Nobel Prize Laureate Attacked

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:

One religion has stopped acting barbarous. One has not. They are not equal.

No on could have said it better. Well stated.

And there is a reason for this “inequality” - instead of the usual “Christians once did mean things to people some 800 years ago”, why not ask what has caused the “inequality”?

Islam became barorous. Originally, it was much more civilized than the western world of Christianity.

And I’m NOT saying that the Islamic extremism today is acceptable. It is NOT.

Like I said before, I’m just stating that being Islamic does not make one evil, just like being Christian doesn’t make one evil.

And before Luther and Newton (and arguably Guttenburg), the Bible WAS NOT open for interpretation, because no one learned to read the damn thing. So that argument is shot.[/quote]

You mean that the “reformation and the fact that books became more avilable took lot of the power away from the popery”-argument is shot… beacause… you state the same?!

logic.

42

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

Islam became barorous. Originally, it was much more civilized than the western world of Christianity.[/quote]

Seriously? On what reading of history? Is it the often peddled shibboleth of Islamic uber-prosperity during the Dark Ages?

So let’s take your theory at face value - what caused the backslide into barbarism when they had previously progressed beyond it?

You keep on - in a fit of multicultural political correctness - trying to compare apples to apples, when there is no such comparison.

Stop assuming that because they are both religions, their history and character are the same.

Flat out false. The Orthodox church didn’t believe in scriptural literalism, nor did the Catholic church. Both predated Luther, both had different views of what the Bible said and meant (see Orthodox Christians rejection of sola scriptura and the adherence to Sacred Tradition).

The Reformation recognized sola scriptura.

So this idea - that Biblical interpretation was so fixed and rigid as to be comparable to Islam - is defied by ordinary history of Christianity.

43

[quote]lixy wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
lixy wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
True Islam advocates violence, is political in nature, embraces dominance, tortures its own followers. Lixy if you were honest with yourself, or those on this thread, you would admit “true” Islam does not contain a seed of tolerance for other belief systems… Certainly not towards Jews. Not as taught by that prophet of yours.

I’m not gonna dwell again into how you are totally mistaken and don’t know shit about Islam. Instead, since you seem convinced by whoever told you that like, let’s have a more constructive talk.

For the sake of argument, let us assume that you are right. Two possibilities exist then: Either we (I’ll speak for all the Muslims on the forum) have been duped into adopting a religion that advocates violence without our knowledge, or we are all lying and conceiling that it advocates torture, dominance and all the other things you accuse it of. Which in you opinion is it?

P.S: I’m solely interested in Tokaya’s take on it.

Lixy,

What do you base your assertion that I don’t know shit about Islam on? Every once in a while, I call you out on your horseshit (“I’m going to Sudan to see for myself this summer what is really happening”). Or in one post you cited the war in Afghanistan was legitimate, then in the next, the soldiers fighting the taliban over there, are “just as bad as terrorists”…

You are obviously in denial about the carnage meted out on a daily basis by those who claim to adhere to that religion. “Tiny minority” or not, this small group of “bad apples” as you refer to them have seemingly with relative ease gotten the “moderates” to stand on the sidelines while they wreak havoc on the rest of the world. I don’t trust apologists like you or organizations such as CAIR…

Folks like you spend too much time whining about Imams getting thrown off planes in Minneapolis, or episodes of 24 portraying middle eastern men participating in terror plots, than you do confronting the unsavory facts about the state of your religion.

When you or other Islamist says ?peaceful religion?, you mean a religion whose ultimate goal is peace upon earth - when all non-believers submit to it. ?Islam? does not translate to ?peace? as some people falsely believe.

Its meaning is ?submission;? - that is, submission to Allah and to Islam, of all peoples of the earth. Look at the violence these islamofacists are propogating all over the world, UK, Spain, Thailand, Somalia, Sudan, Kashmir, Bangladesh, the Philippines,

This is the mission of Islam - using violence against non-believers to achieve that goal is absolutely condoned and is a stated legitimate tenet of Islam.

I’m not fooled by folks like you. Folks - irrespective of their position on the war in Iraq - are slowly waking up to the threat of radical islam.

We all know your position on Islam. I wanted your opinion on something eles. You dodged it with your usual ranting about how Islam advocates violence and the usual speech. So, I’ll ask again (in bold this time):

For the sake of argument, let us assume that you are right. Two possibilities exist then: Either we (I’ll speak for all the Muslims on the forum) have been duped into adopting a religion that advocates violence without our knowledge, or we are all lying and conceiling that it advocates torture, dominance and all the other things you accuse it of. Which in you opinion is it?

Can I get an answer please?[/quote]

Lixy, you don’t speak for all muslims, only yourself. I don’t think what I posted was a “rant” rather my personal point of view about radical islam, and your consistent proclivity to be an apologist for it. No. you don’t speak ofr all muslims as far as I’m concerned. Just a moral relativist that is quite myopic about the threat caused by “a few bad apples” as you like to call them.

Look at the news this week and the body totals racked up by the islamofacists. Slitting throats and beheading people are not the actions of honorable men, especially as in Turkey or the Philippines. These victims were guilty only of belonging to another faith. None of this has anything to do with Iraq, Afghanistan, Gaza, or the West Bank…

Apologists for Islam will claim that such actions are not typical of Islam, yet these people are either deliberately lying or they are totally ignorant of Islam?s history.

Perhaps the rhetoric of war makes you and other self described pacifists uncomfortable. But history teaches that the false comfort of complacency is a dangerous indulgence in the face of a determined enemy. Radical Islam is a huge problem Lixy. It does beg the question doesn’t it? Why the hell are so many people wanting to get out of countries being run under Sharia law? Why do all these Saudis that despise the US want to study in the US, (or Morocans want to move to Sweden?)

You do a lot of apologizing for the actions of violent muslims, starting every post with an excuse about the US, or Israel…

By the way, you want Isreal to return to its pre-war borders correct. Do you demand the same thing of France - as compared to its pre-war border with Germany?

Crickets,

44

Lixy,

Can you help me understand why anyone would want to embrace a religion that promotes this? What is the hang up with muslims and women for god’s sake?

http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

The challenge for you is to answer without utilizing the words “US”, “Bush”, “Israel”, or “Gaza”. No, just explain how why this is a desirable society to live within, and why you advocate the religion that enforces it.

In other words, what is it about this culture that should make it so appealing to the rest of us that have reservations about radical islam?

Thanks in advance… By the way, if the Imams of your mosgue knew you were posting on a site such as T-Nation, how long would it take for there to be a fatwa against your staying alive?

Just curious. Please educate me on your tolerant religion.

45

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
Lixy,

Can you help me understand why anyone would want to embrace a religion that promotes this? What is the hang up with muslims and women for god’s sake?

http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

The challenge for you is to answer without utilizing the words “US”, “Bush”, “Israel”, or “Gaza”. No, just explain how why this is a desirable society to live within, and why you advocate the religion that enforces it. [/quote]

Again, you didn’t answer my question which is pretty clear. And when you say that I can’t speak for the majority of Muslims, make sure to back up your claim. Try to come up with a single Muslim on the forum who says that his/her religion advocates violence or anything of the sort.

I can’t take you seriously when all you have are idiotic websites that distort the message of Muhammad.

Here’s what other scholars think of R. Spencer:

“Khaleel Mohammed, Louay M. Safi and Carl Ernst assert that Spencer’s scholarship and interpretations of Islam are fundamentally flawed - that he supports preconceived notions through selection bias - that he lacks genuine understanding and; that ‘he has no academic training in Islamic studies whatsoever; his M.A. degree was in the field of early Christianity’.[9] [10] [5] For example, critics have objected to what they see as Spencer’s method of taking some Muslim interpretations and then using them to characterize all Muslims or what he implies is the real Islam; cf. for example Mark LeVine [11]. They object to what they describe as Spencer’s method of taking a position they deem to be radical (on apostasy, women, etc) and then attribute that position to all of Islam, rather than situating it within ongoing discussions.[5] Khaleel Mohammed and Spencer have had detailed discussions on Front Page Magazine.[12][10] [13][14] Carl Ernst and William Kenan have called him an Islamophobe.[15]. They also allege that Spencer’s publications are not scholarly because they are not blind peer reviewed and not published by any university press.”

Here’s also something you might wanna ponder:

http://haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=801449&contrassID=19

46

[quote]lixy wrote:
evil.

Wrong. All Arab governments are composed of scumbags, be they the illegitimate dictators in over 90% of them or the democratically elected Islamists that showed up in Lebanon, Palestine or previously in Algeria.

I see America as a (as opposed to the) great evil because of its history of interventionism and its hundreds of bases around the world.

[/quote]

On the one hand, 90% or more of Islamic governments are scumbags. But the leader of the Free World is ‘a great evil’?

Fascinating…

47

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Tokoya wrote:

Folks like you spend too much time whining about Imams getting thrown off planes in Minneapolis, or episodes of 24 portraying middle eastern men participating in terror plots, than you do confronting the unsavory facts about the state of your religion.

When you or other Islamist says ?peaceful religion?, you mean a religion whose ultimate goal is peace upon earth - when all non-believers submit to it. ?Islam? does not translate to ?peace? as some people falsely believe.

Its meaning is ?submission;? - that is, submission to Allah and to Islam, of all peoples of the earth. Look at the violence these islamofacists are propogating all over the world, UK, Spain, Thailand, Somalia, Sudan, Kashmir, Bangladesh, the Philippines,

This is the mission of Islam - using violence against non-believers to achieve that goal is absolutely condoned and is a stated legitimate tenet of Islam.

I’m not fooled by folks like you. Folks - irrespective of their position on the war in Iraq - are slowly waking up to the threat of radical islam.

Holy Shit, Word Up! Well said!
[/quote]

Yup. How Islam proposes to have peace by having everyone give up their free will, to submit, is something that more people should know about. Freedom to become a robot, at the will of some whacked out IMAM interpreter of the Holy Word is no freedom at all. It is death.

48

[quote]lixy wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
Lixy,

Can you help me understand why anyone would want to embrace a religion that promotes this? What is the hang up with muslims and women for god’s sake?

http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

The challenge for you is to answer without utilizing the words “US”, “Bush”, “Israel”, or “Gaza”. No, just explain how why this is a desirable society to live within, and why you advocate the religion that enforces it.

Again, you didn’t answer my question which is pretty clear. And when you say that I can’t speak for the majority of Muslims, make sure to back up your claim. Try to come up with a single Muslim on the forum who says that his/her religion advocates violence or anything of the sort.

I can’t take you seriously when all you have are idiotic websites that distort the message of Muhammad.

Here’s what other scholars think of R. Spencer:

“Khaleel Mohammed, Louay M. Safi and Carl Ernst assert that Spencer’s scholarship and interpretations of Islam are fundamentally flawed - that he supports preconceived notions through selection bias - that he lacks genuine understanding and; that ‘he has no academic training in Islamic studies whatsoever; his M.A. degree was in the field of early Christianity’.[9] [10] [5] For example, critics have objected to what they see as Spencer’s method of taking some Muslim interpretations and then using them to characterize all Muslims or what he implies is the real Islam; cf. for example Mark LeVine [11]. They object to what they describe as Spencer’s method of taking a position they deem to be radical (on apostasy, women, etc) and then attribute that position to all of Islam, rather than situating it within ongoing discussions.[5] Khaleel Mohammed and Spencer have had detailed discussions on Front Page Magazine.[12][10] [13][14] Carl Ernst and William Kenan have called him an Islamophobe.[15]. They also allege that Spencer’s publications are not scholarly because they are not blind peer reviewed and not published by any university press.”

Here’s also something you might wanna ponder:

http://haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=801449&contrassID=19[/quote]

Lixy,

I simply stated you are in denial about the very violent pathology impacting your religion of peace…

Anyway, now that you are a self appointed spokesperson for all muslims, can you weigh in on the Hirsi Ali controversy amongst radical muslims… They seem to want her dead.

Hirsi Ali caused uproar by calling Islam backward and by branding the prophet Mohammad a pedophile and a tyrant.

The film?s director Theo van Gogh was gunned down on an Amsterdam street in 2004 by a Dutch-Moroccan, who stabbed a note to his body addressed to Hirsi Ali warning she would be next.

Lixy, since you speak for muslims, can you let her know how sorry all of you are for all this?

Thank

49

[quote]lixy wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
Lixy,

Can you help me understand why anyone would want to embrace a religion that promotes this? What is the hang up with muslims and women for god’s sake?

http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

The challenge for you is to answer without utilizing the words “US”, “Bush”, “Israel”, or “Gaza”. No, just explain how why this is a desirable society to live within, and why you advocate the religion that enforces it.

Again, you didn’t answer my question which is pretty clear. And when you say that I can’t speak for the majority of Muslims, make sure to back up your claim. Try to come up with a single Muslim on the forum who says that his/her religion advocates violence or anything of the sort.

I can’t take you seriously when all you have are idiotic websites that distort the message of Muhammad.

Here’s what other scholars think of R. Spencer:

“Khaleel Mohammed, Louay M. Safi and Carl Ernst assert that Spencer’s scholarship and interpretations of Islam are fundamentally flawed - that he supports preconceived notions through selection bias - that he lacks genuine understanding and; that ‘he has no academic training in Islamic studies whatsoever; his M.A. degree was in the field of early Christianity’.[9] [10] [5] For example, critics have objected to what they see as Spencer’s method of taking some Muslim interpretations and then using them to characterize all Muslims or what he implies is the real Islam; cf. for example Mark LeVine [11]. They object to what they describe as Spencer’s method of taking a position they deem to be radical (on apostasy, women, etc) and then attribute that position to all of Islam, rather than situating it within ongoing discussions.[5] Khaleel Mohammed and Spencer have had detailed discussions on Front Page Magazine.[12][10] [13][14] Carl Ernst and William Kenan have called him an Islamophobe.[15]. They also allege that Spencer’s publications are not scholarly because they are not blind peer reviewed and not published by any university press.”

Here’s also something you might wanna ponder:

http://haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=801449&contrassID=19[/quote]

I answered, quite elaborately too… Why didn’t you respond to that…? Did I hit too close to home…?

50

[quote]lixy wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
Lixy,

Can you help me understand why anyone would want to embrace a religion that promotes this? What is the hang up with muslims and women for god’s sake?

http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

The challenge for you is to answer without utilizing the words “US”, “Bush”, “Israel”, or “Gaza”. No, just explain how why this is a desirable society to live within, and why you advocate the religion that enforces it.

Again, you didn’t answer my question which is pretty clear. And when you say that I can’t speak for the majority of Muslims, make sure to back up your claim. Try to come up with a single Muslim on the forum who says that his/her religion advocates violence or anything of the sort.

I can’t take you seriously when all you have are idiotic websites that distort the message of Muhammad.

Here’s what other scholars think of R. Spencer:

“Khaleel Mohammed, Louay M. Safi and Carl Ernst assert that Spencer’s scholarship and interpretations of Islam are fundamentally flawed - that he supports preconceived notions through selection bias - that he lacks genuine understanding and; that ‘he has no academic training in Islamic studies whatsoever; his M.A. degree was in the field of early Christianity’.[9] [10] [5] For example, critics have objected to what they see as Spencer’s method of taking some Muslim interpretations and then using them to characterize all Muslims or what he implies is the real Islam; cf. for example Mark LeVine [11]. They object to what they describe as Spencer’s method of taking a position they deem to be radical (on apostasy, women, etc) and then attribute that position to all of Islam, rather than situating it within ongoing discussions.[5] Khaleel Mohammed and Spencer have had detailed discussions on Front Page Magazine.[12][10] [13][14] Carl Ernst and William Kenan have called him an Islamophobe.[15]. They also allege that Spencer’s publications are not scholarly because they are not blind peer reviewed and not published by any university press.”

Here’s also something you might wanna ponder:

http://haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=801449&contrassID=19[/quote]

Lixy, I am not sure whether this link is to one of those pesky web sites that “distorts” the message of your supposedly peaceful prophet.

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Security&loid=8.0.408604684&par=0

Just curious to hear your views on what it is about muslims that they have such a hang up about women?

Please bridge this gap of misunderstanding on my part, since you are the self appointed spokesperson for all muslims (at least on T-Nation?)

51

Lixy makes a quit einteresting point though… In Israel, religious motivated violence against women will be investigated by the police, will be commented in the press. In Ethiopia… or Indonesia… or Sudan… the women aren’t that lucky…

52

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
Lixy makes a quit einteresting point though… In Israel, religious motivated violence against women will be investigated by the police, will be commented in the press. In Ethiopia… or Indonesia… or Sudan… the women aren’t that lucky… [/quote]

Yes. A good point indeed. Here is an answer to the problem between the genders for the folks in the middle east - from the perspective of a rather unlikely source:

Only problem is that she is likely to lose her head for being so “uppity”…

I wish her luck.

53

[quote]Adamsson wrote:

Lixy makes a quit einteresting point though… In Israel, religious motivated violence against women will be investigated by the police, will be commented in the press. In Ethiopia… or Indonesia… or Sudan… the women aren’t that lucky… [/quote]

Mulims societies don’t investigate violence against women because…um…of…um…American foreign policy.

Yes, that’s it!

54

Here is an interesting post about the state of affairs in Sweden…

Sounds like there were some “riots in Malmo”…

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2065

Note the comment in the middle of the article by a Minister of Democracy about how he envisions his country’s future:

Jens Orback, Minister for Democracy, Metropolitan Affairs, Integration and Gender Equality from the Social Democratic Party said during a debate in Swedish radio in 2004 that ?We must be open and tolerant towards Islam and Muslims because when we become a minority, they will be so towards us.?

Now that’s what I call denial…

55

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
Here is an interesting post about the state of affairs in Sweden…

Sounds like there were some “riots in Malmo”…

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2065

Note the comment in the middle of the article by a Minister of Democracy about how he envisions his country’s future:

Jens Orback, Minister for Democracy, Metropolitan Affairs, Integration and Gender Equality from the Social Democratic Party said during a debate in Swedish radio in 2004 that ?We must be open and tolerant towards Islam and Muslims because when we become a minority, they will be so towards us.?

Now that’s what I call denial… [/quote]

Absolute denial, the swedish multi-culti experiment has gone so, so SO wrong.

btw, I found a tshirt for lixy:

http://www.cracksmokingshirts.com/html/My_Kid_is_the_Bomb_at_Islam_Elementary_T-shirt.html

56

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
Here is an interesting post about the state of affairs in Sweden…

Sounds like there were some “riots in Malmo”…

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2065
[/quote]

Just a note on the founder of Brusselsjournal; Here’s how Paul Belien, the xenophobic racist describes Belgians of North African descent.

“The predators have teeth and claws. The predators have knives. Starting when they’re small, they learn at their yearly offerings how to cut the throats of warm-blooded livestock. We get sick at the sight of blood, but they don’t. They’re trained and they’re armed. We can’t even carry pepperspray in our pockets. They have switchblades and butchers knives and they know how to use them.”

57

[quote]lixy wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
Here is an interesting post about the state of affairs in Sweden…

Sounds like there were some “riots in Malmo”…

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2065

Just a note on the founder of Brusselsjournal; Here’s how Paul Belien, the xenophobic racist describes Belgians of North African descent.

“The predators have teeth and claws. The predators have knives. Starting when they’re small, they learn at their yearly offerings how to cut the throats of warm-blooded livestock. We get sick at the sight of blood, but they don’t. They’re trained and they’re armed. We can’t even carry pepperspray in our pockets. They have switchblades and butchers knives and they know how to use them.”[/quote]

Lixy,

That part about the throat cutting might have hit too close to home I’m sure. Smiting at the necks is something that has really caught on in parts of radical islam… To Paul Belein’s description sounds like he was describing the way that Mohammed Bouyeri treated Theo van Gogh.

Switching gears, what’s your take on the earlier post about Egypt’s ‘Dr. Ruth’: Let’s talk sex in the Arab world.

What would you say is the over & under on the number of days she has until a fatwa is issued for her head?

I admire her courage…

58

I guess lixy doesen’t want to read my answer… wonder why… :slight_smile:

59

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
lixy wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
Here is an interesting post about the state of affairs in Sweden…

Sounds like there were some “riots in Malmo”…

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2065

Just a note on the founder of Brusselsjournal; Here’s how Paul Belien, the xenophobic racist describes Belgians of North African descent.

“The predators have teeth and claws. The predators have knives. Starting when they’re small, they learn at their yearly offerings how to cut the throats of warm-blooded livestock. We get sick at the sight of blood, but they don’t. They’re trained and they’re armed. We can’t even carry pepperspray in our pockets. They have switchblades and butchers knives and they know how to use them.”

Lixy,

That part about the throat cutting might have hit too close to home I’m sure. Smiting at the necks is something that has really caught on in parts of radical islam… To Paul Belein’s description sounds like he was describing the way that Mohammed Bouyeri treated Theo van Gogh.

Switching gears, what’s your take on the earlier post about Egypt’s ‘Dr. Ruth’: Let’s talk sex in the Arab world.

What would you say is the over & under on the number of days she has until a fatwa is issued for her head?

I admire her courage… [/quote]

Seems like they could use the help:

Man forced to ‘marry’ goat
A Sudanese man has been forced to take a goat as his ‘wife’, after he was caught in a compromising position with the creature.

The goat’s owner, Mr Alifi, said he surprised the man with his goat and took him to a council of elders.

They ordered the man, Mr Tombe, to pay a dowry of 15,000 Sudanese dinars (?25) to Mr Alifi.

“We have given him the goat, and as far as we know they are still together,” Mr Alifi said.

Mr Alifi told a local newspaper that he heard a loud noise late at night and rushed outside to find Mr Tombe with his goat.

“When I asked him: ‘What are you doing there?’, he fell off the back of the goat, so I captured and tied him up.”

Mr Alifi then called elders to decide how to deal with the case.

“They said I should not take him to the police, but rather let him pay a dowry for my goat because he used it as his wife,” Mr Alifi added.

60

[quote]lixy wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
Here is an interesting post about the state of affairs in Sweden…

Sounds like there were some “riots in Malmo”…

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2065

Just a note on the founder of Brusselsjournal; Here’s how Paul Belien, the xenophobic racist describes Belgians of North African descent.

“The predators have teeth and claws. The predators have knives. Starting when they’re small, they learn at their yearly offerings how to cut the throats of warm-blooded livestock. We get sick at the sight of blood, but they don’t. They’re trained and they’re armed. We can’t even carry pepperspray in our pockets. They have switchblades and butchers knives and they know how to use them.”[/quote]

It is interesting how lixy ALWAYS… and WITHOUT exepctions… attacks the man, not the ball. He is unable to argue in a civil manner, and keeps attacking the man, instead of picking apart the man’s arguments.

why is this?