the lines of education and healthcare being a “right”.
Neither of those are a right. A service provided to you is not and cannot be a right by definition. Rights are inherent an inalienable, not services donated to you for your accord. [/quote]
Sadly, I know a lot of people who would argue that they are rights until they passed out.[/quote]
I meant rights in the broad sense of the word, as in shit you’d read in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or some thrash like that.
[quote]2busy wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
it’s a stretch to say that without American involvement European states would be mere provinces of a hegemonic Germany.
[/quote]
I think you forgot about the scope that the US provided supplies to Great Britain and Russia.
Without the US providing the materials to Britain, Russia, and other countries, I think the outcome would have been significantly different.
For example, the US provided the following to the USSR (from Lend-Lease - Wikipedia)
“In total, the US deliveries through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks, about 1,386[25] of which were M3 Lees and 4,102 M4 Shermans);[26] 11,400 aircraft (4,719 of which were Bell P-39 Airacobras)[27] and 1.75 million tons of food.[28]”
It wasn’t just the troops we sent. [/quote]
I’m well aware of that. However, Soviet industrial production played the decisive role on the eastern front, not American material support.
[quote]ChongLordUno wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You’re completely ignoring the actual important parts of my post. [/quote]
I know because I’m heading off to the boozers to watch the 2nd half of the Man City game! Sorry. We’ll do lunch sometime![/quote]
You and Pwnisher need to start up courses about not giving a fuck
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]2busy wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
it’s a stretch to say that without American involvement European states would be mere provinces of a hegemonic Germany.
[/quote]
I think you forgot about the scope that the US provided supplies to Great Britain and Russia.
Without the US providing the materials to Britain, Russia, and other countries, I think the outcome would have been significantly different.
For example, the US provided the following to the USSR (from Lend-Lease - Wikipedia)
“In total, the US deliveries through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks, about 1,386[25] of which were M3 Lees and 4,102 M4 Shermans);[26] 11,400 aircraft (4,719 of which were Bell P-39 Airacobras)[27] and 1.75 million tons of food.[28]”
It wasn’t just the troops we sent. [/quote]
I’m well aware of that. However, Soviet industrial production played the decisive role on the eastern front, not American material support. [/quote]
Perhaps. Maybe if they had to build trains and trucks, things may have been different.
I would presume having to build 2000 train engines, 11,000 railroad cars, and 66% of your support trucks may have impacted your T-34 production.
"Much of the aid can be better understood when considering the economic distortions caused by the war. Most belligerent powers cut back severely on production of non-essentials, concentrating on producing weapons. This inevitably produced shortages of related products needed by the military or as part of the military-industrial complex.
The USSR was highly dependent on rail transportation, but the war practically shut down rail equipment production: only about 92 locomotives were produced. 2,000 locomotives and 11,000 railcars were supplied under Lend-Lease. Likewise, the Soviet air force received 18,700 aircraft, which amounted to about 14% of Soviet aircraft production (19% for military aircraft).[19]
Although most Red Army tank units were equipped with Soviet-built tanks, their logistical support was provided by hundreds of thousands of U.S.-made trucks. Indeed by 1945 nearly two-thirds of the truck strength of the Red Army was U.S.-built. "
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
Sure waiting to have nasal polyps removed is no big deal, but what if it had been more serious or painful?
[/quote]
Perhaps urgent and life-threatening matters require some more…urgency, while non-urgent cases can sit on the waiting list a couple weeks? Seems like an irrational aproach, but maybe?..
Just a wild guess.[/quote]
Funny a girl I was with was having severe pain in the abdomen, running fever, etc. The exact symptoms of appendicitis (which she had btw) and the doctor gave us a 3 days wait time. Yes, that is correct, 3 fucking days. And I have never seen so many sick and ill people crammed in every open space imaginable.
Had I not gone back to our hotel and done some asking around our last resort would have been the US Embassy. I paid 500 dollars in US cash and guess what? She got seen immediately in front of every other single person there. This was in Rome. The physician then recommended we get the surgery done elsewhere if we possibly could. So, we then contacted the US Embassy and went from there. A US army doc ended up doing the simple procedure.
I am sorry, but if that is the level of healthcare you enjoy. Have at it.
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Jumbled in with a bunch of other nonsense someone said something along the lines of education and healthcare being a “right”.
Neither of those are a right. A service provided to you is not and cannot be a right by definition. Rights are inherent an inalienable, not services donated to you for your accord. [/quote]
Sadly, I know a lot of people who would argue that they are rights until they passed out.[/quote]
I meant rights in the broad sense of the word, as in shit you’d read in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or some thrash like that.
[/quote]
Oh right that thing written by the UN. What a fucking joke.
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Jumbled in with a bunch of other nonsense someone said something along the lines of education and healthcare being a “right”.
Neither of those are a right. A service provided to you is not and cannot be a right by definition. Rights are inherent an inalienable, not services donated to you for your accord. [/quote]
Sadly, I know a lot of people who would argue that they are rights until they passed out.[/quote]
I meant rights in the broad sense of the word, as in shit you’d read in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or some thrash like that.
[/quote]
There are people in our country who would include cell phones, big screen tvs and high entry level job earnings in this broad sense. You understand why a line needs to be drawn or it will never end.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]2busy wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
it’s a stretch to say that without American involvement European states would be mere provinces of a hegemonic Germany.
[/quote]
I think you forgot about the scope that the US provided supplies to Great Britain and Russia.
Without the US providing the materials to Britain, Russia, and other countries, I think the outcome would have been significantly different.
For example, the US provided the following to the USSR (from Lend-Lease - Wikipedia)
“In total, the US deliveries through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks, about 1,386[25] of which were M3 Lees and 4,102 M4 Shermans);[26] 11,400 aircraft (4,719 of which were Bell P-39 Airacobras)[27] and 1.75 million tons of food.[28]”
It wasn’t just the troops we sent. [/quote]
I’m well aware of that. However, Soviet industrial production played the decisive role on the eastern front, not American material support. [/quote]
Stalin seems to disagree with you…
Joseph Stalin, during the Tehran Conference in 1943, acknowledged publicly the importance of American efforts during a dinner at the conference: “Without American production the United Nations [the Allies] could never have won the war.”[22]
Source was “One War Won.” Time Magazine, 13 December 1943. One War Won -- Printout -- TIME
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Jumbled in with a bunch of other nonsense someone said something along the lines of education and healthcare being a “right”.
Neither of those are a right. A service provided to you is not and cannot be a right by definition. Rights are inherent an inalienable, not services donated to you for your accord. [/quote]
Sadly, I know a lot of people who would argue that they are rights until they passed out.[/quote]
I meant rights in the broad sense of the word, as in shit you’d read in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or some thrash like that.
[/quote]
There are people in our country who would include cell phones, big screen tvs and high entry level job earnings in this broad sense. You understand why a line needs to be drawn or it will never end.[/quote]
A lot of people confuse the right to opportunity with the a right to outcome.
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Jumbled in with a bunch of other nonsense someone said something along the lines of education and healthcare being a “right”.
Neither of those are a right. A service provided to you is not and cannot be a right by definition. Rights are inherent an inalienable, not services donated to you for your accord. [/quote]
Sadly, I know a lot of people who would argue that they are rights until they passed out.[/quote]
I meant rights in the broad sense of the word, as in shit you’d read in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or some thrash like that.
[/quote]
Oh right that thing written by the UN. What a fucking joke.[/quote]
Not funnier than your bill of rights. Not funnier than the second amendment.
Your mentality especially is what I find hilarious but hey feel free to explain what you find so funny about it.
You obviously don’t want to live within the standards set by evolved societies so you’re certainly free to enjoy an oligarchy riddled with crime and social injustice.
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
Sure waiting to have nasal polyps removed is no big deal, but what if it had been more serious or painful?
[/quote]
Perhaps urgent and life-threatening matters require some more…urgency, while non-urgent cases can sit on the waiting list a couple weeks? Seems like an irrational aproach, but maybe?..
Just a wild guess.[/quote]
Funny a girl I was with was having severe pain in the abdomen, running fever, etc. The exact symptoms of appendicitis (which she had btw) and the doctor gave us a 3 days wait time. Yes, that is correct, 3 fucking days. And I have never seen so many sick and ill people crammed in every open space imaginable.
Had I not gone back to our hotel and done some asking around our last resort would have been the US Embassy. I paid 500 dollars in US cash and guess what? She got seen immediately in front of every other single person there. This was in Rome. The physician then recommended we get the surgery done elsewhere if we possibly could. So, we then contacted the US Embassy and went from there. A US army doc ended up doing the simple procedure.
I am sorry, but if that is the level of healthcare you enjoy. Have at it.[/quote]
No that’s not the level of healthcare I enjoy or experience. Dude, plenty of people have had experiences who perfectly illustrate how disgusting your healthcare can be.
I don’t know if you’re thick or misinformed or just brainwashed but Jesus fucking christ nailed on a stick, but with your propaganda spillage it’s like you’re trying to prove my earlier point about education and group influenced bias in information outlets.
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Jumbled in with a bunch of other nonsense someone said something along the lines of education and healthcare being a “right”.
Neither of those are a right. A service provided to you is not and cannot be a right by definition. Rights are inherent an inalienable, not services donated to you for your accord. [/quote]
Sadly, I know a lot of people who would argue that they are rights until they passed out.[/quote]
I meant rights in the broad sense of the word, as in shit you’d read in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or some thrash like that.
[/quote]
Oh right that thing written by the UN. What a fucking joke.[/quote]
Not funnier than your bill of rights. Not funnier than the second amendment.
Your mentality especially is what I find hilarious but hey feel free to explain what you find so funny about it.
You obviously don’t want to live within the standards set by evolved societies so you’re certainly free to enjoy an oligarchy riddled with crime and social injustice.
[/quote]
What I find funny about this is that traditionally rights were negative rights because my “rights” do correspond with your obligations.
Meaning, if I have the right to speak my mind, you are obligated not to actively silence me.
Alas, this idea has been corrupted in that positve “rights” obligate me to slave and toil for you and to fork my hardwon money over.
That however directly violates my right to own the fruits of my own labor and therefore my freedom.
edit: If you really want to have a go at it, go on…
I would suggest that you at least get somewhat acquainted with John Locke, Rothbard, Nozick and Hayek, but you know, so many people mistake gut feelings for informed opinions …
Ps: I am being an ass again, and I know it, alas…
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Jumbled in with a bunch of other nonsense someone said something along the lines of education and healthcare being a “right”.
Neither of those are a right. A service provided to you is not and cannot be a right by definition. Rights are inherent an inalienable, not services donated to you for your accord. [/quote]
Sadly, I know a lot of people who would argue that they are rights until they passed out.[/quote]
I meant rights in the broad sense of the word, as in shit you’d read in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or some thrash like that.
[/quote]
Oh right that thing written by the UN. What a fucking joke.[/quote]
Not funnier than your bill of rights. Not funnier than the second amendment.
Your mentality especially is what I find hilarious but hey feel free to explain what you find so funny about it.
You obviously don’t want to live within the standards set by evolved societies so you’re certainly free to enjoy an oligarchy riddled with crime and social injustice.
[/quote]
The bill of rights is the single most brilliant piece of legislation to ever be crafted by a group of men along with the Constitution.
Evolved species don’t bow to a master and spout it is as social justice and equality. With where you hail from, your comments are hilarious.
[quote]Bauber wrote:
I am sorry, but if that is the level of healthcare you enjoy. Have at it.[/quote]
[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
Maybe you mean socialized medicine where the hospitals are utterly disgusting and run down? Where if you don’t have cash, good luck getting seen anywhere within that week. You can downplay this all you want or call bs, but I have been to Emergency rooms in Rome and one in England and both I wouldn’t want my dog to be given care in.
[/quote]
Although it is indicated U.S.A has the most top ranking hospitals in the world:
http://hospitals.webometrics.info/en/world
It’s funny European health care systems are considered better than U.S.A, no?
(rankings based on health, health equality, responsiveness, responsiveness equality and fair financial contribution)[/quote]
Again, research indicating US healthcare ranking below these disgusting socialised healthcare systems lol.
“U.S. ranks last among seven countries on health system performance based on measures of quality, efficiency, access, equity, and health lives.”
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/News/News-Releases/2010/Jun/US-Ranks-Last-Among-Seven-Countries.aspx
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Jumbled in with a bunch of other nonsense someone said something along the lines of education and healthcare being a “right”.
Neither of those are a right. A service provided to you is not and cannot be a right by definition. Rights are inherent an inalienable, not services donated to you for your accord. [/quote]
Sadly, I know a lot of people who would argue that they are rights until they passed out.[/quote]
I meant rights in the broad sense of the word, as in shit you’d read in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or some thrash like that.
[/quote]
Oh right that thing written by the UN. What a fucking joke.[/quote]
Not funnier than your bill of rights. Not funnier than the second amendment.
Your mentality especially is what I find hilarious but hey feel free to explain what you find so funny about it.
You obviously don’t want to live within the standards set by evolved societies so you’re certainly free to enjoy an oligarchy riddled with crime and social injustice.
[/quote]
What I find funny about this is that traditionally rights were negative rights because my “rights” do correspond with your obligations.
Meaning, if I have the right to speak my mind, you are obligated not to actively silence me.
Alas, this idea has been corrupted in that positve “rights” obligate me to slave and toil for you and to fork my hardwon money over.
That however directly violates my right to own the fruits of my own labor and therefore my freedom.
edit: If you really want to have a go at it, go on…
I would suggest that you at least get somewhat acquainted with John Locke, Rothbard, Nozick and Hayek, but you know, so many people mistake gut feelings for informed opinions …
Ps: I am being an ass again, and I know it, alas…[/quote]
Reading John Locke, Rothbard, Nozick, or even Hayek would blow his mind and perfect little bubble of how he views rights and social justice.
[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
I am sorry, but if that is the level of healthcare you enjoy. Have at it.[/quote]
[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
Maybe you mean socialized medicine where the hospitals are utterly disgusting and run down? Where if you don’t have cash, good luck getting seen anywhere within that week. You can downplay this all you want or call bs, but I have been to Emergency rooms in Rome and one in England and both I wouldn’t want my dog to be given care in.
[/quote]
Although it is indicated U.S.A has the most top ranking hospitals in the world:
http://hospitals.webometrics.info/en/world
It’s funny European health care systems are considered better than U.S.A, no?
(rankings based on health, health equality, responsiveness, responsiveness equality and fair financial contribution)[/quote]
Again, research indicating US healthcare ranking below these disgusting socialised healthcare systems lol.
“U.S. ranks last among seven countries on health system performance based on measures of quality, efficiency, access, equity, and health lives.”
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/News/News-Releases/2010/Jun/US-Ranks-Last-Among-Seven-Countries.aspx
[/quote]
Explain why we have so many people come HERE for treatment then, if they can afford it?
I live very close to St. Jude and do charity work every year throughout the year there. They have people clamoring to come there from everywhere in the world for treatment. Since Europe’s medical care is so much better why don’t they all go there?
The US is where the cutting edge medicine is produced, so all your European hospitals can thank us for that too. When you provide the latest and most advanced care it usually costs more. Kind of like buying a new car versus a model 20 years old.
The US healthcare is the best at treating illnesses and diseases, but we lack sorely on preventative care. Because, there is more money in treating the symptoms and disease once it has taken hold. I am not saying out system is perfect, FAR from it. But, the care and access is top notch in the US just about anywhere you go.
Our preventative measures and costs leave a lot to be desired though.
And you can keep quoting statistics all you want, but those don’t really paint the picture accurately with what you are saying due to the factors taken in to account.
How does a thread about a parking lot beat down turn into this?
In terms of quality care, U.S. ranked 6th.
In terms of safe care, U.S. ranked 7th.
In terms of timelines of care U.S. ranked 5th.
In terms of efficiency, guess what? U.S. ranked dead last yet again at 7th.
I don’t care to try and explain why a minority of european citizens go abroad for healthcare as it has nothing to do with the point at hand and would be purely conjecture.
You are making bold sweeping statements that universal healthcare here in Europe sucks when quite frankly the facts are right in front of you indicating that that is indeed not the case, if you cared to read the first link I posted you would have seen U.S.A ranked 37th whilst Italian healthcare ranked second and French first.
[quote]Bauber wrote:
Explain why we have so many people come HERE for treatment then, if they can afford it?
I live very close to St. Jude and do charity work every year throughout the year there. They have people clamoring to come there from everywhere in the world for treatment. Since Europe’s medical care is so much better why don’t they all go there?
The US is where the cutting edge medicine is produced, so all your European hospitals can thank us for that too. When you provide the latest and most advanced care it usually costs more. Kind of like buying a new car versus a model 20 years old.[/quote]
