I remember reading High Tension Training a while back and being thoroughly impressed. I also remember curiosity getting the best of me and going to the gym right after I read through it to try out the Snatch based workout. I was wiped out by the end of that one and decided that I would run through the whole program one day. I think I am going to give it another try now that I am in better shape.
Thanks HT and CT for bringing up this program and posting it again.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]TomasK wrote:
CT, what do u think about to start first with clean/snatch pulls and than continue with the main Oly movement? [/quote]
Been done by a few coaches. The only benefit I see to this is that using SLIGHTLY more weight on the pulls (no more than 10% more than you are going to use on the main lifts) can be a psychological boost in that the bar will feel lighter when you move on to the complete lifts. A lot of lifters tend to cut their pull short when they feel that the bar is heavy in their hands.
On the other hand, as I mentioned, I’m not a fan of using a lot of pulls if you are past the beginner stage in olympic lifting OR if you do not need to had muscle mass in the pulling muscles.
I have rarely seen a lifter have a pull that was mechanically similar to the pulling phase of his full lifts, so it can have a negative transfer if overdone and if too much weight is used.[/quote]
Thanks CT
I really like the article because i`ve always lifted the way your prescribe since i started just naturally. I have a question about the Olympic movements in that in my pulls i can easily do 245 for sets but in my movements such as the snatch for example i struggle with 170 for a few reps. is this normal?
Poor technique might be the culprit as well im suspecting. And also im having trouble developping the needed wrist flexibility for the clean.
Hey Coach (or anyone with experience with this),
I was reading through your “Black Book of Training Secrets” and the proper techniques for Olympic Lifts. Just 2 questions.
1.) First I was wondering I have an easier time do hang snatch about 135x2 v.s. a full snatch 125X1…would you have any idea why that might be?
2.) Secondly, it’s my 2nd week on this HTT workout regime. Week 1 I did:
monday: snatch
tuesday: cleans
wed:off
thursday: jerks
friday: dips, close-drip bench, hammer curls
sat:off
then I did snatches yesterday again, and today on Monday, when I went to Cleans Workout, I had a hard time after 4th set on the main lift…am I overdoing it? Is it better to take a day off after snatches and then move onto cleans?
Thanks for any help.
-Paul
[quote]bassip21 wrote:
Hey Coach (or anyone with experience with this),
I was reading through your “Black Book of Training Secrets” and the proper techniques for Olympic Lifts. Just 2 questions.
1.) First I was wondering I have an easier time do hang snatch about 135x2 v.s. a full snatch 125X1…would you have any idea why that might be?
[/quote]
From the hang, you can lower the bar into the correct power position and use good technique on the powerful second pull (full extension, bar close to the body). From the floor you need to be able to go around the knees and get the bar to the correct power position. This seems easy, but a lot of things can go wrong in that short distance. I know because I think I’ve done all of the mistakes.
If you’re just using the lifts to gain strength and size, just start from the hang since that’s the position from where you need to apply the most power. If you want to compete in Olympic lifting, you’ll need to learn how to pull from the floor.
I’ll let CT answer your second question.
i will agree to the high pull thing CT was talking about. i used to go crazy on the high pulls, in fact, when i stopped competing i preferred the high pul(snatch or clean) to actual cleans and snatches. i based my entire workout around them. i would go heavy on snatch high pulls, then do snatch pulls, then front squats, later in the week i would do clean high pulls, then clean pulls, then deadlifts. jerks were another day.
i was snatch high pulling 300-330 to my low chest for reps as recently as a few years ago. i would say my back is my “best” bodypart, and i think i built it primarily with the high pull.
however, now if i am doing snatches or cleans, i will maybe add a 5 or 10kg plate on each side after my top sets and then do high pulls. no need to go any heavier.
So, want to build lots of muscle? high pull, then high pull
want to improve your snatch or clean? not so much with the heavy high pulls.
HT
Am I wrong to assume that the weights you used went up as you changed exercises from high pulls, to pulls, to deadlifts? Did you start from the ground for each or use a power high pull, for instance?
How effective would it be for an athlete or lifter to do just variations of pulls instead of the full or power versions of the O lifts?
What benefits would they miss out on?
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]rp_shea wrote:
Out of curiosity, what would you change about the other 2%? I tried it a while back and really liked it. I also agree that it was a great article.[/quote]
I would change the exercises. Back then I was still competing as an olympic lifter and thus wrote the article from an olympic lifter’s perspective.
[/quote]
What exercises would you use for this type of split?
Push = bench, Pull = Chin/pull-up, Legs = Squat/DL variation?
Thanks in advance.
[quote]Ryan71 wrote:
How effective would it be for an athlete or lifter to do just variations of pulls instead of the full or power versions of the O lifts?
What benefits would they miss out on?[/quote]
The pulls might arguably be better muscle builders than the power variations of the lifts. So if you are ONLY looking for more muscle mass, they might be an okay choice.
However if your goal is…
… then you should not focus on only pulls.
[quote]sanshin wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]rp_shea wrote:
Out of curiosity, what would you change about the other 2%? I tried it a while back and really liked it. I also agree that it was a great article.[/quote]
I would change the exercises. Back then I was still competing as an olympic lifter and thus wrote the article from an olympic lifter’s perspective.
[/quote]
What exercises would you use for this type of split?
Push = bench, Pull = Chin/pull-up, Legs = Squat/DL variation?
Thanks in advance.[/quote]
PUSH:
PULL:
LEGS:
*Use a) for a squat dominant workout and b) for a hips dominant workout.
CT
Regarding your previous post.
Excercise 1 would be micro ramping up in sets of 3?
The 3-5 assistance exercises would be 1-2 max rep sets? (perhaps a couple of feeler sets before hand - Am thinking that if your were going onto the bench press after Military Press this may be appropriate)
Would one aim for around 5-8 reps on assistance exercises?
How would you modify this appraoch for someone who is only lifting weights Mon, Wed and Friday, but keeping active? (Muay Thai, soccer on other days) I’m thinking in terms of more time for muscle recovery - perhaps more volume, 5 assistance exercises instead of 3?
Thankyou in advance
[quote]moogweasel wrote:
CT
Regarding your previous post.
Excercise 1 would be micro ramping up in sets of 3?
The 3-5 assistance exercises would be 1-2 max rep sets? (perhaps a couple of feeler sets before hand - Am thinking that if your were going onto the bench press after Military Press this may be appropriate)
[/quote]
X2 to these questions!
although I just read your latest post in the training questions #3 thread and it was helpful in the process of the max rep sets!
[quote]toomuchcep wrote:
[quote]moogweasel wrote:
CT
Regarding your previous post.
Excercise 1 would be micro ramping up in sets of 3?
The 3-5 assistance exercises would be 1-2 max rep sets? (perhaps a couple of feeler sets before hand - Am thinking that if your were going onto the bench press after Military Press this may be appropriate)
[/quote]
X2 to these questions!
although I just read your latest post in the training questions #3 thread and it was helpful in the process of the max rep sets!
[/quote]
X3
I was thinking about this split, tell me what you think (anybody)…
Push/Pull/Legs
Format:
Exercise 1, ramping 3’s
Exercise 2(same as exercise 1), 5x5 @ 80% of weight reached in exercise 1
Exercise 3 & 4, assistance, 1-2 sets max reps with 70-75%
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
HT
Am I wrong to assume that the weights you used went up as you changed exercises from high pulls, to pulls, to deadlifts? Did you start from the ground for each or use a power high pull, for instance?[/quote]
yep. cleans, add weight the do high pulls, then and weight then do pulls.
as far as starting from the ground or hang goes…well, about 90% of the time i pull i pull from the ground. i like the hip and thigh work pulling from the ground gives you. when i was a competitive thrower, i would use the hang position more, as my legs stayed pretty beat up from the throws.
i rarely if ever pulled from blocks.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]Ryan71 wrote:
How effective would it be for an athlete or lifter to do just variations of pulls instead of the full or power versions of the O lifts?
What benefits would they miss out on?[/quote]
The pulls might arguably be better muscle builders than the power variations of the lifts. So if you are ONLY looking for more muscle mass, they might be an okay choice.
However if your goal is…
… then you should not focus on only pulls.[/quote]
I have to agree with CT. I’ve noticed an improvement in power and athleticism from doing at least the power versions of the lifts. I’ll admit this is based on a purely subjective assessment and not on any type of formal testing or whatever. I can’t explain why, either, although I suspect it has something to do with what Jim Wendler once wrote about the Olympic lifts. JW praised the Olympic lifts, which was a big deal because at the time he was still with Elite Fitness, and Dave Tate and company didn’t think that the O lifts were any better for speed and power development than speed squats and speed deadlifts. JW said that the O lifts were better because you couldn’t “cheat” on them. I’d say that the O lifts are better because you can’t be in denial with the O lifts, but the idea is the same. The idea is that with speed versions of squats and deadlifts, you really don’t know for sure if you’re truly moving the bar as fast as possible, and it’s very easy to fool yourself into thinking that you are. With the O lifts, you have immediate feedback - you either make the lift or you don’t. And with the exception of some really strong guys who might be able to muscle up the weight, you have to be explosive in order to make the lift.
The same is also true with pulls, to some extent. It’s very easy to load up the bar and say you clean pulled 300. Heck, I’ve been guilty of this myself. It’s what makes pulls fun - you can do way more weight on a clean pull than you can with a power clean or even a clean. But I agree with HT - while very heavy pulls may have a place in building mass, they will not carry over to the actual lift if you go way over your 1RM in the O lifts. The rule of thumb is to do pulls with 100% 1RM of your clean or snatch and at most 110%. I believe this is correct.
The short answer: Pulls can substitute for the full or power versions of the lifts IF you leave you ego at the door and are super disciplined and super honest with yourself and can avoid really loading up the bar with weight way above what you could clean or snatch. Otherwise, do the the O lifts.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]Ryan71 wrote:
How effective would it be for an athlete or lifter to do just variations of pulls instead of the full or power versions of the O lifts?
What benefits would they miss out on?[/quote]
The pulls might arguably be better muscle builders than the power variations of the lifts. So if you are ONLY looking for more muscle mass, they might be an okay choice.
However if your goal is…
… then you should not focus on only pulls.[/quote]
I have to agree with CT. I’ve noticed an improvement in power and athleticism from doing at least the power versions of the lifts. I’ll admit this is based on a purely subjective assessment and not on any type of formal testing or whatever. I can’t explain why, either, although I suspect it has something to do with what Jim Wendler once wrote about the Olympic lifts. JW praised the Olympic lifts, which was a big deal because at the time he was still with Elite Fitness, and Dave Tate and company didn’t think that the O lifts were any better for speed and power development than speed squats and speed deadlifts. JW said that the O lifts were better because you couldn’t “cheat” on them. I’d say that the O lifts are better because you can’t be in denial with the O lifts, but the idea is the same. The idea is that with speed versions of squats and deadlifts, you really don’t know for sure if you’re truly moving the bar as fast as possible, and it’s very easy to fool yourself into thinking that you are. With the O lifts, you have immediate feedback - you either make the lift or you don’t. And with the exception of some really strong guys who might be able to muscle up the weight, you have to be explosive in order to make the lift.
The same is also true with pulls, to some extent. It’s very easy to load up the bar and say you clean pulled 300. Heck, I’ve been guilty of this myself. It’s what makes pulls fun - you can do way more weight on a clean pull than you can with a power clean or even a clean. But I agree with HT - while very heavy pulls may have a place in building mass, they will not carry over to the actual lift if you go way over your 1RM in the O lifts. The rule of thumb is to do pulls with 100% 1RM of your clean or snatch and at most 110%. I believe this is correct.
The short answer: Pulls can substitute for the full or power versions of the lifts IF you leave you ego at the door and are super disciplined and super honest with yourself and can avoid really loading up the bar with weight way above what you could clean or snatch. Otherwise, do the the O lifts.[/quote]
QFT
one of the biggest, strongest, AND most athletic guys I ever trained with for a long length of time was a kid who was a full back for the local jr college here where i live, and was going to go on to play for Boise State until a rare form of cancer struck him down(he survived, but his athletic career was over). 6’1", 240lbs, and had arms shoulders and traps a silverback gorilla would be fond of. he LIVED on clean high pulls, and he did not cheat. he always got the bar up to his upper chest-neck, and he could get over 300lbs that way too.
just saying, high pulls done right=much muscle.
this is me snatch high pulling 140kg. i get it up to my mid chest. anything lower and it probably would be considered a snatch pull…
[video]153[/video]