I was a straight core lifts guy that never directly focused on my arms like having an “arms day” at the gym… two years later my arms, biceps inparticular are lagging behind the rest of my body development 
[quote]LilDaDDyDreW wrote:
I was a straight core lifts guy that never directly focused on my arms like having an “arms day” at the gym… two years later my arms, biceps inparticular are lagging behind the rest of my body development :([/quote]
Surprise 
[quote]If my biceps are getting a huge pump from back exercises to the point that I don’t need to train them directly…I am doing the back exercises fucking wrong.
[/quote]
I agree. I just switched to a program on here where I’m not doing any direct bicep work and everything is growing A LOT, but my biceps are seriously lagging. Maybe it’s genetic, maybe it’s in the technique people are using on their back exercises, but I can do back exercises all day and not really feel it in my bi’s. The one exception is chin ups, but I don’t have a weight belt to add to my bodyweight, so it’s still not as effective as curls for me.
lmfao
i <3 when Prof X goes off on random tandoms, tearing through 170 pounders like Godzilla does through skyscrapers
@Crod
90 pound alternate curls IS a lot, for anyone.
theres certain weights that arent really heavy, but everyone is just kinda weak, when you weigh 160 pounds benching 225 is a big step but its not universally heavy.
if you have a 4/5/6 you are strong, i dont care if some asshole says you arent cause he has a 4.5/6/7 it just means hes stronger than you.
if you alt curl 90s you are strong, i dont think anyone can dispute that.
[quote]Der Candy wrote:
Beginners should be able to add a significant amount of muscle without a lot of fat providing they are doing more than curling dildos.[/quote]
hey, theres some really big dildos, i bet they got one that weighs 90 pounds.
[quote]Zito75Rag15 wrote:
I appreciate all of your posts, I just wanted to ask another question. If I am suppose to gain more weight to be able to see gains what can I do to gain the weight but not to gain fat?
I try not to eat any carbs after 4 or 5pm and I drink protein shakes but I feel like I am still not getting enough protein. Any thoughts?[/quote]
For some reason it makes me really suspicious that you can bench press 110 pound dumbbells and your asking questions of somebody less experienced.
Okay this thread pissed me off enough to make my first post.
I’ve only been lifting for a year and a half, and because of the bullshit internet I wasted at least the first year of my training (at least from the point of view of growing.) Sure, I got a fair bit stronger but nowhere near took advantage of the newbie gains I could have had.
Before I started training I weighed 185lbs, one year later I weighed 185lbs. I used to think to myself, Jeez i’m doing super duper fucking drop set this and wave load that, i’m trying to use perfect super duper form with girly little weights. I was making sure my macronutrient breakdown was spot on. In fact I even went through a low carb phase b/c the bullshit internet told me “carbs were evil.”
And guess what like you, I RARELY trained my arms, because of bullshit I had read OVER and OVER again about “compound, compound compound.” and “machines are evil”
The only benefit I received from my first year of training was a moderate strength foundation but my appearance changed very little. In hindsight it has taught me how much I want it though, simply because I could fail for a whole year, and still keep trying (misguidedly) depite looking no different.
after one year my 1rep maxes were
Deadlift 410lbs
Squat 300lbs - Deep 350lbs if i don’t quite go to parrellel.
Bench - 205lbs/ w good form … quarter bench 240lbs
but i looked NO different.
I then had to seriously evaluate what I was doing. For whatever reason it’s all too easy to feel superior b/c you are doing xyz program that xyz trainer prescribed, or simply because you ‘know’ a lot. I just couldn’t bring myself to face the simple truth that I was failing in my goals.
Unfortunately it took me a whole year to realise the simple truth that you’ve just got to eat, and that was only 3/4 months ago. But in just the last three/four months I have gained 17kilos. 40 pounds.
Sure i know I have a higher bodyfat, but who gives a shit, i’m hardly obese, my waist size has only gone from 33-34.5 inches, and I aint fkin stopping till it hits 38-40 and not even then as long as I can still feel my hip bones / don’t LOOK fat)
Anyway after just the last three months I have gained close to two inches on my arms from a paltry 14inches-16inches, and my lifts are currently
Deadlift 1rm 485
Squat 370 w/good form
Bench 265lbs w/good form.
And you know what I also started curling and doing “EVIL” isolation exercises in the last 3 month period, and my arms HAVE GROWN!!
I can tell you the only thing that shocks me is how SMALL i still look, i thought 220lbs would be huge, and it is for some really fortunate people with great muscle bellies and insertion points (ie the one more rep guy i’ve seen in the T-cell—CAN NOT believe that guy is only 160lbs or something, i look like an anorexic teen girl at that weight) But mere mortals like me are going to have to be heavier A LOT heavier for the same effect.
Sure genetics do play a role and mine are pretty shite for bodybuilding
(wide pelvis, very high calve attachments, 2.5 inch gap between my bicep insertion and elbow, high tricep attachment, narrow clavicles, small wrists ( my wrists are only 6.3 inches!)
But they don’t stop me from getting bigger and stronger, and nor should they stop anyone else. Because it really is quite simple, painfully fucking simple.
EAT EAT EAT
I’ve been chugging down 4500-6500 calories every day for the last 3 months and somehow i’m not obese yet, (as some authors would likely be horrified, hell i look 20x better. So don’t be afraid…
EAT EAT EAT AND CURL AND WORK ALL YOUR BODY PARTS!!!
[quote]Alex-L wrote:
Okay this thread pissed me off enough to make my first post.
I’ve only been lifting for a year and a half, and because of the bullshit internet I wasted at least the first year of my training (at least from the point of view of growing.) Sure, I got a fair bit stronger but nowhere near took advantage of the newbie gains I could have had.
Before I started training I weighed 185lbs, one year later I weighed 185lbs. I used to think to myself, Jeez i’m doing super duper fucking drop set this and wave load that, i’m trying to use perfect super duper form with girly little weights. I was making sure my macronutrient breakdown was spot on. In fact I even went through a low carb phase b/c the bullshit internet told me “carbs were evil.”
And guess what like you, I RARELY trained my arms, because of bullshit I had read OVER and OVER again about “compound, compound compound.” and “machines are evil”
The only benefit I received from my first year of training was a moderate strength foundation but my appearance changed very little. In hindsight it has taught me how much I want it though, simply because I could fail for a whole year, and still keep trying (misguidedly) depite looking no different.
after one year my 1rep maxes were
Deadlift 410lbs
Squat 300lbs - Deep 350lbs if i don’t quite go to parrellel.
Bench - 205lbs/ w good form … quarter bench 240lbs
but i looked NO different.
I then had to seriously evaluate what I was doing. For whatever reason it’s all too easy to feel superior b/c you are doing xyz program that xyz trainer prescribed, or simply because you ‘know’ a lot. I just couldn’t bring myself to face the simple truth that I was failing in my goals.
Unfortunately it took me a whole year to realise the simple truth that you’ve just got to eat, and that was only 3/4 months ago. But in just the last three/four months I have gained 17kilos. 40 pounds.
Sure i know I have a higher bodyfat, but who gives a shit, i’m hardly obese, my waist size has only gone from 33-34.5 inches, and I aint fkin stopping till it hits 38-40 and not even then as long as I can still feel my hip bones / don’t LOOK fat)
Anyway after just the last three months I have gained close to two inches on my arms from a paltry 14inches-16inches, and my lifts are currently
Deadlift 1rm 485
Squat 370 w/good form
Bench 265lbs w/good form.
And you know what I also started curling and doing “EVIL” isolation exercises in the last 3 month period, and my arms HAVE GROWN!!
I can tell you the only thing that shocks me is how SMALL i still look, i thought 220lbs would be huge, and it is for some really fortunate people with great muscle bellies and insertion points (ie the one more rep guy i’ve seen in the T-cell—CAN NOT believe that guy is only 160lbs or something, i look like an anorexic teen girl at that weight) But mere mortals like me are going to have to be heavier A LOT heavier for the same effect.
Sure genetics do play a role and mine are pretty shite for bodybuilding
(wide pelvis, very high calve attachments, 2.5 inch gap between my bicep insertion and elbow, high tricep attachment, narrow clavicles, small wrists ( my wrists are only 6.3 inches!)
But they don’t stop me from getting bigger and stronger, and nor should they stop anyone else. Because it really is quite simple, painfully fucking simple.
EAT EAT EAT
I’ve been chugging down 4500-6500 calories every day for the last 3 months and somehow i’m not obese yet, (as some authors would likely be horrified, hell i look 20x better. So don’t be afraid…
EAT EAT EAT AND CURL AND WORK ALL YOUR BODY PARTS!!!
[/quote]
That is so weird. You had some pretty big numbers after a year, except your bench was pretty low. How tall are you? I think the compound people just hate to see people go do one set of seated rows (with bad form of course) and then 8 sets of curls.
[quote]Zito75Rag15 wrote:
I appreciate all of your posts, I just wanted to ask another question. If I am suppose to gain more weight to be able to see gains what can I do to gain the weight but not to gain fat? I try not to eat any carbs after 4 or 5pm and I drink protein shakes but I feel like I am still not getting enough protein. Any thoughts?[/quote]
Self assess yourself to see your caloric and nutrient needs, add a surplus enough to see gains but not so excessive to accumulate much fat.
Do direct arms work, be sure the workload is just enough too.
My bench is a disaster… in fact all pressing movements I struggle on … and excel on all pulling movements by comparison. I have really really long legs and a very very short torso + my arm span is greater than my height, dk if that has anything to do with it.
either way i struggle military pressing 145lbs (my vertical pushing is even worse than my bench)
but pulling movements row/deadlift have always been far easier for me.
After a couple of weeks in the gym i could deadlift 300, I really don’t see what the big deal their is.
Some people can get big arms without curls, most can’t.
I bought into the whole “curls are for frat boys dogma” and it messed me up.
I can’t remember who said it, but an authour here said “worry about big arms when you can do chinups with 50lbs attached.”
Flash forward a little…I can do weighted chinups with 80lbs attached to me…but I have tiny biceps. This is more because of me not eating enough food, but still, my arms are much smaller in relation to my torso.
[quote]Corrosion wrote:
Some people can get big arms without curls, most can’t.
I bought into the whole “curls are for frat boys dogma” and it messed me up.
I can’t remember who said it, but an authour here said “worry about big arms when you can do chinups with 50lbs attached.”
Flash forward a little…I can do weighted chinups with 80lbs attached to me…but I have tiny biceps. This is more because of me not eating enough food, but still, my arms are much smaller in relation to my torso.[/quote]
Better than developing bicep tendonitis from trying to turn chins into an arm-exercise.
And if people feel their bicep working a whole lot/get sore/etc on/from back work even without trying to pull with their bis… Then something isn’t right.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
And if people feel their bicep working a whole lot/get sore/etc on/from back work even without trying to pull with their bis… Then something isn’t right.
[/quote]
How is something not right with that? Your biceps are in the line of pull for chin-ups and rows, it’d be pretty hard not to feel them. Try doing some heavy bent-over rows with your biceps NOT contracting. It just doesn’t happen.
[quote]sebbie wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
And if people feel their bicep working a whole lot/get sore/etc on/from back work even without trying to pull with their bis… Then something isn’t right.
How is something not right with that? Your biceps are in the line of pull for chin-ups and rows, it’d be pretty hard not to feel them. Try doing some heavy bent-over rows with your biceps NOT contracting. It just doesn’t happen.[/quote]
Really now?
Learn how to pull with your back… There’s a reason quite a few large people don’t do full ROM chins either but stick to the bottom part, and that’s certainly not lack of strength…
As for BO rows, if your bicep really work on these (Edit: past light stabilizing, that is) then your forearms are breaking 90 degrees all the time… Good luck BO rowing 350-400+ for 5+ and not ending up with some tendon issue or a tear.
Shit, good luck even getting to these weights when your biceps become a main-mover on that lift…
I’m not trying to insult you here, mind you, just saying.
Interestingly, MK has recently mentioned some things (not about the injuries, but form and keeping the bis out) in his log… Now if you don’t trust me, how about him? You don’t end up rowing 300 lbs with one arm for 7 reps by being ignorant when it comes to rowing technique:
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/training-logs.asp?qid=89100&tid=126
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
sebbie wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
And if people feel their bicep working a whole lot/get sore/etc on/from back work even without trying to pull with their bis… Then something isn’t right.
How is something not right with that? Your biceps are in the line of pull for chin-ups and rows, it’d be pretty hard not to feel them. Try doing some heavy bent-over rows with your biceps NOT contracting. It just doesn’t happen.
Really now?
Learn how to pull with your back… There’s a reason quite a few large people don’t do full ROM chins either but stick to the bottom part, and that’s certainly not lack of strength…
As for BO rows, if your bicep really work on these (Edit: past light stabilizing, that is) then your forearms are breaking 90 degrees all the time… Good luck BO rowing 350-400+ for 5+ and not ending up with some tendon issue or a tear.
Shit, good luck even getting to these weights when your biceps become a main-mover on that lift…
I’m not trying to insult you here, mind you, just saying.
Interestingly, MK has recently mentioned some things (not about the injuries, but form and keeping the bis out) in his log… Now if you don’t trust me, how about him? You don’t end up rowing 300 lbs with one arm for 7 reps by being ignorant when it comes to rowing technique:
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/training-logs.asp?qid=89100&tid=126
[/quote]
I never said that your biceps should be a prime mover, but my point is that they definately do some work during any rows, no matter how much you try to minimise their involvement, because simply put, during a row your elbow flexes, and that’s bicep motion right there. Not ‘light stabilising’. So your biceps DO work during a row, no matter how much you try and ‘pull with your back’. Of course the volume, technique and intensity of your rowing will dictate just how hard they work, but the point is they do beyond just stabilisation.
[quote]sebbie wrote:
I never said that your biceps should be a prime mover, but my point is that they definately do some work during any rows, no matter how much you try to minimise their involvement, because simply put, during a row your elbow flexes, and that’s bicep motion right there. Not ‘light stabilising’. So your biceps DO work during a row, no matter how much you try and ‘pull with your back’. Of course the volume, technique and intensity of your rowing will dictate just how hard they work, but the point is they do beyond just stabilisation.[/quote]
Your biceps flex to bend arm at the elbow in a curl etc, but during a row, were your forearms are supposed to be perpendicular to the floor, there is not really much reason for your biceps to try to bend the elbow now, is there?
Your elbows will bend by themselves simply because your lats and rear delts etc bring your upper arm into a position parallel to the floor. If Gravity takes care of bending the arm at the elbow that for you, why would you actively try to bend it?
Your biceps and triceps are just stabilizing the weight some to keep it from swinging forward or backward, which it shouldn’t really do all that much anyway.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Corrosion wrote:
Some people can get big arms without curls, most can’t.
I bought into the whole “curls are for frat boys dogma” and it messed me up.
I can’t remember who said it, but an authour here said “worry about big arms when you can do chinups with 50lbs attached.”
Flash forward a little…I can do weighted chinups with 80lbs attached to me…but I have tiny biceps. This is more because of me not eating enough food, but still, my arms are much smaller in relation to my torso.
Better than developing bicep tendonitis from trying to turn chins into an arm-exercise.
And if people feel their bicep working a whole lot/get sore/etc on/from back work even without trying to pull with their bis… Then something isn’t right.
[/quote]
I agree with you, I wasn’t doing them as an arm exercise per se, I was just pointing out their side effects, physique-wise. I was brainwashed by articles to think that arm work was a waste of time.
[quote]Alex-L wrote:
Okay this thread pissed me off enough to make my first post.
I’ve only been lifting for a year and a half, and because of the bullshit internet I wasted at least the first year of my training (at least from the point of view of growing.) Sure, I got a fair bit stronger but nowhere near took advantage of the newbie gains I could have had.
Before I started training I weighed 185lbs, one year later I weighed 185lbs. I used to think to myself, Jeez i’m doing super duper fucking drop set this and wave load that, i’m trying to use perfect super duper form with girly little weights. I was making sure my macronutrient breakdown was spot on. In fact I even went through a low carb phase b/c the bullshit internet told me “carbs were evil.”
And guess what like you, I RARELY trained my arms, because of bullshit I had read OVER and OVER again about “compound, compound compound.” and “machines are evil”
The only benefit I received from my first year of training was a moderate strength foundation but my appearance changed very little. In hindsight it has taught me how much I want it though, simply because I could fail for a whole year, and still keep trying (misguidedly) depite looking no different.
after one year my 1rep maxes were
Deadlift 410lbs
Squat 300lbs - Deep 350lbs if i don’t quite go to parrellel.
Bench - 205lbs/ w good form … quarter bench 240lbs
but i looked NO different.
I then had to seriously evaluate what I was doing. For whatever reason it’s all too easy to feel superior b/c you are doing xyz program that xyz trainer prescribed, or simply because you ‘know’ a lot. I just couldn’t bring myself to face the simple truth that I was failing in my goals.
Unfortunately it took me a whole year to realise the simple truth that you’ve just got to eat, and that was only 3/4 months ago. But in just the last three/four months I have gained 17kilos. 40 pounds.
Sure i know I have a higher bodyfat, but who gives a shit, i’m hardly obese, my waist size has only gone from 33-34.5 inches, and I aint fkin stopping till it hits 38-40 and not even then as long as I can still feel my hip bones / don’t LOOK fat)
Anyway after just the last three months I have gained close to two inches on my arms from a paltry 14inches-16inches, and my lifts are currently
Deadlift 1rm 485
Squat 370 w/good form
Bench 265lbs w/good form.
And you know what I also started curling and doing “EVIL” isolation exercises in the last 3 month period, and my arms HAVE GROWN!!
I can tell you the only thing that shocks me is how SMALL i still look, i thought 220lbs would be huge, and it is for some really fortunate people with great muscle bellies and insertion points (ie the one more rep guy i’ve seen in the T-cell—CAN NOT believe that guy is only 160lbs or something, i look like an anorexic teen girl at that weight) But mere mortals like me are going to have to be heavier A LOT heavier for the same effect.
Sure genetics do play a role and mine are pretty shite for bodybuilding
(wide pelvis, very high calve attachments, 2.5 inch gap between my bicep insertion and elbow, high tricep attachment, narrow clavicles, small wrists ( my wrists are only 6.3 inches!)
But they don’t stop me from getting bigger and stronger, and nor should they stop anyone else. Because it really is quite simple, painfully fucking simple.
EAT EAT EAT
I’ve been chugging down 4500-6500 calories every day for the last 3 months and somehow i’m not obese yet, (as some authors would likely be horrified, hell i look 20x better. So don’t be afraid…
EAT EAT EAT AND CURL AND WORK ALL YOUR BODY PARTS!!!
[/quote]
Wow, that describes my experience down to a t… As in, I literally could have written the exact same thing, arm progress in the last three months and all.
At this point my pressing/pulling imbalance is a little more pronounced though. I rackpull 700lbs from the knees for solid reps, and my bench is probably only ~275lbs.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
sebbie wrote:
Your biceps flex to bend arm at the elbow in a curl etc, but during a row, were your forearms are supposed to be perpendicular to the floor, there is not really much reason for your biceps to try to bend the elbow now, is there?
Your elbows will bend by themselves simply because your lats and rear delts etc bring your upper arm into a position parallel to the floor. If Gravity takes care of bending the arm at the elbow that for you, why would you actively try to bend it?
Your biceps and triceps are just stabilizing the weight some to keep it from swinging forward or backward, which it shouldn’t really do all that much anyway.
[/quote]
Look, regardless of how much you try to minimize their involvement, your elbows WILL work in a row. That’s why its a compound movement, it’s not just using your back muscles. Whilst obviously if you are rowing right your back will be the prime mover, your biceps still work and get stimulation more than just stabilisation. Alternatively you have some weeeird-ass nervous system which stops your biceps from contracting on rows in any way. Who knows 