Here is Vroom’s beginner thread with more info if you haven’t already looked at it.
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=640350
I suggest picking a program and putting together a diet for yourself along Berardi’s principles. Post your diet here to get critiqued once you’ve worked it out. And feel free to post with any specific training questions once you get going into some solid workouts
To the original poster,
There is a good thread in the “physique and performance photos” section called “gotta train photos” by a guy called gottatrain. He’s at 5’7" and only 147# but he’s ripped and looks much bigger. Put his chest development next to yours and he looks 50 pounds heavier. I assume that is the type of physique you’d like to have. In his thread he says that he was as heavy as 190 pounds while bulking. The only way you can get that really “cut” physique is to be significantly heavier than the weight you are at, then diet down to a lower weight. I can empathize with your situation because I felt the same way for a lot of my life. I’m only 18 right now, but during high school I was terrified of losing my precious abs, so much so that I never put any muscle on! Trust me, skinny dudes are a dime a dozen, if you want to be a better athlete or turn the girls’ heads at the beach, you’ve got to get stronger- no if ands or buts about it!
You seem like a pretty cool kid because you’ve taken all this criticsm very well. I’ll try to lay out what’s worked for me. While I have nowhere near the physique some other guys on here, I think I can give you some advice because I was at a very similar situation to you not long ago, with the exception of the incredibly stretchy nipples.
1.) EAT! For natually skinny teenagers, this is THE most important thing. I try to eat 5 times a day. I always eat breakfast, usually oatmeal but sometimes if I’m in a really hurry I just eat some canned chicken or tuna and a Kashi bar. The point is that you have to have something with some carbs and a little protein. I’ll also have two more snacks throughout the day that are similar to this. The other two meals (breakfast and dinner) are my two main meals. At these meals I literally eat until I’m almost sick- then I try to eat a little more! Settle for no less than 80g of protein in these two meals (that’ll be about 3 chicken breasts, 3 decent-sized burgers, a bigass portion of roast beef, etc.). A protein shake before you go to sleep is a great way to get in a little extra protein as well, it’s not neccessary but it helps.
2.) Lift heavy. Here’s a quick program off the top of my head:
Day 1
Dumbell Bench
Bentover Rows
Deadlifts
Day 2
Push Press
Chin-Ups (palms towards you)
Full Oly-Style Squats
Day 3
Close-Grip Bench
Chest-Supported or Seated Cable Rows
Deadlifts on a small (4-8") box
Day 4
Dumbell Military Press
Pull-Ups (palms away from you)
Bulgarian Split Squats
Obviously you don’t have to follow that exact program, but do you see what I’m getting at here? Pick the lifts where you can move some weight and that are compound movements. My opinion is, if you are doing more than 4 exercises in one day, you aren’t going hard enough on the ones that you’ve done. A little ab work at the end of those workouts would be fine, but the best ab workouts are deadlifts, squats, military press and chin-ups. If you do a set of heavy deadlifts and don’t feel it in the abs, you’re doing something wrong!
When I went through high school I didn’t have a clue what I was doing and I got almost no improvement. I got to college and my strength coach (I play a varsity sport) hooked me onto T-Nation and got me on a program where I’m eating right and lifting heavy. In the 5 months I’ve been here I’ve added 15-20 pounds while staying at about the same bodyfat (maybe 1-2% higher at the most). I haven’t worried about being skinny, and yet my ab definition is better than ever. I am starting to look less than a starving Somalian kid and more like a guy that actually works out.
You seem like a good kid so I don’t want to see you waste your time in high school like I did. Good luck man.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
To the original poster,
There is a good thread in the “physique and performance photos” section called “gotta train photos” by a guy called gottatrain. He’s at 5’7" and only 147# but he’s ripped and looks much bigger. Put his chest development next to yours and he looks 50 pounds heavier. I assume that is the type of physique you’d like to have. In his thread he says that he was as heavy as 190 pounds while bulking. The only way you can get that really “cut” physique is to be significantly heavier than the weight you are at, then diet down to a lower weight. I can empathize with your situation because I felt the same way for a lot of my life. I’m only 18 right now, but during high school I was terrified of losing my precious abs, so much so that I never put any muscle on! Trust me, skinny dudes are a dime a dozen, if you want to be a better athlete or turn the girls’ heads at the beach, you’ve got to get stronger- no if ands or buts about it!
You seem like a pretty cool kid because you’ve taken all this criticsm very well. I’ll try to lay out what’s worked for me. While I have nowhere near the physique some other guys on here, I think I can give you some advice because I was at a very similar situation to you not long ago, with the exception of the incredibly stretchy nipples.
1.) EAT! For natually skinny teenagers, this is THE most important thing. I try to eat 5 times a day. I always eat breakfast, usually oatmeal but sometimes if I’m in a really hurry I just eat some canned chicken or tuna and a Kashi bar. The point is that you have to have something with some carbs and a little protein. I’ll also have two more snacks throughout the day that are similar to this. The other two meals (breakfast and dinner) are my two main meals. At these meals I literally eat until I’m almost sick- then I try to eat a little more! Settle for no less than 80g of protein in these two meals (that’ll be about 3 chicken breasts, 3 decent-sized burgers, a bigass portion of roast beef, etc.). A protein shake before you go to sleep is a great way to get in a little extra protein as well, it’s not neccessary but it helps.
2.) Lift heavy. Here’s a quick program off the top of my head:
Day 1
Dumbell Bench
Bentover Rows
Deadlifts
Day 2
Push Press
Chin-Ups (palms towards you)
Full Oly-Style Squats
Day 3
Close-Grip Bench
Chest-Supported or Seated Cable Rows
Deadlifts on a small (4-8") box
Day 4
Dumbell Military Press
Pull-Ups (palms away from you)
Bulgarian Split Squats
Obviously you don’t have to follow that exact program, but do you see what I’m getting at here? Pick the lifts where you can move some weight and that are compound movements. My opinion is, if you are doing more than 4 exercises in one day, you aren’t going hard enough on the ones that you’ve done. A little ab work at the end of those workouts would be fine, but the best ab workouts are deadlifts, squats, military press and chin-ups. If you do a set of heavy deadlifts and don’t feel it in the abs, you’re doing something wrong!
When I went through high school I didn’t have a clue what I was doing and I got almost no improvement. I got to college and my strength coach (I play a varsity sport) hooked me onto T-Nation and got me on a program where I’m eating right and lifting heavy. In the 5 months I’ve been here I’ve added 15-20 pounds while staying at about the same bodyfat (maybe 1-2% higher at the most). I haven’t worried about being skinny, and yet my ab definition is better than ever. I am starting to look less than a starving Somalian kid and more like a guy that actually works out.
You seem like a good kid so I don’t want to see you waste your time in high school like I did. Good luck man.[/quote]
Good post!
here’s a HUGE tip for you. Looking like you actually can lift a weight with a shirt on is worth 10 times as much as having some abs with your shirt off. Damn kids these days, people see you more with ur shirt on, so wtf is up with this obsession with abs? Overrated.
[quote]Ren wrote:
here’s a HUGE tip for you. Looking like you actually can lift a weight with a shirt on is worth 10 times as much as having some abs with your shirt off. Damn kids these days, people see you more with ur shirt on, so wtf is up with this obsession with abs? Overrated.[/quote]
I generally agree with that but for me its more of a personal achievement,not to impress other people.
Seriously, thanks to all the recent posters:), i’ll probably use Big Boys Basics as my routine for a little while, diet unsure, i’ll shoot for 1.5g of protein and about half a pound to a pound a week that sound good? It’ll be based around healthy foods and i’ll read some articles aroudn this site for some help. I’ve always been scared of putting on weight and getting more fat:S guess ill have to conquer it. How long should i bulk till right now i’m at 145 should i go till 170? or judge by appearance?
[quote]K-Narf wrote:
Ren wrote:
here’s a HUGE tip for you. Looking like you actually can lift a weight with a shirt on is worth 10 times as much as having some abs with your shirt off. Damn kids these days, people see you more with ur shirt on, so wtf is up with this obsession with abs? Overrated.
I generally agree with that but for me its more of a personal achievement,not to impress other people.[/quote]
I don’t consider starvation much of an achievment.
[quote]AnTiDeatH wrote:
Seriously, thanks to all the recent posters:), i’ll probably use Big Boys Basics as my routine for a little while, diet unsure, i’ll shoot for 1.5g of protein and about half a pound to a pound a week that sound good? It’ll be based around healthy foods and i’ll read some articles aroudn this site for some help. I’ve always been scared of putting on weight and getting more fat:S guess ill have to conquer it. How long should i bulk till right now i’m at 145 should i go till 170? or judge by appearance?[/quote]
Until those L-XL shirts can’t be used as blankets or full body robes.
Routine
Routine
Day 1 (Upper Body)
Exercise: Barbell Bench Press
Sets: 8
Reps: 3
Rest: 60 seconds between sets
Load: 5RM (repetition maximum)
Tips: 24" hand spacing
Exercise: Bent Over Rows
Sets: 8
Reps: 3
Rest: 60s
Load: 5RM
Tips: 24" hand spacing
Exercise: Hoist Pull ups
Sets: 8
Reps: 3
Rest: 60s
Load: 5RM
Tips: Semi-supinated 18" grip
Exercise: Standing Dumbbell Shoulder Press
Sets: 8
Reps: 3
Rest: 60s
Load: 5RM
Tips: Semi-supinated 18" grip
Exercise: Skullcrushers
Sets: 3
Reps: 8
Rest: 60s
Load: 10RM
Day 2 (Lower Body)
Exercise: Barbell Squats
Sets: 3
Reps: 8
Rest: 90s
Load: 10RM
Tips: High bar position, feet shoulder-width apart
Exercise: Leg Raises
Sets: 3
Reps: 8
Rest: 60s
Load: 10RM
Tips: Perform hanging or on a leg raise apparatus.
Exercise:Barbell Deadlifts
Sets: 3
Reps: 8
Rest: 90s
Load: 10RM
Tips: Hold dumbbells at your sides; squat down until dumbbells are just below knee level.
Exercise: Decline Bench Sit-Ups
Sets: 3
Reps: 8
Rest: 60s
Load: 10RM
Tips: Hold a dumbbell or plate on your chest to increase the load.
Exercise: Standing Calf Raises
Sets: 3
Reps: 8
Rest: 60s
Load: 10RM
Day 3 (Off)
Perform 15-20 minutes of moderate intensity cardio.
Day 4 (Upper Body)
Exercise: 45? Incline Dumbbell Bench Press
Sets: 3
Reps: 8
Rest: 90s
Load: 10RM
Tips: Perform in a traditional fashion with the palms facing away from you as if holding a barbell.
Exercise: 45? Dumbbell Rows
Sets: 3
Reps: 8
Rest: 90s
Load: 10RM
Tips: Lay face down on the bench with the same hand position as the incline presses.
Exercise: Standing Barbell Curls
Sets: 3
Reps: 8
Rest: 60s
Load: 10RM
Tips: Perform with pinky fingers 18" apart.
Exercise: Close-Grip Bench Press
Sets: 3
Reps: 8
Rest: 60s
Load: 10RM
Tips: Perform with the same 18" hand position as the barbell curls.
Day 5 (Lower Body)
Exercise: Hack Squats
Sets: 8
Reps: 3
Rest: 60s
Load: 5RM
Tips: Hold a barbell or two dumbbells behind your legs. Squat down until your knuckles touch the top of your calves.
Exercise: Lying Leg Curls
Sets: 8
Reps: 3
Rest: 60s
Load: 5RM
Tips: Don’t let the feet rotate outward.
Exercise: Lying Leg Raises
Sets: 8
Reps: 3
Rest: 60s
Load: 5RM
Tips: Hold a dumbbell between your feet to increase the load.
Exercise: Seated Calf Raises
Sets: 8
Reps: 3
Rest: 30s
Load: 5RM
Days 6 and 7 (Off)
Perform 15-20 minutes of moderate intensity cardio if desired.
Its a modified version of big boys basics, i added in extra triceps work because they’re lagging like crazy. I’m also having a lot of trouble putting on strength and i’m extremely week, i don’t know how i can make sure i put on consistent strength… My last concern is is this not too little volume or have i been horribly misinformed in the past…
[quote]Professor X wrote:
K-Narf wrote:
Ren wrote:
here’s a HUGE tip for you. Looking like you actually can lift a weight with a shirt on is worth 10 times as much as having some abs with your shirt off. Damn kids these days, people see you more with ur shirt on, so wtf is up with this obsession with abs? Overrated.
I generally agree with that but for me its more of a personal achievement,not to impress other people.
I don’t consider starvation much of an achievment.[/quote]
I don’t ever remember even mentioning starving? WHen did I say that?I can get a six pack eating 3500 calories a day and have that six pack at around 210-220 pounds depending on the amount of definition I want. My situation is very different from the poster. You can only see the outline of my abs right now because thats the way I want it. I wanna gain more weight,but when I diet I’m definitly not starving myself. Thats f’n retarded!
[quote]K-Narf wrote:
Thats f’n retarded![/quote]
So was this poster’s original post.
We’re in agreement. In my first post on this thread I commented that its dumb for someone of his size or anywhere near his size to be dieting. He has no base to diet down too.
don’t worry if your terribly weak, everyones gotta start somewhere. A piece of advice I could give you though, is to use PERFECT form on your exercises. don’t feel like you have to use a lot of weight and thus sacrifice form. once your form is down, then add weight. It will make the workout much more effective.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
K-Narf wrote:
Thats f’n retarded!
So was this poster’s original post. [/quote]
We must give him a break. At 15 we are all mildly retarded due to the hormonal changes and growing we are doing at that age.
Kid, this is a chance for you to prove yourself. Don’t react to the negatives, and consider them jokes that are not funny.
Keep us updated, but no pics untill you gain some weight. Then show us what you looked like today, but a body shot, no fat pulling images.
I think you have a complicated lifting program for a beginner. Make it more basic for now and eat like there is no tomorrow. Do more pushups and pullups. Squat.
That’s it.
[quote]matsm21 wrote:
don’t worry if your terribly weak, everyones gotta start somewhere. A piece of advice I could give you though, is to use PERFECT form on your exercises. don’t feel like you have to use a lot of weight and thus sacrifice form. once your form is down, then add weight. It will make the workout much more effective. [/quote]
…and eat for fucks sake!
[quote]AnTiDeatH wrote:
gibran wrote:
Dude. Your nipple pull is fucking amazing, teach me!!!
The key is get really god damn fat one day, loose the 40-50 pounds you put on, and ull have a really loose nipple it worked for me.
[/quote]
To me, this may be the most important bit of info about you needed to give you advice. You aren’t simply a skinny kid in need of mass, your a former porker in need of mass–two totally different things.
It also explains a lot. Particularly your concern about getting fat again. Very typical for a person in you position that after all that work to lose the fat, your crazy paranoid about gaining it back.
The bright side is that what you have accomplished so far puts you in top twenty percent of achievment. Congratulations, you’re a “former fat boy,” (or FFB, as it’s known around here). There’s good info to be found here http://www.T-Nation.com/findArticle.do?article=05-118-diet .
FFB is basically short hand for a person with typical and particular physical and metabolic issues related to the fact that they have a natural disposition to lay down more fat than “normal” people.
The down side to what you’ve accomplished is keeping from gaining the fat back as time goes on is a more difficult task than the losing. If you can do that, it’ll put in the top five percent. Your challenge is that you want to be a one percenter–you want to build a quality physique from your now skinny-fat body. It may be a significant challenge, but it can be done.
The best thing you have going for you is your age. Well, your obvious dedication and will power, if you really lost all that weight, and your age. You’ll be much more likely to bounce back and bounce higher due to your age.
Lifting heavy ,hard, and often (like with Big Boy Basics) is a significant part of achieving your goal. Nutrition will be another, and probably bigger part. Being a FFB, you probably will have a higher muscle:fat weight gain ratio. That is, gaining muscle and fat usually go hand in hand. It isn’t a big deal and you have to accept it. But a FFB tends to lay down more fat than others. This means you have a smaller margin of error in your nutrition. If you aren’t careful could end up putting on three or four pounds of fat with each pound of muscle–and that would get ugly real quick.
Don’t be afraid to gain a bit of fat, but keep track. Measuring and monitoring several areas of your body with a tape measure may be the best bet. If your waist measurement shoots up while your upper arm and chest measurements stay the same, you need to adjust. If the reverse is true, or they increase together, you’re proabably on the right track.
Hopefully you can accomplish this without a food log, and your young enough, and apparently dedicated enough, that you should be able to do just that. I say “hopefully” because you’re a kid and you don’t want to mess with that if you don’t have too. If you do want to and you’re okay with that, then fine, but otherwise, just eat clean, frequent, and consistent. If you start to lay down too much fat, scale it back–but just a bit. Let there be no doubt though: if you want to build a quality physique, there will be some fat gain.
“Cutting” at your level of development is absurd. It would be like trying to chisel the Statue of David from a pebble. Michelangelo needed a big fuck off slab of marble to start with. And so do you.
To sum up: just have fun with the weights, be a kid, eat decent, be active, don’t obsess but be mindful, than have some more fun.
I just read an article from JB i should be getting around 3100 calories according to the article so i guess i just need to build a diet around that… the routine isnt complicated for me… i still feel its too little volume though…
also is there like a mathematical equation i could use to figure out my 5repmax 10repmax,etc???
[quote]matsm21 wrote:
don’t worry if your terribly weak, everyones gotta start somewhere. A piece of advice I could give you though, is to use PERFECT form on your exercises. don’t feel like you have to use a lot of weight and thus sacrifice form. once your form is down, then add weight. It will make the workout much more effective. [/quote]
will do, but like should i make sure i get in an extra rep each week, or something like that…?
Keep a lifting log and each week try to improve by 1 pound or 1 more rep in each lift.
At least that’s a general rule of thumb I like to follow for the more important lifts (like the big three)
I forget where I read this, but assume I gave credit to the writer on this website who mentions this.
Hey AntiDeath,
You are in the right direction, but still have some lingering ideas that will hurt you. Do BBB as is! If you are better equipped to make a program than Chad, you would not need to post because you’d already have the physique you want. More volume is NOT needed in BBB. Bottom line is that you don’t know enough yet. You will in a year or so.
As for Dr. B, he is the shit for sure, but don’t go from the calories you are used to, to his guide all at once. Use his Massive Eating total as a guide, not a law. Start by cleaning up the diet (if you need), then adding calories gradually (maybe 200-300 a week for two weeks at a time). And yes, use appearance as your guide. If you shoot for one pound a week in weight gain and in three months you look fat, you probably are. So instead of adding a set number of weight, add a set number of calories per day. Then observe the results. If you didn’t gain any weight, add more. If you are gaining and it is muscle, but not much yet, add more. Do this until you are gaining but not getting obviously soft. And always adjust your calories according to Dr. B’s guide, don’t add crap.
By the way, good job on coming here. That said, people like you are still a dime a dozen, people that finish what they start are rare… and they get laid by hotter women, get better jobs and have way better vacations/adventures. So finish.
Rolo.