[quote]UtahLama wrote:
The end game is we cannot support this many new people…illegal immigrants cost the government (state and federal) 1153 BILLION dollars a year.
I’m sorry but if your point is correct and the majority of illegals are poor and uneducated, then they are much more likely to reproduce at a high rate and need enormous amounts of public assistance.
I don’t blame them, but it has to be stopped…the system can no longer support it.
[/quote]
So, if we did find a way to end all illegal immigration and hired only citizen workers what do you think would happen to the cost of everything? Imagine an entire workforce of union produce pickers and how much that would drive up the cost of our produce. Imagine how much of that produce would stick around if it were forced to carry the burden of that increased labor. I’m OK with curbing the amount if illegal immigration but we need to first figure out the labor problem or decide as a country that we are either willing to pay more for our food or be OK with our food production going elsewhere.
This report by factcheck.org says the impact is “modest” but doesn’t go further than that.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
The end game is we cannot support this many new people…illegal immigrants cost the government (state and federal) 1153 BILLION dollars a year.
I’m sorry but if your point is correct and the majority of illegals are poor and uneducated, then they are much more likely to reproduce at a high rate and need enormous amounts of public assistance.
I don’t blame them, but it has to be stopped…the system can no longer support it.
[/quote]
So, if we did find a way to end all illegal immigration and hired only citizen workers what do you think would happen to the cost of everything? Imagine an entire workforce of union produce pickers and how much that would drive up the cost of our produce. Imagine how much of that produce would stick around if it were forced to carry the burden of that increased labor. I’m OK with curbing the amount if illegal immigration but we need to first figure out the labor problem or decide as a country that we are either willing to pay more for our food or be OK with our food production going elsewhere.
This report by factcheck.org says the impact is “modest” but doesn’t go further than that.
james[/quote]
I was about to post something similar. Like I said I agree that something must be done but, I think everything is so tangled that it is damn near impossible.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
The end game is we cannot support this many new people…illegal immigrants cost the government (state and federal) 1153 BILLION dollars a year.
I’m sorry but if your point is correct and the majority of illegals are poor and uneducated, then they are much more likely to reproduce at a high rate and need enormous amounts of public assistance.
I don’t blame them, but it has to be stopped…the system can no longer support it.
[/quote]
So, if we did find a way to end all illegal immigration and hired only citizen workers what do you think would happen to the cost of everything? Imagine an entire workforce of union produce pickers and how much that would drive up the cost of our produce. Imagine how much of that produce would stick around if it were forced to carry the burden of that increased labor. I’m OK with curbing the amount if illegal immigration but we need to first figure out the labor problem or decide as a country that we are either willing to pay more for our food or be OK with our food production going elsewhere.
This report by factcheck.org says the impact is “modest” but doesn’t go further than that.
james[/quote]
I am fine with staffing the labor force with immigrants…what I am not fine with is giving them all the entitlements they can suck up, or letting any kid they pop out while they are here become a citizen.
Come work here, pay your taxes, but don’t expect the U.S. to give you handouts…we can not longer afford it.
What exactly did we win? I see this as another encroachment on the rights of individuals and the rights of small communities across America. Look on a map and see where San Luis is. It’s a rinky dink town in the middle of nowhere, Arizona. If the people of that town want to elect her then why shouldn’t they be able to? Best case scenario is that she gets elected, learns English, and does a great job. Worst case is that she gets elected, doesn’t learn English, and does a poor job. Either way the people get what they asked for and not what they are told they have to get.
And why is some guy from Ohio concerned over the happenings in Arizona? What business is it of yours?
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
I am fine with staffing the labor force with immigrants…what I am not fine with is giving them all the entitlements they can suck up, or letting any kid they pop out while they are here become a citizen.
Come work here, pay your taxes, but don’t expect the U.S. to give you handouts…we can not longer afford it.[/quote]
And I’m fine with not allowing them access to our programs too. But to me that’s where we should be starting not with building a wall or putting the National Guard on the border. And definitely not by telling some small town who they can or can’t have on the ballot.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
I am fine with staffing the labor force with immigrants…what I am not fine with is giving them all the entitlements they can suck up, or letting any kid they pop out while they are here become a citizen.
Come work here, pay your taxes, but don’t expect the U.S. to give you handouts…we can not longer afford it.[/quote]
And I’m fine with not allowing them access to our programs too. But to me that’s where we should be starting not with building a wall or putting the National Guard on the border. And definitely not by telling some small town who they can or can’t have on the ballot.
james
[/quote]
I respect your opinion and the logical way you have presented it.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one…IMO this case matters, if it had gone the other way what would stop the same thing from happening in Phoenix?
The whole argument that the “illegal immigrants do jobs that american’s won’t do” is a common fallacy arising from a lack of understanding of supply and demand.
Instead, the truth is that the competition from illegal immigrants pushes the wages lower and because of their “immunity” from minimum wage laws, these illegals are a much more competitive labor force.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
if it had gone the other way what would stop the same thing from happening in Phoenix?
It’s more of a big picture thing.[/quote]
I see what you’re saying and that makes sense to me. But part of me just can’t get away from thinking that if the voters in a community ask for something and it’s not encroaching on civil rights (say if Anahein voted to OK indentured servitude) then why not allow them that freedom?
To me what keeps that from happening in Phoenix are the voters there and the fact that it’s a large enough community to prevent that from happening.
This sounds silly but is it in the formal job description?
[quote]soccerplayer wrote:
The whole argument that the “illegal immigrants do jobs that american’s won’t do” is a common fallacy arising from a lack of understanding of supply and demand.
Instead, the truth is that the competition from illegal immigrants pushes the wages lower and because of their “immunity” from minimum wage laws, these illegals are a much more competitive labor force.[/quote]
I think it’s fair to say that illegal immigrants do the jobs that citizens won’t do at the current pay scale. But you’ve the consumer to thank for that. I mean they demand dirt cheap food and that means wages have to be kept low. But we can’t have low wage jobs in America because the cost of everything is so high (at least partially thanks to easy credit).
It goes back to who is going to do those jobs at that pay rate? If citizens won’t then the illegals will. If you force companies to hire only citizens and these citizens are unionized and paid high wages then our food growers can’t make a profit. If they can’t make a profit then the production goes overseas. So either way your produce is going to get picked by Mexicans.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
if it had gone the other way what would stop the same thing from happening in Phoenix?
It’s more of a big picture thing.[/quote]
I see what you’re saying and that makes sense to me. But part of me just can’t get away from thinking that if the voters in a community ask for something and it’s not encroaching on civil rights (say if Anahein voted to OK indentured servitude) then why not allow them that freedom?
To me what keeps that from happening in Phoenix are the voters there and the fact that it’s a large enough community to prevent that from happening.
This sounds silly but is it in the formal job description?
james
[/quote]
I assume you mean ability to speak english?
The ability to speak english is state law to run for office…she was tested by a language expert and deemed unable to converse in english.
How can she graduate from an American High School and not know English? That boggles my mind…
I’m still of the opinion that it’s up to the community. She’s a U.S. citizen who attended an American High School. Isn’t that part of the “American Dream”?
Hell, there were 10 other candidates in the race so probably didn’t stand too high of a chance to get elected so it might have been a non-issue in any case.
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
How can she graduate from an American High School and not know English? That boggles my mind…
I’m still of the opinion that it’s up to the community. She’s a U.S. citizen who attended an American High School. Isn’t that part of the “American Dream”?
Hell, there were 10 other candidates in the race so probably didn’t stand too high of a chance to get elected so it might have been a non-issue in any case.
james[/quote]
She can understand but does not speak it proficiently in their opinion. It seems to me that this is just because of the issues they see with illegal immigration. Anything that has to do with Latinos is seen as some threat.
Max gave an example of Oscar Hernandez City of Bell mayor, he stated that he could not speak enlgish. Bullshit. He has an accent but, he speaks english.
As I brought up earlier this is an issue that most if not all asian communities have but, becuase it is not wrapped up in the whole illegal immigration issue it is not seen as a problem.
Video of Monterey Parks mayor David Lau. Most Asian council members in his and neighboring cities speak the same way.
For the record I do not mind if they are not proficient in english if the community they are serving speak in other languages.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
And nobody wants to talk about how important all that money that immigrants (both legal and illegal) send back to Mexico…it is a HUGE part of that economy.
Which is why the Mexican government gets all hissy when the U.S. cracks down on illegals…they desperately need that money coming home.
I mean, why else would the mexican government join a lawsuit against the state of Arizona’s new immigration law…when that law is FAR LESS INVASIVE than mexico’s OWN IMMIGRATION LAW.
Riddle me that.[/quote]
I remember working at my first hotel and they did a Social Security number check. Nearly HALF of the housekeeping staff came back with completely different names and some others were deported! I’m not talking about using your middle name instead of your first name or your maiden name instead of your married name, either. I mean Maria Santiago came back as Guadalupe Estevez. I had to relearn everyone’s name after 18 months of calling them their other name. I finally gave up and just reverted back to calling them what I knew them as. [/quote]
Just think how many of those jobs could have gone to citizens and legal workers ?
[/quote]
Exactly! But, man, when we had a company party, they did bring awesome foodz!!! Tres leche cake is awesome!
How about people who want to hold public office be proficient in both languages ? Next problem with that, what if you have a community with multiple cultures ? Monterey Park is Asian, Latino, and White, so do we then require someone to be proficient in all 3 languages ?
How far do we take this bullshit ?
I don’t care if someone has an accent, sometimes my accent comes out, I just want people to be able to legitimately read, write, and speak English. If that makes me racist, excuse me while I yawn.
On a side note, the AZ Supreme Court did rule to keep the lady off the ballot due to her lack of English proficiency.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
And nobody wants to talk about how important all that money that immigrants (both legal and illegal) send back to Mexico…it is a HUGE part of that economy.
Which is why the Mexican government gets all hissy when the U.S. cracks down on illegals…they desperately need that money coming home.
I mean, why else would the mexican government join a lawsuit against the state of Arizona’s new immigration law…when that law is FAR LESS INVASIVE than mexico’s OWN IMMIGRATION LAW.
Riddle me that.[/quote]
I remember working at my first hotel and they did a Social Security number check. Nearly HALF of the housekeeping staff came back with completely different names and some others were deported! I’m not talking about using your middle name instead of your first name or your maiden name instead of your married name, either. I mean Maria Santiago came back as Guadalupe Estevez. I had to relearn everyone’s name after 18 months of calling them their other name. I finally gave up and just reverted back to calling them what I knew them as. [/quote]
Just think how many of those jobs could have gone to citizens and legal workers ?
[/quote]
Exactly! But, man, when we had a company party, they did bring awesome foodz!!! Tres leche cake is awesome! [/quote]
Agreed, and if you are able to find some bomb ass carne asada or carnitas, that is a huge score. I went to a place nearby that was on Anthony Bourdain’s No Reservations, that shit was so good I nearly fell over. 7 miles from my house and I scored.
What exactly did we win? I see this as another encroachment on the rights of individuals and the rights of small communities across America. Look on a map and see where San Luis is. It’s a rinky dink town in the middle of nowhere, Arizona. If the people of that town want to elect her then why shouldn’t they be able to? Best case scenario is that she gets elected, learns English, and does a great job. Worst case is that she gets elected, doesn’t learn English, and does a poor job. Either way the people get what they asked for and not what they are told they have to get.
And why is some guy from Ohio concerned over the happenings in Arizona? What business is it of yours?
james
[/quote]
While I don’t think someone who can’t speak English should be able to hold office in this country I agree with this. The people should get what they ask for. If they are dumb enough to vote for someone who can’t understand the language the laws are written in then they should get what they voted for.
Edit: And if it is against Arizona law to run for office without English proficiency then she should absolutely be barred from running.
What exactly did we win? I see this as another encroachment on the rights of individuals and the rights of small communities across America. Look on a map and see where San Luis is. It’s a rinky dink town in the middle of nowhere, Arizona. If the people of that town want to elect her then why shouldn’t they be able to? Best case scenario is that she gets elected, learns English, and does a great job. Worst case is that she gets elected, doesn’t learn English, and does a poor job. Either way the people get what they asked for and not what they are told they have to get.
And why is some guy from Ohio concerned over the happenings in Arizona? What business is it of yours?
james
[/quote]
Edit: And if it is against Arizona law to run for office without English proficiency then she should absolutely be barred from running.
